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-   -   What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16138)

StevieT 05-11-2009 07:01 AM

What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you
 
Let me start off by saying that as Uke, I am probably more obstinate that a lot of people in my dojo. I'm not saying that I struggle and fight against Tori, but at the same time, I don't give my center away, Tori has to take it. Also, unless Tori asks for something different, I will always give a proper, full-force attack. I do this because I think both Uke and Tori learn more that way.

Anyway, about a month ago I was training with a girl who is a lot more experienced than I am (I've been training about 7 months, she's been Aikido for quite a few years). I forget exactly what technique we were doing, but the attack was a Yokomen and the first movement was a sweeping downwards "block". She was having a really off day. She was not really sweeping far enough to take me off balance and then in her second movement was standing me straight back up. Needless to say, the rest of the technique was not working. The large difference in experience meant I couldn't really help her with what was going wrong.

So she was getting frustrated and she started to get very "hitty". After a few minutes, the repeated impacts on my forearm and the inside of my elbow were really starting to hurt. At this point I only really had two options: weaken the attack and start falling easy or put up with the pain and keep going. I couldn't really tell her to use less force in the technique if I was going to continue to use full force in the attack and I couldn't really advise her on what was going wrong. Anyway, I chose the latter option, to just put up with the pain and keep going.

This was a mistake that cost me a couple of weeks of pain and about three weeks off training. Three days after the session, I got a real burning pain in my forearm: I think the impacts had bruised and inflamed the tendons in a nasty case of tendonitis. Not wanting this to turn into a case of chronic tendonitis, I rested the arm until it had fully healed, which took quite a while, not to mention a week waking up in the night with my arm on fire.

How would you deal with this situation? I know she didn't want to injure me (she's quite a good friend). I don't really want to become an "easy Uke" when training with her, since nobody learns anything that way and there is no point in training if nothing is being learned. Equally, I don't want the senior students to think I'm patronizing them (I'm still obviously very junior).

Kevin Leavitt 05-11-2009 07:13 AM

Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you
 
Hi!

First paragraph: "I am obstinate." Stop being obstinate.

Second paragraph: "She has way more experience than me." Yield to her experience if this is true.

Third paragraph. "She was getting frustrated...and I am putting up with pain. I had two choices......so make the choice that does not cause you pain. Is she being effective if she is causing you pain?

I understand your concern about being honest and sincere.

It is a two way street. You also have to be honest and sincere to yourself. If she is causing you pain, then here aikido is possibly working and you are failing to recognize it. She may also have other options (most likely) and you are also failing to recognize that these are present in the relationship.

Pain is a big indicator to me that you have a problem. It means that you need to move to a position are use skills that do not cause pain.

Maybe let go a little bit and explore the relationship in such a way as to be more dyanmic, fluid, get ahead of the attack if you want to be honest and sincere and less obstinate and resistive as once you become hard and fixed you will typically either cause pain to yourself, or fail to recognize that tori can move to other things.

Good luck!

Ron Tisdale 05-11-2009 07:17 AM

Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you
 
Give her a break and soften/slow down your attack so that you both have a chance to learn something other than the obvious.

Then, when you both seem to have a handle on what is going on in the waza, step it up as your (pl) progress warrants.

Your story kind of sounds like...one day I was walking down the street, and there was this wall where one shouldn't be, so I kept walking anyway, and bumped my head and hurt myself. Instead of going around the wall, since it didn't belong there, I just kept trying to walk through it...

Well, if the lack of success doesn't stop you, sooner or later, the pain will.

You can train hard and safe, smart and safe, honest and safe. I suggest you work out how to do that for yourself and each partner you encounter. It may require a different answer each time. Sometimes that means YOUR ego will have to take a hit, or YOUR priorities a back seat to your partner's.

Oh well,
That's life.

Best,
Ron (seniors are neither perfect nor invinsible, they hurt too, and they also screw up sometimes. Get used to it.)

P.S.
Please don't assume from the tersness of my response that I don't make the same mistake...I do. In fact, I believe I made it recently. So perhaps I'm just being terse with myself. :eek:

grondahl 05-11-2009 07:26 AM

Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you
 
Sometimes verbal communication is an option.

And +1 on Rons comment about seniors not being perfect.

StevieT 05-11-2009 08:17 AM

Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you
 
Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote: (Post 229843)
Third paragraph. "She was getting frustrated...and I am putting up with pain. I had two choices......so make the choice that does not cause you pain. Is she being effective if she is causing you pain?

The path of least pain would be not to show up to training in the first place. Being repeatedly thrown to the floor is never going to be comfortable. My (possibly incorrect) understanding of the role of Uke is to endure the discomfort of the techniques in order that Tori (and also Uke) can learn something.

You seem to be suggesting that it's normal during waza (which is after all a rather contrived setting) for Tori to deviate from the technique and the principle being practiced and become "effective" by causing Uke pain. In fact, her hits were not "effective" measured against any of the goals she had at the time. She was trying to break my posture by hitting my arm harder and harder each time. Was it hurting? Yes. Was it doing what she wanted? Not in any way. I don't think this "punish Uke into a mindset where he'll fall over if you come near him" thing is something that is particularly encouraged at my dojo.

Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote: (Post 229844)
Give her a break and soften/slow down your attack so that you both have a chance to learn something other than the obvious.

You can train hard and safe, smart and safe, honest and safe. I suggest you work out how to do that for yourself and each partner you encounter. It may require a different answer each time. Sometimes that means YOUR ego will have to take a hit, or YOUR priorities a back seat to your partner's.

The attacks were naturally slowing and softening somewhat as it started to hurt. Unfortunately, as I was putting less into the attack, she was putting more into the block.

Her priority at the time was, I believe, to get the technique right, not to simply have me fall over. Her frustration was getting in the way of that. Maybe it was just stubbornness on my part in trying to get something out of a training session when I should have just cut the losses and become an "easy Uke" for a while. Bit of a waste of time for both of us though.

John A Butz 05-11-2009 08:53 AM

Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you
 
In situations like that, I would advise uke to keep the intent, and change the speed/power.

In my experience, so long as uke is attacking with the intention to be effective, it is possible to adjust speed and power in order to facilitate training.

When I am training and encounter a problem area, I will ask my uke to ramp down speed and power so that I can think about what is happening. Of course, I also have to ramp down my speed and power to the same level, but the longer "window" of the technique allows me to think through everything and get a handle on what I am trying to do. As I get into the groove, I request that uke slowly ramp things back up, and we will continue ramping up until we reach a point of failure where I can no longer do that technique. Then it is back to slowing it down. Repeat ad infinitum.

Intention can be maintained even at crawling speed, and so long as uke really works to maintain that intention it is possible to create a connection and produce the training result you want. If uke starts to "phone it in", just because things are slowed down, the technique will not work. Uke's job, as it were, is being able to remain as mentally involved in the interaction as possible, regardless of how fast or slow the actual attack is.

I should also point out that this is a social contract. If uke slows down to assist nage/tori with the problem area, and nage/tori continues to use speed and power to effect the technique, then it is your responsibility as uke to say "Hey, lets slow this down a little and see if we can't make it better." You are the uke, not the punching dummy, and you should never put yourself in a position where your attempts to assist someone elses learning put you in danger of injury.

It should also be noted that you should train at ever increasing speed and power in order to consistently get better. Without that, you end up just playing a slow game of waza tag, and that has limited training value. However, you also must recognize the point at which your skills are breaking down under pressure, and adjust your training environment and conditions to address and improve that. If you train to failure consistently, and after failure you adjust, slow down and begin building up again, you should find that your failure point will improve, i.e. you will be able to do that technique under more adverse conditions. Each time you work the cycle you should improve.

Ron Tisdale 05-11-2009 08:59 AM

Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you
 
My point exactly. So you go home hurt, she goes home frustrated, and nobody gained a thing. :(

I am not suggesting to just cut your losses...I am suggesting that you seek to find a better solution. Sometimes these impasses are very difficult...but in my experience, getting through them can be like a light bulb going off! Some different things I have tried (or seen others try when **I** was the issue ;)):

Stop. Politely ask the instructor if they can help. They usually can...which is why they are the instructor! :D

Stop. Politely let your parnter know you are clashing a lot...ask if they have suggestions for your attach, or for your ukemi that can help.

Stop. Politely let your partner know this isn't working for you and ask for advise. Be willing to try it...

Stop. Ask a nearby senior to lend a hand.

I will often vary my attack, posture, intensity, speed, amount of grounding, power etc. to match my partner, so that that we can meet in a more productive place. That will often mean I don't get to focus on what **I** want to focus on.

Again...that's life.

Oh, one more thing...I often strongly dislike stopping a waza in the middle due to a higly resistant uke...but often if the waza isn't working consistantly, you can ususally find the problem in one of the first few movements.

Best,
Ron

Peter Goldsbury 05-11-2009 09:38 AM

Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you
 
Hello,

I assume that you have posted here to seek advice about what you could have done further than you already did, as a committed aikidoka. Comments below.

Quote:

Steve Thomas wrote: (Post 229842)
Let me start off by saying that as Uke, I am probably more obstinate that a lot of people in my dojo. I'm not saying that I struggle and fight against Tori, but at the same time, I don't give my center away, Tori has to take it. Also, unless Tori asks for something different, I will always give a proper, full-force attack. I do this because I think both Uke and Tori learn more that way.

PAG. This reveals much about your way of training, and also reveals much about your teacher's training methods, or lack of training methods. You have been training for seven months, but you have not yet been taught how to attack. You should not be 'more obstinate than a lot of people in my dojo'. What good will this do you, in terms of you aikido training? How are you taught to attack in your dojo?

Quote:

Steve Thomas wrote: (Post 229842)
Anyway, about a month ago I was training with a girl who is a lot more experienced than I am (I've been training about 7 months, she's been Aikido for quite a few years). I forget exactly what technique we were doing, but the attack was a Yokomen and the first movement was a sweeping downwards "block". She was having a really off day. She was not really sweeping far enough to take me off balance and then in her second movement was standing me straight back up. Needless to say, the rest of the technique was not working. The large difference in experience meant I couldn't really help her with what was going wrong.

PAG. But the large difference in experience was sufficient to convince you that the technique was not working. How do you know that she was really having an off day, other than that the technique was not 'working' to your satisfaction? Do you think there is a possibility that she did not follow through with the technique because she saw that you were exhibiting a common trait of a beginner, namely, challenging the senior to 'do' the waza, even though you yourself are not cooperating as uke. ("You are a black belt, so you should be able to deal with me, no matter what I do (not do) as uke: of course, you are not allowed to break the 'rules' by doing anything other than the waza being taught.")

Quote:

Steve Thomas wrote: (Post 229842)
So she was getting frustrated and she started to get very "hitty". After a few minutes, the repeated impacts on my forearm and the inside of my elbow were really starting to hurt. At this point I only really had two options: weaken the attack and start falling easy or put up with the pain and keep going. I couldn't really tell her to use less force in the technique if I was going to continue to use full force in the attack and I couldn't really advise her on what was going wrong. Anyway, I chose the latter option, to just put up with the pain and keep going.

PAG. I am struck by the fact that you think that your own version of the episode is obviously preferable to that of your partner, who, if she were a member of this forum, might have stated, 'Well, I had this male partner, who decided he would not take ukemi in the way he was supposed to, so I did repeated atemi, but to no avail.'

Quote:

Steve Thomas wrote: (Post 229842)
This was a mistake that cost me a couple of weeks of pain and about three weeks off training. Three days after the session, I got a real burning pain in my forearm: I think the impacts had bruised and inflamed the tendons in a nasty case of tendonitis. Not wanting this to turn into a case of chronic tendonitis, I rested the arm until it had fully healed, which took quite a while, not to mention a week waking up in the night with my arm on fire.

PAG. Well, quite. Your partner might feel that you reaped what you sewed. So, what do you yourself think you learned from this experience?

Quote:

Steve Thomas wrote: (Post 229842)
How would you deal with this situation? I know she didn't want to injure me (she's quite a good friend). I don't really want to become an "easy Uke" when training with her, since nobody learns anything that way and there is no point in training if nothing is being learned. Equally, I don't want the senior students to think I'm patronizing them (I'm still obviously very junior).

PAG. Have you been taught explicitly by the dojo shinan or senior yudansha how to to take ukemi correctly? I think (a) that you cannot take ukemi correctly unless you are explicitly taught how to do so, and so (b) that you are patronizing the senior student (who, also, might not have been taught how to take ukemi correctly). As someone who has been training for seven months, what else do you think you need to learn about ukemi? That you will not take ukemi unless someone 'really' throws you? This is not really a bad policy, but it needs to be pursued in a proper context.

I do not think that you should ever be worried that you are patronizing the senior students. I hope you have learned that if you do so, you will be injured easily.

Very best wishes,

PAG

Ron Tisdale 05-11-2009 10:09 AM

Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you
 
Hi Peter, I saw you on the board, and I was very much hoping you would join the thread.

I specifically remember an uke I had in one of your classes at the aiki expo, and I was having a LOT of trouble throwing him with shihonage. At one point, he said to me, "you could break my arm here, but you can not really throw me" or something to that effect.

Although I was a brown belt (somehwere between 3rd and 1st kyu), I had no idea why it was so difficult for me to take his balance, or why anyone would allow themselves to be put in a position where their arm could be broken, but they would not then take ukemi! :eek: Boy, I had a lot to learn! Now, it seems every time I step on the mat, I HAVE A LOT TO LEARN!

Funny how a few years later, I am still faced with the same problem (me). I would be interested in your thoughts on that interaction (if you remember it)...I think it has some bearing on this thread.

Best,
Ron (I do realize that those thoughts will probably cause me some consternation, even at this late date!) ;)

Lan Powers 05-11-2009 10:32 AM

Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you
 
The comment about "intention" was particularly well stated ...
Yokomenuchi (as the example stated here) doesn,t have to be a "killer" blow by itself to be effective to train against, in fact it can be fairly soft if the intention to land the blow is still there.
A commited attack is the phrase used in our dojo a lot to describe this.....not necessarily a forcefull one, or even at times, a fast one, but a commited one that has full intent to land (just not to clobber )
:)
well thought out responses = learning
Lan

dps 05-11-2009 10:33 AM

Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you
 
Quote:

Steve Thomas wrote: (Post 229842)
Let me start off by saying that as Uke, I am probably more obstinate that a lot of people in my dojo. I'm not saying that I struggle and fight against Tori, but at the same time, I don't give my center away, Tori has to take it. Also, unless Tori asks for something different, I will always give a proper, full-force attack. I do this because I think both Uke and Tori learn more that way.

Aikido, The Way of Harmony.

The place where harmony is most needed in Aikido is between tori and uke. You are at practice to help each other.

You should of asked tori, " How can I help you with this?"

David

Randy Sexton 05-11-2009 10:49 AM

Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you
 
I have found that as Nage I have to remain soft and flow with the attack. Because of my Taekwondo background, I found for the first year, I had to constantly remind myself not to "block" a Yokomen but to meet and flow like water in order to blend and be able to redirect the force. Now I just have to remind myself of it when I feel that "hit" on my arm. It is a reminder to me to soften and flow.

I found as Uke I wanted to provide a "real attack" and because I have a wise instructor I learned to attack with intent while adjusting my speed and force to meet the learning needs of my Nage. As Uke when I feel that "hit" on my arm I know what the problem is and adjust my attack. I find the Nage usually responds by adjusting their technique as needed and softening. As time goes on we can slowly increase the speed and power without injury and we both can enjoy the learning experience.

Doc Sexton

StevieT 05-11-2009 11:29 AM

Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you
 
Quote:

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: (Post 229854)
PAG. This reveals much about your way of training, and also reveals much about your teacher's training methods, or lack of training methods. You have been training for seven months, but you have not yet been taught how to attack. You should not be 'more obstinate than a lot of people in my dojo'. What good will this do you, in terms of you aikido training? How are you taught to attack in your dojo?

One thing I see people doing a lot as Uke is giving Tori a "free fall" (unasked) if they think Tori is struggling. As Tori I find this particularly unhelpful. It leaves Tori searching after a feeling of moving correctly, when in fact the success of the technique was not down to a difference in anything Tori was doing but a change in what Uke was doing. I find this unhelpful to the extent that I don't do tend to do it as Uke (and nobody has ever asked me to). Hence my comment comparing me to others in the dojo. Maybe "consistent" might be a better word that "obstinate". As Uke I also expect Tori to say how fast and powerful he/she wants the attack to be, and this is particularly true given that I am still early on the path in Aikido, I expect the senior students to give me some guidance. If Tori asked me to fall easily I would, if that was what she though would best aid her training.

Quote:

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: (Post 229854)
PAG. But the large difference in experience was sufficient to convince you that the technique was not working. How do you know that she was really having an off day, other than that the technique was not 'working' to your satisfaction? Do you think there is a possibility that she did not follow through with the technique because she saw that you were exhibiting a common trait of a beginner, namely, challenging the senior to 'do' the waza, even though you yourself are not cooperating as uke. ("You are a black belt, so you should be able to deal with me, no matter what I do (not do) as uke: of course, you are not allowed to break the 'rules' by doing anything other than the waza being taught.")

Was not working to my satisfaction? The technique was not working to her satisfaction. She was visibly becoming frustrated that what she was doing was not having the effect she wanted and was simply hitting me harder on each attack, even though the attack was coming in slightly softer since my arm was getting sore. If the block is not breaking my posture (sometimes you can give it the benefit of the doubt, but this wasn't even close), should I just lean over deliberately to make her think that she has achieved what she's trying to? Is that really a valuable way of training? I do not set out as Uke to challenge or test Tori. Really it is up to Tori to challenge herself, I am simply there to assist her in developing her Aikido. If she wants me to fall over for basically no reason, she could just ask and that's what I would do.

Quote:

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: (Post 229854)
PAG. I am struck by the fact that you think that your own version of the episode is obviously preferable to that of your partner, who, if she were a member of this forum, might have stated, 'Well, I had this male partner, who decided he would not take ukemi in the way he was supposed to, so I did repeated atemi, but to no avail.'

Is Aikido a dance? Preset movements executed by both partners? If that's what she wants then great, I will humor her. It would be nice if she communicated it verbally than by hitting me though, particularly given that she is the senior. If she thinks my Ukemi is excessively resilient, then she could say without any danger of offending me and I would change.

Quote:

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: (Post 229854)
PAG. Well, quite. Your partner might feel that you reaped what you sewed. So, what do you yourself think you learned from this experience?

What did I learn? That I do not want to train with her in future. This is a shame, but isn't such a big deal, there are plenty of other people in the club to train with. Aikido is a frustrating art to learn as I have found and I think her frustration becomes destructive. "Reaped what you sowed" sounds like a very dangerous attitude in Aikido. You think Tori is justified in injuring Uke because Uke is not going down easily enough? Injuring Uke would always a very easy task for Tori should she wish.

Quote:

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: (Post 229854)
PAG. Have you been taught explicitly by the dojo shinan or senior yudansha how to to take ukemi correctly? I think (a) that you cannot take ukemi correctly unless you are explicitly taught how to do so, and so (b) that you are patronizing the senior student (who, also, might not have been taught how to take ukemi correctly). As someone who has been training for seven months, what else do you think you need to learn about ukemi? That you will not take ukemi unless someone 'really' throws you? This is not really a bad policy, but it needs to be pursued in a proper context.

The nature of my Ukemi during waza depends on what principle Tori is trying to learn. If the principle of a technique is an entry that breaks Uke's posture then a throw where Tori moves through Uke's center (as was the case here), then I'll push Tori to break my posture with her entry, otherwise we're just dancing. If it were a Kokyu-nage, where she was learning to blend with the direction and energy of the attack, then the Ukemi would be very different. I would keep the attack energy going in more of a straight line and not pull back. If the entry were an atemi, intended to off-balance me via some flinch response, then the Ukemi would have been different again, so that she could explore the atemi without having to hit me hard enough to really damage. Uke's purpose in my mind is to teach Tori how her movement affects another person. The only effect of her movement was to hurt my arm after repeated hits. Is that a failure of my Ukemi?

Quote:

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: (Post 229854)
I do not think that you should ever be worried that you are patronizing the senior students. I hope you have learned that if you do so, you will be injured easily.

My dojo lacks the attitude of "don't mess with the seniors or you might get hurt". I like it better for it.

Ron Tisdale 05-11-2009 11:40 AM

Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you
 
Quote:

My dojo lacks the attitude of "don't mess with the seniors or you might get hurt". I like it better for it.
Hmmm...and yet you still got hurt. If what you say above is true, logically then, the fault must be yours? Correct?

Best,
Ron

StevieT 05-11-2009 11:44 AM

Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote: (Post 229861)
Hmmm...and yet you still got hurt. If what you say above is true, logically then, the fault must be yours? Correct?

Best,
Ron

I was referring to the general attitude of the dojo, rather than this particular girl, but yes, the mistake was to an extent mine in letting the situation go on. On the other hand, at the time I was expecting some bruises that would heal in a couple of days, rather than three weeks off because of it, otherwise I would have stopped it far sooner. That is a mistake that only need be made once.

Ron Tisdale 05-11-2009 11:46 AM

Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you
 
Quote:

Is Aikido a dance? Preset movements executed by both partners?
Mmnmm, good question. Still trying to answer that after more than 10 years. If you figured it out in less than a year, I would be *very* ashamed... :blush:

To be serious for a second, think about it...if you are going to study something in a Japanese martial art, you will most likely need to learn using kata, by definition, a set of predefined movements. I think your teachers should be able to advise you how kata can and should work. And yes, especially in the beginning, you are going to have to lean your part in that.

As you progress, sometimes it will be easier, and sometimes not. Personally, I find it a constant challenge...

But then, that is one reason I keep training.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale 05-11-2009 11:49 AM

Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you
 
Quote:

That is a mistake that only need be made once.
Ah! See, you DID learn something of value! :D

Have you tried just talking to your friend about this off the mat?

Best,
Ron

StevieT 05-11-2009 12:09 PM

Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote: (Post 229864)
Ah! See, you DID learn something of value! :D

Have you tried just talking to your friend about this off the mat?

Best,
Ron

:) Yes, I guess I did learn something. Although I still find it a little tough to know the difference between a normal training knock and one that'll still hurt two weeks later. This one didn't really flare up until three days afterward and I had completed another hour and a half of training after the incident that did the damage.

No I haven't really brought it up properly. I did mention it, but by the time I saw her again, it was nearly a month later, so the incident seemed rather distant.

Ron Tisdale 05-11-2009 12:17 PM

Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you
 
I think you have a lot to think about...I'm going to wait now to see if Peter responds again to the thread.

Some last few things I can say...aikido is hard. :( :D That is both good and bad, but it keeps me coming back. And for a physical activity, it requires a LOT of brain work to get it right.

Train smarter...not harder...at least if you are in it for the long haul.

Best,
Ron (I'm saying this with some herniated discs in my neck from training not so smart at times...)

Marc Abrams 05-11-2009 01:04 PM

Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you
 
Steven:

You might want to step back from the situation and re-examine your interactions from an older, more traditional perspective in which the uke serves in the role as the teacher. What kind of a teacher were you in that interaction? What could you have done differently to become a better teacher if that opportunity arose again?

Shihans, Senseis, Sempai and Kohai are ALL STUDENTS IN THIS LEARNING PROCESS! Just because somebody is ahead of us on that path does not mean that they are not working on their own development. As ukes, regardless of the rank of the nage, we must dedicate ourselves to being the best teachers that we can possibly be. That should mean that we foster positive learning in a manner that educates both sides of that equation. This lofty goal on the part of uke requires a lot of integrity and caring.

Marc Abrams

Mary Eastland 05-11-2009 01:29 PM

Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you
 
steve.....is she a girl or a woman?....if she is a girl i find it remarkable that she could hurt you unless you are a boy.

as to your questions.....it seems in your response to peter that your mind is made up and you are not very teachable.
my hope for you as you continue to train is that you become more teachable before you hurt yourself seriously.
best,
mary

Phil Van Treese 05-11-2009 01:31 PM

Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you
 
For crying outloud--If you are getting hurt by your partner and your partner is getting more and more frustrated, you need to say something right then and there. You need to work out a solution to the p&f and then continue. If you need the sensei's intervention, then ask for it. For you to continue on getting hurt and your partner getting frustrated--you learn nothing.

NagaBaba 05-11-2009 02:04 PM

Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you
 
Hello Pater,
Quote:

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: (Post 229854)
How are you taught to attack in your dojo?

Is your question: Have you not learned yet to attack the way not to make any trouble for the ppl that are higher ranking then you ? ;) :D

Quote:

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: (Post 229854)
challenging the senior to 'do' the waza, even though you yourself are not cooperating as uke. ("You are a black belt, so you should be able to deal with me, no matter what I do (not do) as uke: of course, you are not allowed to break the 'rules' by doing anything other than the waza being taught.")

So what exactly is wrong with being not cooperating uke(7 months training) for a tori that have a lot of years of training? Why you consider it as a challenge??? Is it not normal that students have to make experience with cooperating uke but also with not cooperating uke?

I personally expect that already a student with 2-3 years of experience can handle any behavior of beginner with 7 months of training, however I don't expect 100% sucess ratio. Acceptance of a failure of a technique is a very important learning.
Otherwise I believe that a teaching systems is not efficient.

Quote:

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: (Post 229854)
PAG. Have you been taught explicitly by the dojo shinan or senior yudansha how to to take ukemi correctly?
PAG

Oh, there is a concept of "correct ukemi" in aikido? May be O sensei taught 'correct ukemi' for his students? :p :D Or rather, it is a way to tank for instructor otherwise he is not able to execute a technique?

If I remember well, Kami was telling O sensei what and how he must execute a technique - could you explain the "correct ukemi" in such context, please? :cool:

NagaBaba 05-11-2009 02:17 PM

Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you
 
Quote:

I specifically remember an uke I had in one of your classes at the aiki expo, and I was having a LOT of trouble throwing him with shihonage. At one point, he said to me, "you could break my arm here, but you can not really throw me" or something to that effect.

Hi Ron,
I had such experience rather frequently as a nage. And the years later suddenly I started to have it in the role of uke.

Now I think the reason is that nage is concentrated on one particular point(i.e. lock an arm ) instead of early controlling whole body of attacker. This is a pedagogical weakness in aikido, we dont teach the counters with other body members(head, elbows, knee and legs) early in the training. And nage feels safe having one lock but not having uke off balance - he is forgetting that aikido it is INTERACTION.

Mark Peckett 05-11-2009 02:18 PM

Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you
 
Beginners do indeed tend to:

a) give senior grades a free ride by falling over in the belief that that is what they're meant to do and:

b) attack without giving their centre away.

Now I would expect a boxer, or a karateka sparring to attack without giving his centre away because they are fighting for points; whe practising aikido it can be helpful to attack and give your centre away. That allows tori to redirect uke's genuine attack. One of the problems with aikido, particularly for beginners, is that tori knows what attack is coming and uke knows what defence is coming, so it is always possible for uke to prevent the technique - in fact, I'm sure people who've been practising a long time have experienced similar situations with aikidoka senior to them. It's difficult to turn your mind off and just attack.

I do, however, agree with the other posters that a genuine attack doesn't have to be full tilt/full-blooded.


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