Re: Introduction + The missing Atemi
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Second, this is not a universally accurate description of beginner training in aikido. Third, remember that uke is learning aikido, too, and one of the things they *should* be learning is how to attack effectively. Katherine |
Re: Introduction + The missing Atemi
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I came to aikido with experience in other martial arts. At first, much of what I saw made no sense to me. Many things were counterintuitive to me. But they also didn't contradict what I'd learned before. They were different, sure -- but looking back on my prior training, I couldn't point to anything that said, "Doing so-and-so (what I was learning in aikido) is pointless and stupid and will get you killed." So while I did examine what I was learning from a perspective of prior training, I didn't try to make it fit into that mold. If I'd been in a karate dojo, what I was learning would have been considered some pretty peculiar karate -- but I wasn't in a karate dojo. So, I didn't try to judge it by karate standards. There's an inherent difficulty in a beginner trying to evaluate the quality and validity of what they're learning, whether it be aikido or physics. If you refuse to take anything on faith, even to keep an open mind to the possibility that what your teacher says is valid, and you insist on proof before you will accept it, you've created a dilemma for yourself. You demand an explanation before you are willing to accept the teaching, but you lack the experience and knowledge to understand the explanation -- and without accepting the teaching, you won't get it. You have to be able to accept at least the possibility that what you're told as so, and to practice accordingly, before you can gain an understanding of why this is so. This is not to say that you have to accept anything you're told. You can always try to teach yourself, by experience and primary research. That's a pretty inefficient method, to say the least, as you often won't get much of anywhere. There are some things you really need a teacher for. You can also use your own judgment of character as to whether your teacher is a person of integrity or not. There is no formula, it's a matter of painful experience, but if you know how to spot a con, a manipulator, someone who is lying to him/herself or others...well, you know 'em when you see 'em. I've got a pretty good bullshit meter -- I trust it, and it has been a long time since it proved me wrong. So when I came to my aikido dojo, I was able to judge that the senseis and the students were people of integrity, sensible people, not deluded and not interested in deluding others. The practice made no sense to me at all. But because I felt that the teachers were trustworthy, I was able to maintain an open mind, to do things that made no sense to me, over and over again, and get the data points so that now they start to make sense, I can understand the explanations or explain them to myself. Without the data points, though, the theory would mean nothing to me. And without the open-minded practice, I'd never have gotten the data points. If I'd insisted on proof before practice, I'd never have gotten anywhere. |
Re: Introduction + The missing Atemi
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Re: Introduction + The missing Atemi
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Re: Introduction + The missing Atemi
Ukemi is quite difficult to practice. Practicing the role of uke allows us the time to study openings in our own attacks, and teaches us ways of safely defending those openings. It is the responsibility of uke to recognize openings for atemi and to respond to those openings. Sensitive ukemi, wherein we follow the movement of our training partner, develops the sensitivity required to change directions appropriately and when indicated, which makes henka waza (transitioning techniques) and kaeshi waza (reversing techniques) possible during later stages of practice. Sensitive ukemi is the means by which we may "steal" the techniques of our teachers and senior students.
Most of the time, sempai will slow way down when training with new, or inexperienced training partners. The techniques are action-response katas, and both roles have delineated actions. Fast practice, or practice that transitions from one technique to another (henka waza), etc. requires, for safety, that both practitioners be fluent in both roles of a wide range of techniques. Slow movement can amplify mistakes, however, which may be tempting to attempt to resist. Many beginners (and even some experienced practitioners) have a tendency to resist a technique by either tensing up against it, or disconnecting and changing the direction of their ukemi. There are techniques (henka waza) for dealing with such systems of resistance, but those are reserved for explicit demonstration and practice. Most instructors would like the students to practice just what has been demonstrated, at a level of intensity that is appropriate for the less experienced of each partnership. Many instructors expect to be the only instructor on the mat. If your sempai aren't explaining things, it could be that such behavior is not tolerated in your dojo. It's not necessarily the case everywhere, but it is definitely the case some places. You really should keep practicing. The most practical aspect of aikido really is ukemi. With experience, you will develop the sensitivity required to sense changes in direction by an obstinate attacker, and adjust your application of technique appropriately. The far more likely scenario to being attacked, though (unless you are in some kind of high-risk occupation or social situation), is that you will, at some point, fall down. Falls become tremendously more dangerous as we age, but, with practice, we can improve how we fall. |
Re: Introduction + The missing Atemi
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Re: Introduction + The missing Atemi
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Katherine |
Re: Introduction + The missing Atemi
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You say you want a solution, yet you refuse to define the problem. How can you expect useful answers if that's the approach you take? Do you walk into a hardware store and say, "I want the best tool in the store", refuse to answer when they ask you want you want to use it for, and then yell, "So you propose that I either buy every tool in the store, or not buy any tool at all!"? "Self-defense" is the same. Who or what are you defending against? Why are they attacking you? Where are they attacking you? Do they have any skills, weapons, other resources? Is this a movie-fantasy attack in the stereotypical dark alley, or is it something more realistic, like an attack by a spouse or partner? Et bloody cetera. No one can help you if you refuse to frame the problem in terms that have some relation to the real world. If you'd rather just move the goalposts every time someone tries to give you an answer, so you can have the satisfaction of ridiculing their response, then I wish you every bit of the rancid, bitter enjoyment that kind of game brings. Meanwhile I'll be over here investing in circus pony futures. |
Re: Introduction + The missing Atemi
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Katherine |
Re: Introduction + The missing Atemi
Please stop feeding the troll.
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Re: Introduction + The missing Atemi
Really good advice Ben. On the other hand he has been really effective, you have to admire that on some level.
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"Laughably dishonest" - Again, this level of communication does not suit me. Quote:
Then the conversation went on, and as it is often the case with conversations, I put forth some new observations and viewpoints. And finally, because there are apparently too many fanboys in this forum, I am being called a troll. Is there any sticky that said "thou shall not speak critically about aspects of aikido you don't like"? What can I say. Focusing only on you, you have attacked me with various adjectives in your last posts when there is no need for that at all. Especially your last paragraph is beyond my imagination and I guess it enters the field of psychology. I just wanted a friendly, fruitful dialogue and to an extend that is what happened. If someone thinks they can contribute further with they response, they are welcome to do so. If this is something you are not interested in, there are many other things on the internet you can have fun with. I don't have the time or will to answer to offensive comments. |
Re: Introduction + The missing Atemi
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Re: Introduction + The missing Atemi
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Most Aikido practice is basically kata. Predefined attack, predefined response. What you're saying comes down to that you don't like kata training. Your privilege, and you do have good company in that, but if you don't learn why kata training is useful, you're going to be frustrated a lot on the Aikido mat. Consider that essentially all koryu teach their arts through kata training. These are arts that were developed to keep people alive on the battlefield--yet most of the teaching is through staged interactions. Why do you think that is? My teacher says, "If you train chaos, you learn chaos." Until you've burned in the right movement patterns, all you'll get from free sparring is chaos. Think about that. As for whether nage has the responsibility for helping you through this, he/she does and did. Nage's only other real option at this point was to show how your uncommitted attack left you open to a different technique. That could easily result in you either being hit, or having to take a fall you're not ready for. We try not to do that in most Aikido dojos. Sure, it's nice for the instructor to show you all the different variations in how a technique can evolve depending on what uke does--the basic 17 kata of Tomiki Aikido is structured just this way--but you can't depend on that every time. On the subject of trolls, meh. Maybe, maybe not. I'm in it for the discussion. |
Re: Introduction + The missing Atemi
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The more senior people might dump you on the floor a few times and try to explain how what you are doing is inappropriate for what's being taught, but they might not. They're human too. They've seen many many students come through the door, train for a while, and vanish without a trace. Life is too short to get overly invested in any single beginner. Especially one who seems to be halfway out the door already because he isn't finding what he's looking for. We don't ask people to kneel by the gate in the rain any more, and that's probably a good thing. But it will always be true that you get out of the art what you put into it. If you are perceived -- accurately or not -- as not approaching aikido practice with an open mind, then people probably won't expend much effort to try to help you. Now, whether the level of challenge you present will be perceived in this way *will* depend on the skill level of the person and the dojo culture. There are some dojos where I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be happy for much the same reasons that you describe, and some where I fit right in. But it doesn't really matter, because they're not going to change. You can accommodate yourself to the way they train, or you can find a different dojo. Katherine |
Re: Introduction + The missing Atemi
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Ultimately, the definition of roles is necessary to learning aiki. It's a science experiment - you don't go changing variables when you are trying to replicate results. Kata provides this structure and its purpose is different that kumite. To Hugh's point, eventually, you have to provide framework to get the serious learning. Randori exercise is a very difficult environment in which to remain consistent. Generally, you are supposed to improve your partner's aikido. Everyone who touches you should be better when they step off the mat. We begin and end each class with the pleasantries of asking for help and thanking our partners for helping us. Introspectively, if you wince when someone asks for help because you will not help them you need to re-think your perspective; or, you wince when someone thanks you for helping them because it is a hollow formality you need to re-think how you interact with your partner. I know people who have trained for years and never grasped this concept - why are we busting someone's chops that is new to aikido for likewise not being appropriately exposed? There's a reason why uke is often reserved for the senior partner... As for the issue of self-defense... We promote a curriculum that is going to even the odds. Our primary PR is designed around the notion that just because someone is bigger, better, faster or stronger does not mean that have an advantage. If that is our claim, it is not unreasonable to infer a strong foundation for self-defense purposes. I think this is again a gap in the expectation of the prospective student and the ability in the dojo. There are individuals who practice aikido with a narrow gap between aikido and application-based fighting. There are people who cannot punch their way out of a paper bag. Large tent and all that. Good aikido has foundation that can be applied to defend yourself. Some dojos provide a curriculum to build on that foundation. But not all dojos. There are other curriculum that are better tailored to specific application-oriented fighting and self-defense. Again, this is a not a 6-week program and I think we are talking about mis-managed expectations creating frustration. I am more supportive of the "question everything." Somethings require less scrutiny, but some things require closer inspection, too. I think Katherine is 100% correct - you will get out what you put in. There is a huge difference between paradox and poor training. Aikido has enough of both. We come to aikido seeing something that we want to change. The dojo provides us the opportunity and the education to make that change. |
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