Aikido vs. Kickboxing (video)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Bn59zha-uAQ
I thought you might like to see this, I found it interesting. Mainly because we hardly ever do anything with kicks at our dojo. Actually, I should probably ask my sensei about that :/ |
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The title's a bit misleading, as there's no actual competitive nature to the demonstration.
Clip itself is alright. Kicker didn't really seem to follow through with a lot of those. The irimi body movement against the kick to the thigh did not seem right. I'd be interested to see that with speed and power. |
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I would have like to have seen the kicks and punches more realistic. Overall a good demonstration. The attacker paused his movements, allowing a chance for the Aikido technique to be applied. Real resistance is better to really know if the technique will work. Kicks and punches that are not telegraphed or rehearsed in anyway. The approach should be given with as much realism as possible to make it dynamic, real test of the technique.
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Same thing applies for resisting. Which is bad for training. I think the clip is just fine as it points out that there are ways to defend against kicks which you rarely get to see otherwise. The clip is meant as demonstration and should be taken as such. |
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Very nice Demo
As to those who complained on not doing it faster or with resistence. Seeig this demp I was reminded of my teacher reharsing for a similar demo when I was starting to learn. He took one of his Advanced Aikido & Karate students (My teacher teaches both, and judo, for over 30 years) and worked with him on the show, They started workign faster and faster, my teacher did a technique on a kick, the student did not respond in time. I think they actually did the show in the end, but much, much slower. The falls from kicks are nasty, and knee locks in those situations are even moe dangerous then on the ground. Thus, this was a Great demo. Amir |
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Demonstrations are just that, rehearsed sequence of movements. Free style, punches, kicks, locks, chokes and throws that you don't see coming or you do see, but require some immediate reaction is crucial to test a techniques real effectiveness. Yes sometimes a person will be hurt or injured. Perhaps wearing some protective gear if you have the fear factor will help decrease the risk of injury. Demonstrations isn't real fighting. |
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Yeah, the video was OK, but as other posters observed...it was just a demo. You can't suspend your disbelief too long. I do have training in Shotokan and I do know how to kick, and I wouldn't have attacked like that.
However, that was the point of the demo: to prove that some of the techniques of Aikido can counter frontal and side kicks, perhaps also roundhouse...but no too sure about low kicks, especially to the knees. |
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Shouldn't that have been labeled aikido vs. karate?
Anyway, some nice techniques in there... |
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But I think there's a difference between getting injured in practice by accident, and getting injured in practice by intent or negligence. Welcome to the real world. |
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Not training a certain way because there's a chance of injury is like wanting to join the swim team without getting wet. Nothing wrong with training the way you mentioned...just don't dismiss other training methods as "bad for training". Especially since that's how many others train.
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Demos give an idea of what can be done. Picking them apart is usually a waste of time. It's often like looking at a movie and complaining that it's not real. |
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Further, I hate to break the news, but you can rarely prove or disprove the effectiveness of a technique by just practicing, even if you practice "free fighting". This way you could at most learn you don't know how to apply the technique in a situation , which may stem from one of many reasons: a. YOU have not practiced it enough Just last week my Sensei asked us to practice Ikkyo against a Jab. Even in this specific and supposedly basic Waza, my partner kept failing while I had no problem at all and kept asking him to increase the pace, retract the Jab and launch a second etc. The reason was simple - he only practiced for a couple of years I have over a decade of practicing on him, and we used a practical variation of the technique which was beyond his abilities to control, so I had to help him make it work. b. YOU miss identify the opportunity This is one of my own major areas of development in the last couple of years, learning to correctly identify the opportunities for technique, and then apply the suitable technique. The difficulty is mostly in timing - the technique has to be there with the opportunity, if you have only saw the situation and then started thinking of the suitable technique, made up your mind and started moving, you will always be late and your technique will never work. In my own mind, this is one of the more difficult part of Aiki to grasp, also known as softness and harmony – utilizing any movement of an attacker for your technique set up. There are higher levels, such as channeling a non-cooperating attacker intent in your favor (much more difficult then the above which only requires you to “read his intent” and act on it). c. Your teacher never taught you the technique in a practical way A sad yet true fact for some, is that not all teachers understand \ care about practical techniques. Some teachers never learned how to practically utilize a technique themselves. I remember a Demo by a respected Aikido teacher, who tried to show Aikido is applicable to self defense, simply by increasing the speed in the demo, I was disappointed because Uke kept attacking in a telegraphed way, and gave up his own stability in advance, but the more disappointing thing was the teacher kept his techniques long and based on multiple-steps, and only increased his speed. The techniques were not instantaneous and the circles were huge (which practically left lots of room for Uke to regain his balance and counter). Consistently practicing with “Free style play” can enhance your ability regarding the identification of opportunities (at least, this is our belief in Korindo Aikido and the one of the reasons we practice Kyoshu/Randori, see here for explanations - http://www.freewebz.com/aikido/lecture/unit6.htm). But, free play is always limited by your own model and safety, thus rendering it unreliable for any proof - I have seen people falling from bad techniques due to unjustified fear of a black belt (happened to me more then once). There is a great difference between suffering some pain and taking damage, the latter does happen on occasion, but we keep trying to avoid it. Further, we try to use our Kyoshu/Randori as a learning tool for each student, and not as an examination laboratory. We do not test our techniques, we learn!. Free play is a great time to teach one lots of things, from moving while being attacked (a most basic skill most people fail in during their first months. Often people fail even much later once placed under higher pressure then they are used to), through applying a technique in very slow yet non kata/waza settings, and up to reading and then leading\channeling intent. From our experience, we learn much more while practicing free play slowly (it is harder to practice in real slow motion, and not to jump your speed while you understand your mistake and see an hand going into your face). Quote:
Further, the safety depends primarily on the control of Tori (the strike performer) and less on Uke (strike reciever) ability to withstand the strike. The same does not hold true for Aikido – the safety relies primarily on Uke ability to evade the technique, Tori has to provide Uke with a safe solution. If Tori will press forward in full speed and strength and Uke will not have the time to respond, damage will occur (as has happened while practicing for the Kicking Demo I wrote about in my previous message) , Uke must not only know how to remain safe, but be able to utilize his safe conduit in the time Tori allocates him. Practicing in free style at full speed (for both sides) can hardly be done safely (as you can read in the link I provided – it is possible but requires a great teacher to stop highly skilled practitioners in time and judge the result). Lots of people often talk of practicing against resistance. Personally , I fail to see how one could really train Aikido style damaging locks against a resisting person without injury. How can you distinguish muscular and structural resistance? You should overcome the first, but if you crush trough the second you will create damage. I do have some solutions we utilize, but they actually mean getting into the situation and stop there, before the lock is actually applied. Being Israeli and having learned with Israelis all my life, I always saw people trying to force their way out of a lock (and lots of people going home with very painful joints). As a supposedly advanced student, I have also shown people I can get into advantageous situation against their unschooled resistance while moving much slower then they (had they been schooled – I would not have had a chance while moving slower). But I would be very careful about applying a technique in such situations, I may try, but trying is does not equate doing, I have caused enough damage acting the other way, as I progressed and learned. Thus I can only repeat my previous response regarding the video – It was a very nice demo of Aikido applied against kicking techniques. Oh, and I dislike the aikido Vs. ____ label it had. I saw a person demonstrating, not two M.A. fighting (ever seen a M.A. ???) Amir |
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Nice post, Amir! Very well-reasoned and it speaks of experience.
As mentioned in a prior post, I do have training in Shotokan and I do "use" it in the dojo when training for the purposes of offering a sincere attack (i.e. trajectory & range, not intensity) versus stylized and telegraphed attacks. Just as we have guys who have training in boxing, Shorin-ryu, Judo, TKD, etc. including a former Marine Corps CQC instructor (old school WWII/Korean War-era combatives and not LINE or MCMAP) who bring their wealth of information & experience with them and use it on occasion to demonstrate different types of attacks and counters that you might experience "in the real world." We do recognize the distinct possiblity that an attacker, once trapped in some sort of arm lock will most likely try to use their legs to break free of it. That's why I think it's imperative to always consider defenses against kicks. I always remember O'Sensei's quote concerning kicking and keep it playing in my head when training: "Ueshiba Sensei used to say, kicking leaves you momentarily on one foot, and for that moment you are in a very weak position. If you were to be swept off your feet, you would be finished. This is why lifting your feet off the ground is crazy." - from p.79 of Gozo Shioda's book Aikido Shugyo. Source: http://www.tsuki-kage.com/ueshiba.html |
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In the Bando demonstrations we always communicated to the defending person what kind of kick, punch, throw or choke to expect. They had time to respond, time to block, redirect the energy, throw or punch back with full knowledge. We wanted the demonstration to be impressive to invite new comers to the art. We wanted the demonstrations to be sensational, pretty and cool looking. The realty of applying some of the techniques in the ring were completely different. When you are in the ring, it's serious business. You mention timing and the difficult of it. You will NEVER get the PERCISION timing from a DEMONSTRSTION. Only real fighting will give you that. You have to fight to get precision timing. Sensei Hiroshi Isoyama, found this out when training with American Military Officers. Not a demonstration, but actual fighting, training. Listen, this man has more experience in Aikido than you and me put together. When he tried to apply koshinage on some of the American military officers they would just step over him. He tried to throw them, but he wasn't able to. There height was a factor for him. He changed his fighting technique by using his shoulder to execute the throw, a Judo inspired technique. He learned this from training, fighting , not a rehearsed demonstration. My Aikido instructor has over 20 years of training and teaches the art from a realistic perspective. He's sensei was Ali Hakeem, Shidoin. The methodology in which they use is definitely practical and experience is not a question. Injury will happen with real martial arts fighting. My current sensei has had broken arms, teeth knocked out and pull ligaments. It's martial arts and people get hurt. We are training for self defense. The video was a mere example of rehearsed demonstration. I would like to see you try some of those moves in the video against some of American Bando guys, under the current leadership of Maung Gi. |
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This video is fairly typical aikido in that the techniques are overly complex, unrealistic, and only possible with the assistance of a trained and compliant uke. The only thing novel about it is that he is doing these techniques against kicking attacks, which are usually not seen in aikido. Otherwise, there is nothing new here.
The title is also misleading since this is not aikido "vs" kickboxing at all, but merely aikido performed (and that word is very descriptive) using compliant kicking attacks as the initial movement. Had he actually been fighting against a decent kickboxer I seriously doubt that he could get off any of the techniques demonstrated in the video. |
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...and some of the defenses in this demo were suicidal.
The kneeling (00:10) to let a roundhouse go over the head? Hilarious. The catching of a high roundhouse (00:15) involved no effective defense of the head and a properly distanced kick would have landed on the head/jaw/neck with a high probability of KO. Blatant and awful tanking at (00:26,28,29,31). Shouldn't be allowed! The defense against low kicks appears to be no defense at all, I must be missing something. Lastly, the kicker is obviously an aikidoka too and loves the flashy falling down bits. |
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But anyways, sparing is a lot more then just body conditioning or exercise. It is the best way to teach someone how to learn to apply the theory they are learning everyday in class. I feel sorry for those out there who do not understand why they are doing it and what they can gain with the right mindset. I feel even more sorry for those who don't do it at all. |
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Nice post Don, I especially like this bit ;
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The main problem with this clip is the suggestion by the title that these techniques would actually work against a kickboxer. I don¡Çt think that was the intent of the person who made these clips, and I suspect the attacker in this video is not a kickboxer at all but an aikido student of the person demonstrating in the clip who probably has a little bit of experience in an art like karate or TKD but has by now been well trained to fall at the right times to make his teacher look good. The title seems to have been an invention of whomever posted this to youtube originally; it has been reposted by the creator (along with a second installment that has a few techniques that could actually work against a real attack) more recently under the less ambitious title "geri-waza". |
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Don, from what I can tell, you're truly a student and that's what makes you a good teacher. I tend to really like your posts. Thank you.
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Getting the feel for Aikido is what the training is about; not techniques. Techniques are vehicles for that feeling and I know I've surprised more than one of my buddies (and myself) with how i responded to their attempts at sparing...and they have a lot more real-life fight experience than I have ever had (0 wins; 0 losses; 0 draws). Take care, Matt |
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