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-   -   Aikiweb as a "Big Tent" (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21635)

phitruong 08-16-2012 01:20 PM
Re: Aikiweb as a "Big Tent"
 
i found aikiweb fascinating. i enjoyed studying folks, how they think, act and so on. this is like a great place to study psychology, sociology, anthropology, aikiology, and various other ology (not to be confused with orgy which is a different kind of social paradigm :) ). it's a great melting pot (the seafood kind). methink folks are trying to put order around their thought/ideas and expressed on the internet which, personally, is a bad idea, since the internet is an organized chaos or was it chaosily organized. i guess i learned from day one on the internet that

anyway, from my point of view, aikiweb or any of the internet forum is fascinating.

lbb 08-16-2012 01:21 PM
Re: Aikiweb as a "Big Tent"
 
Oh, jeez, here we go. What a waste of time. This is pointless. I'm outta here.

Chris Li 08-16-2012 01:27 PM
Re: Aikiweb as a "Big Tent"
 
Quote:
Conrad Gustafson wrote: (Post 314311)
Chris,

I always take your posts seriously, but in this case I think you're wrong. I didn't read that thread at all, so I went back and read the OP and the post in question from Dan (here it is). He used the topic at hand as a convenient excuse to launch into an off-topic manifesto.

The subsequent posters are also responsible for the thread going off topic, as they respond to the manifesto instead of the OP. The thread doesn't ever get back on topic after that. Janet's point in this thread is valid, IMO.

Conrad
Well, it's certainly a rant (nothing wrong with that) - but to the very end it's about cooperative testing, which makes it right on topic for me:

Quote:
This mindset we have all but been brainwashed into believing limits us, limits the teachers, and it limits the arts. It is why typical martial artists get there asses handed to them by people who actually know what they are doing with ki and appropriate levels of ki testing.
Those who advocate this highly cooperative practice as a static dojo model...will forever fail and will forever...FOREVER....literally run away,,,, from those of us who know what we are doing with ki under stress.

I think most people in Budo just want to love their budo for whatever it is, and want nothing to do with real testing.
When it comes to budo nothing is truer than;
Do not look to authority for truth
Look to truth for authority
Dan
FWIW...

Best,

Chris

akiy 08-16-2012 01:32 PM
Re: Aikiweb as a "Big Tent"
 
Hi folks,

Can we please move away from continuing the discussion of a now-closed thread here? I do not believe that was Janet's intent (although I'm sure she'll correct me if I am mistaken).

Thanks,

-- Jun

Jim Sorrentino 08-16-2012 01:33 PM
Re: Aikiweb as a "Big Tent"
 
Mark,
Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: (Post 314306)
That's really funny. Those "guidelines" of yours are exactly the same things you keep harping to Dan about ad nauseum in your posts to him.
So are you going to offer an opinion of the guidelines I suggested?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: (Post 314306)
Regarding STFU, read my post to Conrad. [snip] Was that an attempt at being disingenuous trying to make other people look bad? Unlike you, I won't tell you what to do. Jun is more than capable of doing that.
I believe that it is completely with bounds for participants in a discussion to ask each other to discuss things in a respectful way. You chose to read my request as an order --- which it was not. I believe that terms like "STFU" belong on Bullshido and similar boards, and not on AikiWeb. Expletives, whether stated explicitly or as acronyms, are not explanations. Would you use them in a discussion with Peter Goldsbury? I didn't think so. ;)

Jim

Conrad Gus 08-16-2012 01:37 PM
Re: Aikiweb as a "Big Tent"
 
Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: (Post 314309)
The beauty of this forum is that in becomes an in-vitro laboratory for people to work through ideas and beliefs about the practice of Aikido (and related arts). The significant limitation of this (and any other internet forum for that matter) is that it simply exists in cyberspace.

We are discussing, debating, etc. an area this is tangible. Martial arts exist as a "DNA legacy" of surviving physical/deadly conflicts. We no longer test those skills in seasonal battles amongst warring clan. The tests that some do employ have been tailored to allow for more than a live/die paradigm. Ultimately, the skills can or cannot live up to the claims made about them. I would like to believe ( I really do know better from reading some people's posts) that Aikidoka are unified in their shared belief that what O'Sensei taught was a MARTIAL art that was viable and stood up to repeated tests by many. I would like to believe that almost all of us would share a belief that O'Sensei's skills were unique to few and that they do not seem to be passed down as a whole entity. I would like to believe that many of us struggle to try and rediscover what made O'Sensei one of a handful of uniquely skilled martial artists at that point in history.

We can debate until time immemorial as to what those skills sets were and were not. There is a video legacy and first-hand account legacy (few of those people are alive today) to which we can begin to try and measure up to what we are seeking to achieve. There are those of us who go out and meet those who claim certain skill sets and abilities. We can see first-hand what we think that we know and can do. We can see first-hand what others think that they can do and know. These meetings have been occurring as long as martial arts has been around. Some of the meetings have been cordial and respectful, others were neutral in tone and others were deadly. Regardless of the nature of the meetings, the results spoke for themselves.

Today, we have people on the Aikiweb who make claims and steadfastly refuse back up what they allege. Today we have people on the Aikiweb who make claims and are out in the general public for some, if not all to experience. It is comical to me to read posts from those who refuse to meet others and find other verbal dance routines to avoid real contact, while at the same time claiming to know "better" than others. I do not expect that his pattern will cease by this thread, or many like it. Jun will continue to have to shut down threads because some people seem determined feel they have no obligation to have to live up to our shared heritage of real meetings and real results. This myopic pattern that exists within all styles of martial arts is only made worse in cyberspace.

Many of us take periodic breaks from posting due to this never-ending pattern of thread directions. This forum will hopefully continue to provide people with a variety of information (that significantly varies in relevance and reality-testing). The sad part is that in cyberspace, everybody can voice their opinions without having to stand behind their words. Many of us on the Aikiweb and other forums will continue to use this forum as an opportunity to broaden our understandings by taking words and ideas and having them tested and challenged so that we can remain anchored within martial realities. These realistic encounters and experiences are the foundations of respect within the martial community at large. Those who do not want to step up to realistic tests, experiments, challenges (it does not matter what you call them) have no one to blame but themselves when others end of disparaging what they say for lack of face-to-face candor.

In summary, I can only hope that we as a community display a more tempered approach in what we say, claim and ask for. The realities of martial arts breeds true humility, integrity and respect. That is why my closest friends are almost exclusively from the world of martial arts.

Marc Abrams
Marc,

No disrespect intended, but this is excellent example of "divisive rhetoric".

I'm not challenging your opinion (you have some good points, IMO) or your right to free speech, but it's Jun's forum and he has asked us (in this very thread) to steer away from this kind of thing.

Conrad

Janet Rosen 08-16-2012 01:41 PM
Re: Aikiweb as a "Big Tent"
 
Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: (Post 314316)
Hi folks,

Can we please move away from continuing the discussion of a now-closed thread here? I do not believe that was Janet's intent (although I'm sure she'll correct me if I am mistaken).

Thanks,

-- Jun
Thank you. It was an example, that's all. And my point is not, to loosely paraphrase Mark, "some people should shut up."

My point was and is very simple and applies to each and every one of us, regardless of how we train, why we train, where we train, etc.: Think about how and why you are posting. Is your post going to contribute to an ongoing actual conversation or be in essence a door slamming shut?

So if I were to re-phrase that paraphrase :) it would be "all people should sometimes shut up." I anticipate stepping out of this thread now, with a final plea for letting this be a space where people who train for different reasons and in different styles to have conversations.

Janet Rosen 08-16-2012 01:48 PM
Re: Aikiweb as a "Big Tent"
 
Jim and Mark you clearly have a history and it is not productive to rehash it here. Can you go PM?

Basia Halliop 08-16-2012 02:01 PM
Re: Aikiweb as a "Big Tent"
 
Quote:
There's nothing I can do with how our posts "feel" to people. I don't have an answer for that. It's something each person must find in the mirror.
I would argue that anyone writing anything, at least in any context other than a private journal, can and should care about how their writing comes across to other people. Otherwise what is the point of writing it down and showing it to others rather than just thinking it to oneself or writing it in a private journal?

Who is the audience of the writing intended to be? What is the intended effect on that audience?

Michael Hackett 08-16-2012 02:33 PM
Re: Aikiweb as a "Big Tent"
 
I have been a member of Rotary International, rely on what Rotary calls the "4 Way Test" and I've found it to be a great guide to fruitful communication.

Is it the truth?
Is it fair to all concerned?
Will it build goodwill and better friendships?
Will it be beneficial to all concerned?

Whether one subscribes to the tenets of any social or fraternal order, the 4 Way Test has helped me communicate respectfully with others - even though I may sometimes fall short.

Marc Abrams 08-16-2012 02:47 PM
Re: Aikiweb as a "Big Tent"
 
Quote:
Conrad Gustafson wrote: (Post 314319)
Marc,

No disrespect intended, but this is excellent example of "divisive rhetoric".

I'm not challenging your opinion (you have some good points, IMO) or your right to free speech, but it's Jun's forum and he has asked us (in this very thread) to steer away from this kind of thing.

Conrad
Conrad:

I did not try to be divisive, nor did I consider what I wrote to be an example of divisive rhetoric. I simply pointed out the advantages and limitations of this forum (and others) and with real meetings. You and I can agree to disagree (although I do not know exactly what you are disagreeing with) and to what I wrote as having to do with what Jun asked us to steer away from.

Regards,

marc abrams

kewms 08-16-2012 03:17 PM
Re: Aikiweb as a "Big Tent"
 
Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: (Post 314301)
That most Modern Aikido lacks aiki is a truth. That there is a training methodology to gain aiki is a truth. That aiki would make Modern Aikido better is a truth. There is no degrading in any of those statements. No more than Ueshiba stating that aiki would make any religion better.
The nature of truth is that it remains true whether people believe it or not, and regardless of how vigorously people defend or attack it.

As I said upthread, your position is well known. I even largely agree with it. That doesn't mean that it's productive to explain it *every* *single* *time* a more or less relevant thread comes up.

Katherine

mathewjgano 08-16-2012 04:23 PM
Re: Aikiweb as a "Big Tent"
 
Janet,
Thank you for your eloquence. I thought that was well put (they always are, in my opinion), for whatever it's worth.
I think in many cases the focus is more on the narrative than the conversation, if that makes sense, and I think that tends to cause us (I'm know I'm guilty of it) to pay less attention to the personalities we're conversing with; to shape our messages more in terms of our desire for delivery than in the way it will be received. Like Demetrio said (in another thread), people always apply theur own conceptions to any concept; I think it's unavoidable and putting things in terms of true/false or valid/invalid automatically changes the conversation. No we aren't all correct, but we have to respect the fact that those who are perhaps less informed (for the sake of argument) have the right to figure things out on their own. Right or wrong is irrelevant past a certain point. When it comes to furthering the conversation and promoting open-minded discourse instead of entrenched defenses of some narrative, we have to allow the potentially erroneous viewpoint some space to remain fluid. This means taking a proverbial step back sometimes, like you're suggesting. Now I hate to suggest to anyone to curb expressing their thoughts. The whole point of the internet and Aikiweb, as I see it, is to try to express our thinking, whatever it may be. But at some point (times like now for example), while maintaining that connection, I think it helps to let "aite" up in order to get them to reorganize in order to have something more useful to work with...if I'm making any sense. I dunno...my brain has slowly been melting through my ear-holes these past couple weeks; in more ways than one, so I apologize (to all) if I'm just adding another muddled message to the mix here.
And for the record I think Dan has adjusted his rhetoric a bit. I perceive a real effort for tightening up his message to include something softer than what I've perceived to be his "blunt" (direct) point of view. I apologize for shifting some focus onto him for a moment, but my only gripe with him in the past has had to do with his way of communicating and I think I've seen that shift to a softer mode.
Once again, rereading my post here, I'm left feeling like I recognized something I cannot adequately describe...and probably not seeing the forrest for the trees...
meh...
Take care folks, and thank you for continuing to share your thoughts. This "noob" appreciates your experienced insights.
FWIW.
Matt

kewms 08-16-2012 11:37 PM
Re: Aikiweb as a "Big Tent"
 
Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: (Post 314325)
I would argue that anyone writing anything, at least in any context other than a private journal, can and should care about how their writing comes across to other people. Otherwise what is the point of writing it down and showing it to others rather than just thinking it to oneself or writing it in a private journal?
Sometimes, the purpose is "thinking out loud," seeking feedback on ideas that may not be fully formed, or on a line of thinking that one has not yet fully explored.

There's a saying among writers: there is no writing so bad that it can't be improved, but a blank page is just a blank page.

At the same time, writers are very wary about distributing early drafts too widely. If I know something is bad and am seeking advice on how to fix it, it's not very helpful to tell me that my whole approach is wrong, I'm wasting my time, and I should take up basketweaving instead. Nor am I likely to get useful feedback on a sonnet from someone who thinks poetry is stupid.

Katherine

MM 08-17-2012 07:02 AM
Re: Aikiweb as a "Big Tent"
 
Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: (Post 314330)
As I said upthread, your position is well known. I even largely agree with it. That doesn't mean that it's productive to explain it *every* *single* *time* a more or less relevant thread comes up.

Katherine
This actually does relate to Janet's topic in this thread. I think if people look at the overall threads on Aikiweb in each forum (excluding Non-Aikido), you'd find that a high percentage of threads do *not* have, um, DanWeb (for lack of a better descriptive term) in them.

And that is why I have no answer to Jun's point about how things "feel" or even how they "seem". That's a personal issue that I cannot help with. Why does this content strike to the very bone of people? Really, the overall sentiment is what Janet posted. Which brings me back to Janet.

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 314320)
Thank you. It was an example, that's all. And my point is not, to loosely paraphrase Mark, "some people should shut up."

My point was and is very simple and applies to each and every one of us, regardless of how we train, why we train, where we train, etc.: Think about how and why you are posting. Is your post going to contribute to an ongoing actual conversation or be in essence a door slamming shut?

So if I were to re-phrase that paraphrase :) it would be "all people should sometimes shut up." I anticipate stepping out of this thread now, with a final plea for letting this be a space where people who train for different reasons and in different styles to have conversations.
In essence, I disagree with you, Janet. :) If you think about the overall arc of what you're asking, you're hoping that these "DanWeb" posts won't get posted so that threads won't get shut down or conversations won't get killed. In essence, shutting the door on "DanWeb" posts so that other groups can have their public conversations. You want to shut a door so that another might not get shut. But that's still saying to a group of people, please shut up so that I can enjoy this conversation. Now, I'm all for asking someone to politely keep to the parameters of the topic. If that means someone wants to keep the parameters to how their group/organization trains or does things, that's fine. I can bow out of the conversation.

However, stating "there needs to be a baseline respect for the disparity and breadth of all aikido" while also asking a group to not post is not the way to go. That's just asking people to shut up so other people can enjoy their conversation all the while saying that there should be respect for the disparity and breadth of all groups. IMO, it would be better to have people ask if the thread/conversation could be kept within specified boundaries (i.e. please don't talk about "DanWeb" stuff here).

I'm guessing we'll disagree. But I think we're okay with that (I am). :) We agree on things, we disagree on things. Makes for an interesting world.

Mark

Mary Eastland 08-17-2012 07:29 AM
Re: Aikiweb as a "Big Tent"
 
I think you are in a bit of denial, Mark. :) If you look back through the threads the pattern is obvious.

When someone out of that group (and there is a group) posts something that is pertinent to the topic, it is ignored. That is why it doesn't feel like a discussion. It seems like a political platform.

The only time something is responded to is when it provides a place to say: the first poster is wrong, your way is wrong and the only way, is the way the group talks about.

I know it is hard to see something when I am part of it. When I hear someone I respect tell me something, I need to look at it the way they see it. Humans often can't see the forest for the trees. I don't have to change but at least I could see it from their point of view.

I would like to be able to share ideas and exchange experiences with everyone that is interested in Ki development. :)

Demetrio Cereijo 08-17-2012 07:49 AM
Re: Aikiweb as a "Big Tent"
 
Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 314223)
But if Aikiweb is to be an online forum for the broad spectrum of people who enjoy training in aikido, there needs to be a baseline respect for the disparity and breadth of all aikido and frankly sometimes that just means choosing not to post so that people who DO a certain mainstream practice can discuss among themselves the things that interest them.
Sure, but IMO there is also the need of less passive agresiveness, less whining and a thicker skin. But asking for that to akido people is, as we say here, like asking an elm to give pears.

Marc Abrams 08-17-2012 07:55 AM
Re: Aikiweb as a "Big Tent"
 
Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: (Post 314361)
I think you are in a bit of denial, Mark. :) If you look back through the threads the pattern is obvious.
I am sure that you would also own up to your end of "denial" in the "pattern" that you talk about?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: (Post 314361)
When someone out of that group (and there is a group) posts something that is pertinent to the topic, it is ignored. That is why it doesn't feel like a discussion. It seems like a political platform.

The only time something is responded to is when it provides a place to say: the first poster is wrong, your way is wrong and the only way, is the way the group talks about.
Is that the only pattern that you have observed, or chose to comment on?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: (Post 314361)
I know it is hard to see something when I am part of it. When I hear someone I respect tell me something, I need to look at it the way they see it. Humans often can't see the forest for the trees. I don't have to change but at least I could see it from their point of view.
What makes you think that Mark, or anyone else for that matter, had not looked at things from the other person's perspective? The assumption that you make, smacks of elitism and is expressed in a manner that could be viewed by others as passive-aggressive (what Aikidoka being passive aggressive :eek: ). People can look at something from another person's perspective and still come to a variety of conclusions about the person's perspective. If a person concludes that the other person's perspective is wrong, crazy, etc. and expresses that opinion, you seem to automatically conclude that the person's perspective was not taken into account, the person was not "respected."

If we are talking about a topic that is purely abstract, then it is much easier for people to consider all ideas as having merit. If the topic is tangible in nature (aka- Aikido) then that approach is simply not realistic. people are entitled to their opinions about anything. That entitlement is not free from responsibility and reality-testing. There have been many opinion and ideas expressed on this forum that have not stood the "test-of-time" when "fleshed out in person." I believe that we gain a greater degree of respect when we can acknowledge the errors of our ways and learn from them, than we can ever gain from the "everything is good" approach. That approach is not realistic, viable or useful outside of not wanting to hurt the feelings of those whose egos are too attached to their ideas. The people that you like to attack, are typically the people who strenuously express, test and modify their ideas based upon real-life testing.

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: (Post 314361)
I would like to be able to share ideas and exchange experiences with everyone that is interested in Ki development. :)
I would qualify that to say that you seem to do so ONLY if their ideas and experiences are harmonious with what you already believe to be true.

Marc Abrams

Mary Eastland 08-17-2012 08:12 AM
Re: Aikiweb as a "Big Tent"
 
That last post is an excellent example of what I am talking about.

Anthony Loeppert 08-17-2012 08:54 AM
Re: Aikiweb as a "Big Tent"
 
Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: (Post 314363)
I am sure that you would also own up to your end of "denial" in the "pattern" that you talk about?
...
Is that the only pattern that you have observed, or chose to comment on?
Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: (Post 314364)
That last post is an excellent example of what I am talking about.
One post is certainly an excellent example...

Basia Halliop 08-17-2012 09:03 AM
Re: Aikiweb as a "Big Tent"
 
Personally, as far as I can see part of the basic premise of a normal conversation or of a discussion forum (as opposed to, e.g., a scientific journal or a newspaper or something with a more narrow goal) is that people can and will be interested in what they're interested in, will believe what they believe, and will want to talk about it with each other, even when you are convinced or even _know_ that what they're talking about is Objectively Provably Wrong. That's life, that's conversation.

Mary Eastland 08-17-2012 09:22 AM
Re: Aikiweb as a "Big Tent"
 
Quote:
Anthony Loeppert wrote: (Post 314366)
One post is certainly an excellent example...
Yes it is...and then someone else from the group coming out and making a snarky comment is another example of the bigger picture. :)

vjw 08-17-2012 09:36 AM
Re: Aikiweb as a "Big Tent"
 
Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: (Post 314369)
Yes it is...and then someone else from the group coming out and making a snarky comment is another example of the bigger picture. :)
How about coming out yourself, from behind your garden gate and meeting some of the people that have different views to you. You could then comment here on aikiweb on how the meet up went?

Mary Eastland 08-17-2012 10:01 AM
Re: Aikiweb as a "Big Tent"
 
I have.

vjw 08-17-2012 10:27 AM
Re: Aikiweb as a "Big Tent"
 
Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: (Post 314371)
I have.
Who was it and what are your thoughts on the meeting?


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