Beginners should not be allowed to act as uke.
I hope the title is sufficiently inflammatory. Having the role of uke performed properly is critical for anyone who is trying to learn techniques and principles. Until someone really understands the techniques being practiced and the principles involved, letting the act as uke does them a tremendous disservice. My complete thoughts on the subject are at
http://budobum.blogspot.com/2013/09/...hy-is-one.html And yes, I am wearing my asbestos undies. |
Re: Beginners should not be allowed to act as uke.
Quote:
|
Re: Beginners should not be allowed to act as uke.
I agree that you should try not to have newer/novice students working with other newer/novice students. That's why I try real hard to never allow pairings like that if they can be avoided in my dojo. However, there is much (as you allude to) that can be learned on the part of uke and nage (tori). Uke learns quickly that proper ukemi is important and exactly WHY it is important. The other lesson is for nage to learn they have to take care of uke and adjust the intensity of their throw according to uke's ability to take ukemi. That is where Jigaro Kano's lesson of Mutual Welfare and
Benefit (Jita Kyoei) comes into play. |
Re: Beginners should not be allowed to act as uke.
Pretty good idea. It worked for a couple hundred years worth of koryu. I doubt I am alone in still wondering why the hell Takeda taught his stuff ass backwards.
|
Re: Beginners should not be allowed to act as uke.
Quote:
Can you imagine him allowing anyone to be in an even momentary position of advantage? Also, the whole selling point of DR, and thereafter, aikido, is different. It's all about being--or appearing invulnerable. Throwing people with a just a twitch of the body. God-like powers. Just like the comic book ad that first got me interested - "throw people with mystical energy!" DR and aikido, at least among it's founders and leading lights, was an exercise in grandiosity, in posturing and impressing both onlookers and one's own students. As Stanley Pranin described to me when he visited the Sagawa dojo, as his students were being thrown, they were, while still in the air, exclaiming, "Subarashii!!!! Subarashi!!!" Quite apart from any level of skill Sagawa might have had, that he didn't tell them to shut the hell up says quite a lot. BTW - one place that even koryu instructors will not take ukemi is hojojutsu (nawajutsu). I cannot think of any teacher, certainly publicly and even in their own dojo, who would allow their students to tie them up. |
Re: Beginners should not be allowed to act as uke.
Thanks for the insight. In general I try to cleave to Hanlon's Razor when examining these types of things. I would prefer the answer to be that it was a mistake or have to do with something specific to the realities of Daito Ryu/Aikido training than because the old man was a budo miser with an napoleon complex who abandoned a multigenerational legacy of transmission in order to never appear weak and reveal as little as possible in front of the inquiring minds of his students. Unfortunately according to every expert I have asked, the latter seems to be exactly the reason.
|
Re: Beginners should not be allowed to act as uke.
Quote:
FWIW, here's what Sagawa had to say, from Yukiyoshi Sagawa on Bujutsu and Ki-Ryoku, Part 2: Quote:
Chris |
Re: Beginners should not be allowed to act as uke.
That is the least sustainable plan in the history of martial transmission. Sagawa is certainly Takeda's true heir.
|
Re: Beginners should not be allowed to act as uke.
Quote:
Best, Chris |
Re: Beginners should not be allowed to act as uke.
Quote:
I also emphasize repeatedly to nage that when working with a beginner their job is to guide them to the proper ukemi whenever possible; not just play "throw a newbie". I'll get out there and pair up with them as much as I can so I can feel what they're doing. I'll demonstrate on them, but hopefully only enough to demonstrate things they need to adjust. Then it's back to them trying on me and others. |
Re: Beginners should not be allowed to act as uke.
Quote:
|
Re: Beginners should not be allowed to act as uke.
I try to be kind and patient. BUT... New students should join the existing class and do their best to fit in. Personally, I grow weary of spending time paired up to a hack newbie who's never coming back, while my Shodan test draws ever closer.
Doesn't really cast me in a golden light, I know. That's why I do all that meditation- it keeps me from acting like this all the time. Well, I'll get my instructor's certificate next year. I can be generous then. |
Re: Beginners should not be allowed to act as uke.
Quote:
The care and attention might also contribute to a higher retention rate. |
Re: Beginners should not be allowed to act as uke.
Obviously, it is better for a beginner to train with a senior. In fact, in most Aikikai dojos I have ever been to, people change partner every time the technique is changed and so people get to train with all types. Except at Honbu dojo - of all places, though I heard that has changed (not sure). I think this is one great benefit of the Aikikai system. When I did Yoshinkan I often trained with the same partner for an extended period. Likewise, Jujutsu. In fact, in one Jujutsu school I was at it was considered beneath you (as a senior) to train with beginners. Pathetic, so I thought.
|
Re: Beginners should not be allowed to act as uke.
I see nothing wrong with beginners practicing together. This is aikido, the art that can be practiced until your long in the tooth, so you got time to fix any problems. I haven't suffered from it. Besides, what's an instructor to do when starting up a new dojo.
|
Re: Beginners should not be allowed to act as uke.
Quote:
We want our students to make as much progress as possible, so loading them down with the weight of easily avoided bad habits seems counterproductive. |
Re: Beginners should not be allowed to act as uke.
We don't do separate beginner's classes. Our basics classes generally have enough folks with experience that newbies don't have to pair up. The general rule is the usual aikido one of the senior starting as nage....but if I'm with a newbie I'll generally just take the nage role once, on one side, to observe protocol, then switch to being uke and not switch back to nage unless there is a reason to (and yes, we change partners with each technique, so I'm not just taking ukemi all night). I never feel my practice suffers doing this...I feel I"m better serving the newbie and I'm improving my ukemi skills, my understanding of the technique, and focusing on my structure very nicely.
|
Re: Beginners should not be allowed to act as uke.
Quote:
I learn a lot from how my technique is actually going by slowly practicing it on someone who has not had their body reflex 'conditioned' to it.. so they do not move 'as expected' unless I do everything correctly. It is a wonderful opportunity to practice and refine the lines/angles of your waza. I am in a similar position as Bill with feeling like I need to focus on Shodan grading etc... however it is activity encouraged and practiced to not let new people train together and more so to stagger the relative experience as much as possible. So higher kyu's pair up with with new people and when they are taken care of, then lower kyu's will pair up with any remaining higher kyu's. The result is generally well balanced and the 'middle kyu's' will sometimes end up together. In the end, I get a lot of valuable information regardless who I train with and it is all useful heading towards Shodan. It is a very enjoyable way to practice. |
Re: Beginners should not be allowed to act as uke.
It's nice sentence in the beginning of thread but it looks like game with only one goal. All talks are about how to make training more effective for rookies. However no one mentioned about seniors training in that case.
Pay a lot attention to rookies is important to keep their interest to practice. Even in such case some of them quit practice maybe next week or next month. So bet on rookies isn't good time spending, IMHO. They don't prove the seriousness of their practice in one week. On other hand is seniors who had to practice with guys "near by zero" level. How they suppose to increase their skills with rookies? I know "rule" how to increase own skills. It's "if you'd like to be more skillful you had to practice with guys that more skillful that you are now". Obviously that for rookies practice with seniors is the best way. Seniors get a bit more than nothing of that. Yes, it's totally selfish wish to be better than yesterday, but isn't budo created as a tool that makes you better? I found one way to solve this problem. Rookies start from basics of the basics like ukemi and other that they could do without a partner. Friend of mine had half year ukemi, taisabaki, atemi and combinations of taisabaki and atemi at the beginning of his aikido practice. Of course there are many more exercises in aikido to build strong basics for techniques. And rookies have time to prove the seriousness of their wish of long term practice. Proper ukemi and attacks are keystones of this as I call it "rookie course". Good ukemi serves for safety in further practice and attacking skills they need for correct techniques. Both of it's make at least good uke from rookies. Another friend of mine spent few months to ukemi only when he had started judo. After that group has kind of ukemi test -- coach throw all of them few times. Students with good ukemi starts practice but students with not so good ukemi continue with it. Back to the problem as far as guys becomes good uke they should start to practice in pairs. This is nice time to the most skilled senior to lead them and show them "pictures" of techniques. Why it's only one person? Different persons with different personalities have different points of view to aikido practice and pays attention to different things. As for me the worst thing to rookies progress been taught by different persons. They started to know many but did nothing solid. Senior has rare chance to try skills on guys who don't know "rules of the game". It helps to improve senior's skills also. The last step is mix group of new students with seniors. It moves new students from "picture" to ideas of techniques. Different seniors shows them rich field of different points of view to ideas. Of course I don't think that such program will be popular and draw a lot people into training. I only think that it helps to create students with good enough skills. |
Re: Beginners should not be allowed to act as uke.
Quote:
As for the beginners themselves, I think we can distinguish between "acting as uke" and "learning to take ukemi". A brand-new beginner needs to learn to take ukemi, and there's no other way than to do it - but for a while, they're not functionally "acting as uke" (as nage desperately tries to keep "uke" from hurting him/herself or patiently guides "uke" away from a situation that would lead to one's clock getting well cleaned in a hostile situation). |
Re: Beginners should not be allowed to act as uke.
Sounds like a good plan to me. But good luck convincing the aikido establishment that the teacher should be the one taking ukemi (at least in the beginning stages, as the teacher would be the most qualified to give feedback to the student; I mean how the heck can a beginner know if what they feel is correct or not?).
|
Re: Beginners should not be allowed to act as uke.
Why some aikidokas don't like to practice with beginners?
Because when you practice with a (very big) new beginner, then you know what is your real level in aikido not the level you think you are. A (big or not) new one does not know where to go since he does not know the technique, you have to lead him. Sure it is easy to break his face or something if he does not do what you want but to my taste it very low level aikido. A beginner is a perfect test for your aikido. After the practice with him or her, you know what you have to work on to better yourself. |
Re: Beginners should not be allowed to act as uke.
Quote:
|
Re: Beginners should not be allowed to act as uke.
Quote:
|
Re: Beginners should not be allowed to act as uke.
Quote:
Does any of this make sense? |
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:02 AM. |
Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.