Re: The Fear of Power
This is really getting ridiculous. Its like you people haven't watched a single one of the Star Wars movies.
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Re: The Fear of Power
I guess that initially "Power" is the motivator for training. Ueshiba seems mystical and powerful. This small man could defeat huge, powerful, younger martial artists. Then, as you start to get some "power" yourself, you test yourself outside of the Dojo, and you meet other very "powerful" people, you start to realize that power isn't really the goal, and never was.
The real goal is to be, for lack of a better word, okay. You want to no longer worry about who is going to take from you, who might beat you up, or who might make you feel stupid. You also realize that no matter how much "power" you have, you'll never have enough, there is always a situation bigger then you. At this point, once you feel accomplished, yet realize that your thirst for power was never really your desire at all, that you can finally get in touch with your real need; to be okay. If you are okay, it doesn't matter how weak you are, you're still okay. It doesn't matter if anyone takes from you, or beats you, you're okay. It's not about your ability to influence others with your "power" it's about being able to accept, with great joy, any path that your life may take. So I don't believe it's about "fear of power", it's about understanding that power was never the real goal. Easily said, but I'm sure not there yet. |
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Best, Chris |
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Tom |
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Tom |
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Best, Chris |
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If everything always goes my way, I'm young, strong, rich, admired, I have every kind of "power" one could wish for (except, acceptance). Any slight to me would feel like an abuse. If someone flipped me off in traffic, I would feel like the whole world was upturned, and poor me. The other end of this, is the kid who has no arms, no legs, and yet is happy as he can be to be alive. Even though he should be totally pissed that something took his arms and legs, he's happy, smiling and helping others deal with things like a "bad hair day". It's not about getting what you want, it's about wanting what you got- some cheesy song lyric, but it fits. I think this is what the Buddha was getting at, the ability to accept life as it comes, joyfully. You don't need any "power" if you can do that. I think Ueshiba realized this. But even if he didn't it's still the path I'm trying to work towards. |
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Making a horse lift up a hoof is not an easy task. If you try to use power to lift the hoof or to force the horse in any way (rope, chain, pully, whip, etc) the horse will only resist more and more. And next time he will remember what you did last time. He will have figured out new ways to resist you. The true way to go with horses is what I practice in Aikido as well; connect with the other without fear and without exerting power. Tom |
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In the abstract, maybe, but in reality - Ueshiba was a pragmatist. I'd note that Kisshomaru maintained that his father was not a pacifist, and neither was he. I also have in mind a number of situations in which Ueshiba specifically told students to be proactive and not "allow those cigarettes to be put out on their arms". Best, Chris |
Re: The Fear of Power
I don't think you understand, I'm not talking about pacifism. I'm not a pacifist, and can't ever see myself being one.
There is nothing wrong with choosing, and trying to accomplish something. If we get in a fight, I'm not going to let you beat me, I'm going to do my best to stop that. However if it happens, it's okay. Everything is just as it is, including my wants and desires, these things aren't bad, but my attachment to them is regretful. My need to make everything work the way I want it, and my attachment to it being that way. I'm not saying that it's wrong to be powerful, and live your life using that power as you see fit, I'm saying that when you really understand the world, you'll realize you don't need any power. |
Re: The Fear of Power
I may be over simplifying this but I think everyone is talking about Masakatsu Agatsu. We are learning to control ourselves. Through this control of ourselves we can control others. e.x. you can't throw someone if you have bad posture, first you correct your posture then worry about throwing. Put in the negative you can't control others if you can't control yourself.
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How could this possibly disturb you so much? Tom |
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As you say with the IP stuff - let's see some proof of a connection to Ueshiba. Best, Chris |
Re: The Fear of Power
I gotta admit than when I first saw the title of David's post, "The Fear of Power", I thought it was (uncharitably) stupid. Now after seeing the various posts, I find myself agreeing, in most part, with David. Other posters, for whatever reason, seem to not want to understand what David means by "power". They keep skirting around the fact that whatever you do requires "power", even if it is picking up my latte, right now (I wouldn't recommend it!).
To get technical, in physics, power is the rate at which energy is transferred, used, or transformed. To get philosophical, power is frequently defined by political scientists as the ability to influence the behavior of others with or without resistance. These definitions come from Wikipedia. Power does not have to mean using force against others, be they human or not. Of course, it can be, but it can also mean to use influence to achieve something, sometimes very subtle influence, even if it is the power to just walk away. Martial arts come in many forms, including the proper use of firearms. So, if it is power you want, a nice machine gun pointed, or fired, at you delivers a lot of power. But, that is not the issue here. We are actually not talking just about power, per se; but, of a particular type of power in aikido, whether you want to call it IP, or whatever. But really, if someone just wanted "power", they could just use the aforementioned weapons. I personally don't think IP could protect you from a full magazine, fired up close by someone who knows what he/she is doing. So, for me, the driving force behind this struggle (yes, a sometimes decades, life time, long struggle!), is not a struggle to achieve power, but curiosity, with the added side-effect/benefit of personal power. A so-called normal life, for some of us, for some of us, is not good enough. We want to find out, and understand, if what O'Sensei had, and others, was real. This, if so, can open up whole new realms. So we go thru the personal struggle to achieve "power", without fear. |
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http://yellowcreekfarrier.com/about_us They stand like that for hours and there are millions of pictures of horses being in that posture naturally? Or does the horse put its leg back down on the ground when you let go of its leg? Why does anyone have to find ways of keeping a horses leg like they do to work on the hoof if its all natural to the horse? So, again, you are making the horse do things that are not natural to its being. Power. Whether you use it or the horse gives it to you. And you are wanting the horse to put its hoof and leg in postures that it doesn't normally use. Who wins? You or the horse? Did you get the work done? You won. And if you make the horse better then its a win-win. If you don't do the work because the horse was too much, you failed to do your job. Failure means a winner and loser. The horse won by keeping to its nature. It had the power to overcome a human trying to get it to do things it didn't want to do. Contest between horse and man/woman playing out exactly like a contest between uke and nage in the dojo. Uke is pretending to have an aggressive nature and attack in some manner. Nage must alter that or be on the losing end of that attack. In aikido, the power is a means to appropriately match the attackers energy/attack and provide a win-win outcome. But it's still power and winning. |
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I have no better Idea of what Ueshiba thought, then you do. I never met him. I know what training in Aikido has outlined to me, and I speak for myself. As I said earlier, I think that Ueshiba was getting at this, but even if he wasn't, it's what I'm working for. It's a part of what my Aikido is about. Good luck to you in your training. |
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But, that aside, why do our arguments of what Ueshiba meant bother you when you yourself can give no substantiation for your statements as to the goals of Aikido? Best, Chris |
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*sorry for side track. please resume the discussion on the nature of power and us human nature. * |
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Frankly I have no idea if what you think Ueshiba was getting at was right wrong or indifferent. I'll let you and the historians hash that one out. But the Aikido community outside of the internet, that I speak with, doesn't sound like the picture you are painting (pun intended). |
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I do not need pictures of horses - I have them all day around me in a natural environment so I see their natural behavior on a daily basis. I already explained why there is no contest between me and the horse. Life is not about winners and losers. Life is not an ongoing contest. If you walk your dog or feed your cat would you see that as a contest? If you go out for dinner with someone do you see this dinner as a contest with the other person? I see your description of Aikido as incomplete. If I understand you correctly you suggest here that there are only two options in Aikido? Either uke wins or nage wins (how is this a win-win outcome?). In my practice of Aikido there are more possible outcomes. Tom . |
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Both the beauty and the strength are inherent in the nature of the whale. Real aikido also has both but it is possible to lose one or the other by excessive focus on the other. I think of the guy who does the "Real Aikido" videos on YouTube as an example of serious misunderstanding of the "strength" aspect, making his demonstrations not only violent but jerky and really uninteresting to me. However, we need not look outside this forum for examples of a denaturing of aikido through utter rejection of strength, resulting in something not only boring but embarrassing to watch. At least the Real Aikido guy, in wearing black belt, is consistent with that tradition. But, just as we can ask why a non-violent person would study a martial art, we have to wonder why they insist on wearing the black belt. Thanks. David |
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What I refer to here is not the purpose, but the popular image of aikido. People see Ueshiba's power and are drawn to the art, but they then have to deny that they're seeking power, especially "power over others." But at base, they have to deny that they're seeing power when most, at heart, are really seeking power over others. Aikido is no more about having power over others than the whale seeks power over others: it doesn't have to seek what it has. Aikido has power. Training in aikido is to develop one's own personal power. It's a natural pursuit, inherent in the human heart. I hope that makes it clearer. David |
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