"Hidden in Plain Sight" - ukemi as a training tool
On p.177-178 of 'Hidden in Plain Sight' it says
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- How would that work exactly? - How much skill can one develop using only ukemi as a training tool? - What are the advantages/disadvantages of this approach? - What changes would you need to make to aikido practice to incorporate this approach? - If techniques were partly chosen for the quality of ukemi training the provide, does this mean aikido techniques are less effective than they could have been without focus on ukemi as a training tool? |
Re: "Hidden in Plain Sight" - ukemi as a training tool
Hi Joep, I'm going to make a flying leap maybe it makes sense, but I don't know what Ellis thinks, and I have the same questions that you have,, this is what I've thought up on my own
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Nage starts handling Uke , and Uke is supposed to "continue the attack" . Typically it doesnt necessarily mean that after the initial imbalancing of Uke all bets are off and Uke can do whatever he wants. Usually it means, that Uke has continue to try and continue providing "Input" for Nage to deal with all the way.. as long as Uke continues inputting Nage continues putting Uke into awkward positions from which Uke needs to find a way to recover center and continue the attack. Without breaking contact. So you end up in frequently trying to meet Nage's forces and rearrange to negate them with the least amount of exertion ;-| Quote:
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Re: "Hidden in Plain Sight" - ukemi as a training tool
Been doing a lot of writing and responding and don't recall exactly what I've written when . . . .One final caveat - I am NOT setting myself up as an authority on internal training - HIPS is very deliberately not a "how-to" book - it is a "It exists" book. I notice what people have said, and what a few people have showed me - and highlight them for people's own attention, for them to follow up as they will. I am pursuing my own training regimen, but any response to questions like the above are my somewhat informed speculations. I'd urge you to pursue further with the "open sources." That said,
Here's the sequence as I see it: 1. Ukemi - in the sense of falling - is a great body conditioner. And you learn to relax while taking a huge blow from the ground. And done over and over again, getting up with a centered posture, ready to "fight," trains kamae, kokyu (in the sense of aerobics), emotional centering. 2. I am only theorizing here - BUT - if ukemi/falling is coupled with specific breathing exercises - is it not possible that it, like most other activities, could become a vehicle for internal training? I believe the possiblity that this is what Sagawa might have meant. OR, he merely meant that you have to develop the right body as "vessel" to contain internal training - and he saw taking hard falls as a means to this. In either event, he - and Ueshiba - cite ukemi as essential for the development of the "aiki body." And I think they were referring to both ukemi as falling (otherwise, why, "bang, bang, bang") and in other references, to the concept of ukemi as the redirection/countering/transmuting of force. 3. Beyond this - ukemi as a vehicle for internal training - now if we talk about ukemi, not as falling, but as reception, sensitivity, getting inside the other, redirection of forces - this, I've discussed to the best of my ability in Aikido is Three Peaches, in HIPS. Dan Harden, over the years, has made some really cogent posts on this subject specific to aikido/aikijutsu. Best Ellis Amdur |
Re: "Hidden in Plain Sight" - ukemi as a training tool
From my own experience, after awhile doing ukemi, a person instinctively learns how not to loose kuzushi to tori.
What O'Sensei was doing physically was his wordless book of instruction, but in part not what he was doing himself but what he was doing to uke? So learning good ukemi is the first step in learning Aikido? David |
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Uke is more skilled than tori: tori unbalances himself through his efforts to throw uke. If he realizes this, he starts over. If he doesn't, he throws himself. If uke is a bit of an ass, he throws tori with his attack, before tori has the chance to do anything. Tori is more skilled than uke: if there is a large gap in skill level, tori will basically do as he pleases with uke. If the two skill levels are not that far apart, uke may be able to thwart a few of tori's attempts until tori prevails. (Of course, the same may happen with uke prevailing.) To be honest, the main question is imho not "What would it look like?". The main question is: how to create a form of training in which tori AND uke are constantly working on their internal skills, be it actively (applying aiki on the training partner), be it passively (being throw, joint locked). Both modes of practice should train the 'power pathways' inside the body. |
Re: "Hidden in Plain Sight" - ukemi as a training tool
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Rather it seems to be the case that tori needs to be more skilled than uke to be able to apply a joint lock in such a way that it trains uke's 'power pathways'. |
Re: "Hidden in Plain Sight" - ukemi as a training tool
in your scheme though who is who ?
I'm trying to see this through the prism of "Nage is Uke" that Ellis puts out. So, if the traditional teacher is taking ukemi, and aikido's reversal of roles was intentional then the teacher (Nage) is taking ukemi forcing uke to recover and counter and get inside his technique. And even if its not relevant to ask what it looks like as a pointer of how to train it , i was trying to see how it could have been observed by an outsider who was not being taught the meaty substance. If Aikido is a viable training tool for internal strength, and a martial art then it must have had some folks who have gotten somewhere with it knowing the things you need to know to make it happen.. or not. |
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However, Ueshiba and Takeda mostly assumed the role of nage, which implies that nage would be uchidachi and that it's mostly uke that's training aikido through ukemi (being thrown, being locked, absorbing forces, redirecting forces). This begs the question what and how uke is learning, hence this thread. I can see how going with "Nage is Uke" can lead to the statement that "the teacher (Nage) is taking ukemi", but to me that's no more than a confusion of terms. I hope the above mapping with uchidachi/shidachi clarifies my point of view. |
Re: "Hidden in Plain Sight" - ukemi as a training tool
Of my own experience, my ukewaza...
"Nonetheless, the importance of ukemi - of being slammed over and over again to the floor, and of being cranked over and over again in various joint locks until one learns to absorb the force, redirect it, and even add ones own power to it and send it back to one's "attacker," is clearly inherent in both Ueshiba and Sagawa's training method." 1. Ukemi is physical conditioning to improve the body's resistance to injury. 2. Ukemi is training by experiencing the human condition response. To these points I say that ukemi is important to well-rounded aikido. |
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Nage teaches by being defeated by Uke Now, that sounds like a sneaky way of teaching ( and the mother of all excuses for screwing up a tech) |
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And perhaps with Ueshiba and Sagawa, what they were taught/knew was that model from Takeda where students take falls and rolls and such? In their eyes, they knew the importance of taking ukemi (#2) because it is the vehicle (#3) for internal skills to grow. Dunno, just tossing out an idea. Another thing that I wonder -- if the Daito ryu model was to, generally, bring uke to the feet for break/kill and Ueshiba's model was, generally, to cast away ... If we look at Ueshiba's model in a bit more detail, then do you think that rather than work within the specific model of taking uke to the feet, he was, instead, working with "following" and "changing" the energy? In other words, he was working on ways of dealing with not only regular martial artists, but also with those who had "aiki"? |
Re: "Hidden in Plain Sight" - ukemi as a training tool
Hi Mark -
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Best Ellis Amdur |
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