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-   -   What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22985)

Bill Danosky 09-16-2013 08:53 AM

What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
Solid, martial techniques for me- Hiji Shime, Ude Garami, lots of Ikka jo (Ikkyo) and of course Irimi Nage. Working on my Kote Gaeshi for vs. weapon. I didn't used to think Shiho Nage, but lately...

Robert Cheshire 09-16-2013 08:58 AM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
Dim Mak

grondahl 09-16-2013 09:42 AM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
Ki(mchi) blasts.

Keith Larman 09-16-2013 10:06 AM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
"When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

Been doing it too long to focus on any one thing. Mostly I just practice.

Neal Earhart 09-16-2013 10:24 AM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
Movement....

bkedelen 09-16-2013 10:36 AM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
See what I was talking about, Bill? Waza is the least part of Aikido's contribution to surviving physical conflict.

Violence is the most toxic environment known to man. Aikido is not a mechanism for enabling its adepts to participate in violence. It is a method of reducing other people's power over you to absolutely nothing (Chris' translations discuss this at great length) so that they cannot stop you in any way. There is no violence in this and there are no techniques involved. The techniques are just an environment for you to stress test this skill and thus improve your ability to bring it to bear under adverse conditions.

phitruong 09-16-2013 11:43 AM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
glock or smith-wesson waza and following zombie land rule #2 - double tap. but don't forget rule #1: cardio. and rule #14: always carry a change of underwear in case of code brown situation. :D

Keith Larman 09-16-2013 12:50 PM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
Quote:

Benjamin Edelen wrote: (Post 329961)
See what I was talking about, Bill? Waza is the least part of Aikido's contribution to surviving physical conflict.

Violence is the most toxic environment known to man. Aikido is not a mechanism for enabling its adepts to participate in violence. It is a method of reducing other people's power over you to absolutely nothing (Chris' translations discuss this at great length) so that they cannot stop you in any way. There is no violence in this and there are no techniques involved. The techniques are just an environment for you to stress test this skill and thus improve your ability to bring it to bear under adverse conditions.

What he said... Aikido waza are for me like the little foot outlines they put on the floor to teach someone how to do a dance move. Foot here, then right foot there, then turn a bit. That ain't dancing, it's attempting to get you to move in a certain way to hopefully feel and develop a certain thing that can manifest itself no matter what's happening. And doing the dance moves over and over again does not mean you can dance. That's something else entirely. Yeah, you've got to go *through* those steps, *through* that process, but there's no guarantee you'll ever dance well as a general proposition.

So I just focus on doing things that I feel I don't do as well as I should. Because I'm "failing" that stress test in my mind and it reveals a hole in my ability. So I train more. And more. And frankly do whatever the instructor is teaching or whatever my own students request. Because it's all of it that matters.

But then again there are levels involved in this as well. Frankly prior experience in things like Judo and Krav Maga I find would be easiest to teach someone to be able to handle themselves asap. But I've been at this way too long now to worry about ASAP -- that ship sailed a long time ago.

James Sawers 09-16-2013 02:29 PM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
Dim Sum...

lbb 09-16-2013 02:50 PM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
"Fergus spake these words and he said, This shall be my creed, whereby shall I live my life, as it were a shining example of Virtue and Excellence, well worthy to be enshrined in Heaven as a model for all who are wise to follow. My creed shall into three parts, like Gaul, be divided. Firstly, I shall constrain myself to Mind My Own Business. Secondly, I shall endeavour at all times and in all places to Keep My Nose Clean by the most expedient possible means. Thirdly, and finally, I shall always exercise the utmost care to Keep My Hands To Myself."

Rob Watson 09-16-2013 06:12 PM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
Bad guys don't need waza ...

Chris Covington 09-16-2013 07:27 PM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
Because of my job I deal with "bad guys" more than the average budoka I guess. Studying "this technique" or "that kata" with the intent to prepare yourself for a bad guy isn't helpful. When the moment comes you do what you do. In the real world I have done kata (or pieces of them) that I don't really like or care for that much ; when I was in the moment they were what needed to happen.

When I studied judo I had a few throws that were my signature throws (tomoenage, hizagaruma and haraigoshi were my top three). I'd win nearly all of my matches with them (or lose trying to pull them off). Talk about having a hammer and seeing only nails! If I lost it didn't really matter because all that got injured was my pride. After being in the "real world" I understand I cannot have such favoritism. Study each kata with dedication because you never known when you might have to pull it off.

When I have finished with a hands on situation I have never looked back and thought I should have spent more time rolling, more time on conditioning or anything like that. I always wish I had spent more time training kata. YMMV.

For what it is worth I've found myself in a position to use kamatezume (a Daito-ryu nakajo kata) a lot here lately (another kata I never spent as much time with...). Whatever works I guess.

Aikiwarrior 09-16-2013 09:45 PM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
Atemi waza. Speed and power.

IvLabush 09-17-2013 02:59 AM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
"No design, no conception" as Musashi wrote down.

Offtopic.
Why aikido Yoshinkan practitioners often are aggressive in discussion? I mentioned it in Post-Soviet Union field also.

bkedelen 09-17-2013 08:42 AM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
Quote:

Ivan Labushevskiy wrote: (Post 329976)
Why aikido Yoshinkan practitioners often are aggressive in discussion?

Save it pal. We stopped discussing different styles of aikido as if they were personality types long ago.

JO 09-17-2013 10:26 AM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
All of them or none, depending on my mood.

Cliff Judge 09-17-2013 10:42 AM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
I don't believe in bad guys.

IvLabush 09-17-2013 11:35 AM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
Quote:

Benjamin Edelen wrote: (Post 329978)
Save it pal.

It wasn't attempt of provocation but truly wondering to people on other side of planet acting same way.

SeiserL 09-17-2013 04:40 PM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
Atemi!

OwlMatt 09-17-2013 06:01 PM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
As others in this thread have already said, there are much better things than aikido waza for dealing with "bad guys". I train aikido waza for one reason and one reason only: because I like aikido.

Bill Danosky 09-23-2013 10:48 AM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
Quote:

Ivan Labushevskiy wrote: (Post 329976)
Offtopic.
Why aikido Yoshinkan practitioners often are aggressive in discussion? I mentioned it in Post-Soviet Union field also.

No, I think there's something to that. Yoshinkan practitioners often choose that style because we want to re-legitimize Aikido among martial arts, as opposed to dance styles. My waza works. I have used it on bad guys successfully. YMMV.

Bill Danosky 09-23-2013 10:51 AM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
Quote:

Chris Covington wrote: (Post 329974)
When the moment comes you do what you do.

I will agree if we say, "When the moment comes, we do what we have done again and again and again."

It's ENTIRE the point of practice, IMO.

Steven 09-23-2013 11:21 AM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 329963)
glock or smith-wesson waza and following zombie land rule #2 - double tap. but don't forget rule #1: cardio. and rule #14: always carry a change of underwear in case of code brown situation. :D

+1

Brett Charvat 09-23-2013 01:50 PM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
Quote:

Bill Danosky wrote: (Post 330083)
Yoshinkan practitioners often choose that style because we want to re-legitimize Aikido among martial arts, as opposed to dance styles.

-- Well, that's mighty big of you; thanks! Remind me, which ones are the "dance styles" again?

bkedelen 09-24-2013 10:05 AM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
What say you, Bill? I am curious to hear your wisdom on this matter.

ChrisMikk 09-25-2013 07:07 AM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
Quote:

Peter Gröndahl wrote: (Post 329956)
Ki(mchi) blasts.

onara kusai. brutal!

ChrisMikk 09-25-2013 07:09 AM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
Quote:

Ivan Labushevskiy wrote: (Post 329976)
"No design, no conception" as Musashi wrote down.

Musashi also towered over his opponents physically and spent all his time training. Good luck.

ChrisMikk 09-25-2013 07:12 AM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
Quote:

Brett Charvat wrote: (Post 330093)
-- Well, that's mighty big of you; thanks! Remind me, which ones are the "dance styles" again?

Grammatically speaking, I think he means Yoshinkan practitioners want to re-legitimize aikido among martial artists rather than among dancers.

Mary Eastland 09-25-2013 08:05 AM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
Quote:

Christian Mikkelson wrote: (Post 330151)
Grammatically speaking, I think he means Yoshinkan practitioners want to re-legitimize aikido among martial artists rather than among dancers.

How will that be accomplished?

Bill Danosky 09-25-2013 08:06 AM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
A dance move is any technique that requires an uke to work. Every Aikido practitioner needs to know the difference, for their own safety.

Bill Danosky 09-25-2013 09:51 AM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
Here's George Ledyard on this issue (follows). It's from an old thread here, but I can't get the normal QUOTE function to work here:

"...It's not at all difficult to know when things are martially ineffective. Aikido practice is highly stylized. So the first sign of martial ineffectiveness is when the folks in the dojo can't even make their waza work under the controlled circumstances of practice.

Irimi is at the heart of all martial application. If you go to a dojo and no one can enter without you hitting them, the practice is ineffective. That's my first test... I frequently arrive at dojos to teach and find that not a single student can pull off an irimi when I attack. That's because I REALLY attack. at the majority of the dojos I see around, the students are not really trying to strike their partners. If everyone trains that way day after day, they think they know how to do things they really cannot do. As Frank Doran Sensei says, the "entry" is everything, everything else is just icing on the cake.

I think that the "entry" is the most neglected aspect of Aikido training. I sell a lot of Aikido DVD's. I have a set I call the Principles of Aiki set. Vol. 2 is just on "Entries". I sell fewer of those than the others. I am convinced that this is because people see the title and say to themselves "I know how to do that..."

Anyway, it's a shock when a bunch of third or fourth dans, or even worse, someone running a dojo, finds that they can't do an entry. They can know 500 techniques and without effective irimi, it's just 500 techniques they cannot do.

The second thing one can spot at a dojo at which the practice is clearly martially ineffective is closely related to the above. Can the students at the dojo strike? With speed, with power? If not, then the practice is being done at unrealistically slow speed. People will not be able to adjust when it gets fast and hard.

What does the "intention" feel like during practice. Once again, you can look at the folks in many dojos and see that they have no projection, no forward intention. You can stand in front of them and feel nothing. They have no idea how to organize a strong forward flow of attention. If you attack them fast, or God forbid, with unexpected timing, they are never ready. You can stand in front of someone like this and know you will hit them before you even start.

One of my students gave me a book on the theory of limits as applied to business. While being over my head math-wise after about three chapters, I got the gist of it. It changed my thinking about how we teach our art. The theory of limits says that in any complex system, like a factory (and Aikido is also a complex system of body / mind skills), one needs to analyze the various elements that go into producing the output of the factory and decide which one is the "limiting factor". You can throw all sorts of money and resources into that factory and have no increase in the production whatever if you don't devote them to improving the "limiting factor".

So, in my opinion, most Aikido practice is done without any regard to this idea. People are studying a wide range of techniques, empty hand and weapons, putting all sorts of time and money into their training with almost no increase in actual skill from year to year because they have not addressed the limiting factor in their Aikido.

For the majority of the folks I see training, the limiting factor is the lack of ability or willingness to train with attacks which have speed and power. Strikes have no body integration and hence no actual power. Grabs tend to be "strong" in a way that is totally ineffective. A grab should be designed to effect the partner's balance and his ability to respond. Turning your partner's hand purple by grabbing really hard has no martial effectiveness whatever and is probably making you tight in a way that limits your ability to move freely.

So collectively, I would put all of this under the label of "attacks". Problems with the "attack" is the limiting factor for most Aikido folks. There is simply no possible way for someone to get to any level beyond the rudimentary without addressing this issue. Period. 50% of ones training is in the role of "uke". All sorts of attention is put on the ability to take the fall, very little is put on the actual attack.

Now, that said, fixing this issue is still no guarantee of "martial effectiveness" outside the dojo. But the idea that only combat will tell you anything simply isn't the case. Physical conflict runs through a whole range from a drunk guy shoving you at a bar to two or three fellows with guns confronting you on the street. There innumerable stories of folks with only moderate skills, developed in their dojo environments, using their Aikido "effectively" for self defense on the street. The reason for this is that most attackers out in the real world are not formally trained in anything. Many are simply incompetent. Dangerous perhaps, but not very sophisticated.

Combat is all out, life or death. Most folks will never have to use their Aikido in combat. That doesn't mean that one can't train for martial effectiveness. Do you want to know whether you are "martially effective"? Go up to your local mixed martial arts gym and see about applying what you've worked on in the dojo. Personally, I don't actually care about this issue, but young men often wonder if their stuff "works" and this is a good way to find out. The uchi deshi used to wonder the same thing... they'd go out to the local bars and get in fights, often with the soldiers from the occupation. That's a good way to find out of you can do your Aikido against folks who have no formal training. Of course you might get injured, killed or just plain arrested doing this, but it will tell you something.

Anyway, my feeling is that people need to fix how they train in the dojo and get it to the point at which it actually works within the stylized framework of Aikido itself before they need to start worrying about "combat application" or "martial effectiveness". These discussions are off mark most of the time, I think. Find the "limiting factor" in your training and fix it. Then find the new "limiting factor" and fix that. Progress will result and eventually you will be good at what you do. Then, if you want to experiment with non-traditional applications, go ahead. Folks who worry about this too early in their training typically do not get very good."

Mary Eastland 09-25-2013 04:05 PM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
I just checked out a couple of Yoshinkan videos. To me it doesn't seem any more or less effective than any other style of Aikido. It look a little tense and not as blendy as some styles of Aikido. I don't see how it is any more martially effective.

Bill Danosky 09-25-2013 04:47 PM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
Mary, you have been around long enough to know checking out a couple of videos doesn't give you any answers. Yoshinkan dojos vary somewhat, and I wouldn't speak for anyone but myself, or claim that we are the final word in self defense- We had a senior instructor from Birankai just practice with us for a year and we learned a ton from him. But in my dojo, we are free to say, "This isn't working!" So we are not reinforcing bad habits. I am certain that makes a big difference.

Regardless, the most important thing I am trying to underscore here is that IF you have ANY impracticality in your technique, it's the dojo's solemn obligation to make sure you know. That's how we find our "limiting factor" (s) and improve. And when I say "we" I mean our practice group.

I would prefer no one finds any insult in that, but if they do I think it's worth it to deliver that message. We ALL have weaknesses. Myself included, but I am working hard to define and eliminate them. Please make sure your's don't take you by surprise. You never know when trouble will find you.

Mary Eastland 09-25-2013 05:30 PM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
By being aware and present you can be less likely to be taken by surprise. Living a conscious way keeps us safer while we stay positive.

OwlMatt 09-25-2013 08:09 PM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
There is only one way to know if your aikido works in the case of a real attack, and that is to hang around in a shady part of town until someone attacks you. I'm going to go ahead and guess that no one in this thread has done that, and that therefore that a style vs. style effectiveness argument has nowhere to go but down.

Bill Danosky 09-25-2013 10:03 PM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
Stumbling onto a situation where someone is getting beaten up and intervening might be a more plausible way of knowing. You tend not to realize what really happened until it's over and you start recounting it.

If you trained right and your body did what it was supposed to, things turned out well. "If your Aikido works", things may have even turned out acceptably well for the bad guy, since he got submitted instead of beaten to a pulp.

The OP was not style vs. style. It was about the relevance of individual techniques. When I post a question about martial application on a martial art forum, I assume it's going to go somewhere, or the website wouldn't exist. If I'm wrong, what are we doing here?

OwlMatt 09-25-2013 11:43 PM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
Quote:

Bill Danosky wrote: (Post 330215)
Stumbling onto a situation where someone is getting beaten up and intervening might be a more plausible way of knowing. You tend not to realize what really happened until it's over and you start recounting it.

If you trained right and your body did what it was supposed to, things turned out well. "If your Aikido works", things may have even turned out acceptably well for the bad guy, since he got submitted instead of beaten to a pulp.

The OP was not style vs. style. It was about the relevance of individual techniques. When I post a question about martial application on a martial art forum, I assume it's going to go somewhere, or the website wouldn't exist. If I'm wrong, what are we doing here?

You're right: the OP wasn't about style vs. style. But this conversation shows signs of going in that direction, and I think no good can come of it.

In general, I dislike discussion about using aikido waza against "bad guys", because those of us who have never attempted such a thing (that is, most of us) don't really know what we're talking about.

Brett Charvat 09-26-2013 12:39 AM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
Quote:

Bill Danosky wrote: (Post 330215)
The OP was not style vs. style.

-- Really? Then one wonders why you, the OP, first referred to certain aikido styles as "dance styles," while the more MARTIAL styles (presumably, your own Yoshinkan) are in contrast "re-legitimizing aikido as a martial art" (again, your words). I'll ask again, since you refused to answer previously; exactly which styles of aikido are the "dance styles" and which ones will focus on MARTIALNESS instead? I just want to know, so I don't piss my money away on silly dancing. Thanks in advance!!

Demetrio Cereijo 09-26-2013 10:28 AM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
What about waza to use against good guys?

phitruong 09-26-2013 11:56 AM

Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?
 
Quote:

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: (Post 330228)
What about waza to use against good guys?

beeriu waza following with chicken wing waza along with sushi waza.


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