quickness & accuracy
 

Hey everybody. I watched this video today:

http://media.skoopy.com/vids/vid_00456.wmv

and it got me thinking about how real attacks often come in flurries, very quickly closing distance between the two parties and even when the attacker's technique is sloppy at best, it can be so quick and aggressive that it may be difficult to pull off a technique. I think the best preparation one can have is to have realistic-type training in the dojo, where (at least every now and then) uke goes a little nuts and attacks in flurries like that with full energy and aggression. I could see myself, however, missing an attackers arm and ending up getting socked in the pressure of the situation.

Any tips other than train, train, and train some more?

In thinking about it more, perhaps mental training is the most important preparation for this attack--or any other. If you stay calm and focused and ignore the hits you do receive, you should be able to complete a technique or two.

peace
Peter

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

We do something you might find relevant:

http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/v...eflection.html

still, the answer remains, "train, train, train."

Hang in there,
dmv

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

Peter,
That altercation could easily be controlled with Aikido. And you should not believe otherwise, not for a second. There were dozens of opportunities for the blond guy to control the situation, if only he had skill, just have faith in your training of Aikido. Heavens knows I have doubts about Aikidokas taken down bigger guys, or multiple attackers, but that guy would have been a walk in the park, for he was handling himself quite haphazardly. Like David said, "train, train, train."

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

It's funny you have doubts about aikidokas taking out bigger guys and multiple opponents when that's what aikido was made for. However, I think I know what you meant. ; )

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

That altercation was a show of fury with no skill. Both sides missed so many obvious points to finish, it is amazing. Making a list would be too long, but the number of possibilities for anyone trained, in any M.A., was astounding.

If it does show anything, it is the importance of practicing the mind. Some people, when under attack, lose their functionality, and then the fight degenerates to this level.

Amir

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

If I may ask a question:
I watched the practice, and loved the flow of the attacks, but the defender movement seemed disappointing to me. Looking at the video the defender rarely moves out of the line of attack, and almost never moves forward. I don't see any Irimi or Tenkan, not to speak of other tai-Sabaki.

I only glanced over the explanation, perhaps this type of movement backwards is an intentional limitation on the practice, if so, please explain the reasons for it.

Thanks for your clarifications.
Amir

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

10 lbs of extra muscle could have helped.

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

Hi Amir,

This is also in the explanation... You are right, it is one of the limitations we set up for the drills - limiting the amount of movement one can do as "defender." The point of limiting the movement - either not moving and/or only opening certain angles to which one can move, etc. - is to increase the stress and tension of the ballistic attack. The point of increasing the stress and tension of the ballistic attack is to further cultivate one's mental and technical composure, particularly regarding metsuke and Angle of Deflection (i.e. blocking, parrying, checking, etc.) - which, as you say earlier, can often break down under such pressure.

The drills are trying to cultivate greater skills under a higher scenario of duress. You can have folks punching faster, harder, etc., to do this, but once you've figured out how to move reasonably well not everyone in the dojo is going to stress your metsuke and/or your Angle of Deflection, etc. So we opt to make it harder on the "defender" by restricting him/her from relying on their body movement to relieve pressure. Under this perspective, for example, the drills are attempting to duplicate those times when your opponent is so skilled it feels like you have no Angle of Deviation because he/she is so well versed in closing off such things. However, the drills are very much aimed at telling us something about the state and/or quality of our body/mind.

Later drills, when greater and more subtle Angles of Deviations are permitted, seek to capitalize upon the higher cultivated skills of metsuke and Angle of Deviation, etc. In these drills, the restrictions limiting the attacker to only ballistic strikes are also lifted.

If you got a chance, I would recommend reading the explanation, it goes into some detail on how to perform these drills, what is being done in these drills, etc.


Hope that makes sense, if not, please feel free to ask more questions/make more comments.

thanks,
dmv

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

Interesting...at a certain level, 10 lbs of extra strength seems to hurt my technique.

Yoshinkan stresses forward movement, forward focus. But for the purpose of these drills, I think the backward movement at angles without crossing the feet works well. It allows you to not get set on your heels, to not get 'mobbed', to keep moving and sucsessfully entering on uke when under a lot of pressure. Looks like a good drill to me. I need to do more work like that.

Best,
Ron

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

I think one way of seeing what these drills do is to just stand there and let someone go "ballistic" on you. Have a friend stick some gloves on and tell him/her to just go for it - making sure they are striking from within hand-weapon range. Then note of how we tend to duck with our head down, close our eyes, look away, just stick our hands up with no rhyme or reason, etc. The guy in the video is doing this all over the place. It's the pressure of the barrage that does this - in combination with our lack of skill in facing such things. To respond in an educated way to such tension, one, in my opinion, has to be "pressure tested." In pressure testing ourselves, we should realize that there are folks out there (e.g. boxers, wing chun practitioners, karateka, kick boxers, etc.) that possess many skills to make it seems as if we are standing still. If we are skilled under such pressures, when we do add our movement to the fray, we can actually use their tendency to cut off angles against them (via irimi and tenkan) - as an example of what one might do.

The drills are also a great way of understanding te-sabaki at a whole other level. That's always a plus as well.

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

Nice stuff David. Working waza against people who cut off angles is one of the tougher aspects of training. We've spoken in other threads about boxers, karateka, etc...one thing they do well is cut off angles of entry.

Best,
Ron

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

Regarding the film:

I think Aikido technique would come through in the shoes of either of those guys.

I don't know if the issue of training against "those types" of attacks is the issue here--I don't know either way. I view the main problem in that altercation to be a total lack of balance of both participants which result in both having a lack of mobility and a lack of power behind the attacks.

To me, we do train against those attacks--hay-makers=side strikes. Further, I see a category within Aikido for all the attacks that were launched in that situation.

Just my thoughts.

By the way, very nice film. One of the first ones that I've seen that look somewhat like serious fights I've seen.

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

I would agree, only I think one has to keep penetrating these issues in his/her training, such that one asks, "What makes me lose my balance?" "What makes me have a lack of mobility?" "What makes me have a lack of power?" Etc. When you ask these kinds of questions, and when you bring these types of reflections into your practice, you very quickly realize that the mind plays as big a role as the body in what you can and cannot do under duress.

The following video in particular demonstrates what I am talking about in regards to things like metsuke and Angle of Deflection, as they are related to the mind (and the connection the mind has to the body).

http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/v...ningstage.html

The two deshi in the video seem to be affected in a very similar way. Yet, the woman has never trained in any art before Aikido, and she has only trained for about six months. The man in the video has rank in Karate and came from a type of Karate that practices full-contact kumite. Still, you can see them both over-reacting in their Angle of Deflection, being fettered by fakes and feints, falling victim to timing changes, closing their eyes, turning their heads, etc. This all pertains to the level of training their mind has received up to this point. In a real fight, with either weapons or with someone capable of generating real ballistic power (unlike the "victor" in the amateur video) these failings of the mind are the "events" at which one would lose his/her balance, mobility, and the capacity for powerful counter-attacks.

It is like this. You have these beautiful Aikido tactics, but in order to get in a place where they would be applicable, in the way they were designed to be applicable, you need a whole other set of skills that are very hard to attain through Kihon Waza training alone. However, it is not that I am suggesting that we should seek to train against "types" of attackers. Rather, we should be interested in the cultivation of a mind that in its maturity is capable of addressing more situations than just that which is mimicked in Kihon Waza (when it is being understood as a combative dynamic). Here, in these beginner drills, composure, balance, grace, awareness, etc., - these are the things that are being pressured. To pressure these things, we have taken on the ballistic architecture of certain arts. It is the pressure that is important, not the architectures of whatever arts we are using. I think this point is made in the first video where the "defender" is limited in both Angle of Deflection and Angle of Deviation -- where he/she must simply learn to look at the strikes that are hitting them.

Once we understand the value of pressure, on what it tells us about our mind, and thus what it reveals in regards to what is mechanically available to us and what is not, we start to see that we have options other than the usual "just irimi." This is important, because it will allow us to actually perform irimi in a way that is consistent with the art's strategic considerations. That means we can irimi without muscle and along the path of least resistance, etc. That means we will not just move forward and jam our opponent up, hoping we are stronger than them or that they do not know how to utilize our yang energies against us, etc. After all, the goal is to bring as much as possible, nay, to bring all of what we see in Kihon Waza into spontaneous conditions of any kind. The goal is not to just take bits and pieces of Aikido (e.g. irimi, arm bar, etc.) and "work" them as best we can. Though that is what we often do, it is not what we should strive for. In looking toward what we should be striving for, I feel, we have to learn to depart from Kihon Waza training. Of course, we must do this in a way and at a time that is appropriate.

Thanks for the replies,

dmv

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

Hi David,

I have just watched your video; and I like your drill. Some question… is the shite allowed to execute a technique in response to your feint and attacks? Or rather in this drill, are they only allowed to block and evade? It is just that I see many opportunity to apply technique as the uke comes in to attack.

Just curious… why does the shite keep moving back? This could just be my training, but I am drilled to irimi, irimi or more irimi into uke's zone; sort of tying up uke's ability to strike. If uke is coming fast and furious at me, then it is tenkan tenkan and more tenkan. We do not move backwards, as it allows more continuous attacks to follow.

Nonetheless, it is a good method of training. Gambatte!

Boon.

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

David

Thanks for your reply, very interesting.

How would you compare the exercise you show in the video with Randori, multiple attackers exercises, or armed attacker free exercises (Tanto/wakizashi//Boken attacking i non-cooperative manner) ?
I think these exercises can have the pressure element (if one wishes to) yet remove the limitation on Tai-Sabaki. Since one wishes to respond with Tai-Sabaki to pressure, the limitation on it is problematic from the point of view of instilling bad habits. Any other alternatives you would suggest?

Amir

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

It seems that people tend to miss the point that David is addressing within the parameters of these videos. That is:
To ask the question what would you do in this or that situation is to miss the point.

Restrictions are put in place to force the person to "deal" with the "attacker". As they progress then the restrictions are removed.

To allow shite/nage to end with a technique would just be a continuation of training for specific scenerios and would not neccessarily bring one to a level of being able to apply spontaneous Aiki in a realistic manner.

(or have I missed your point David?)

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

I agree Charles. I know us yoshin orgres (or is that orcs?) like to move forward, but against someone cutting off angles, larger, stronger, with good striking skills, it's not always possible. Learning to deal with that is an important addition to the arsenal.

I've been thinking a bit how unarmed aikido is at something of a disadvantage...without some type of weapon/skill for enforcing ma ai, aikido becomes very difficult in certain situations. I think the discussions around generating power from the use of kokyu ryoku can help here. That power might function as one of the methods of enforcing ma ai. Weapons are an obvious one as well. Striking ability might be another. Mental composure and the ability to work going backwards at angles to the attack is another. But without those, enforcing ma ai where movement alone is insufficient is an interesting problem.

Best,
Ron

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

"Interesting...at a certain level, 10 lbs of extra strength seems to hurt my technique."

But did it decrease your chances of dominating in a brawl?

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

That would depend on who I am brawling with. :) In other words, against a single, weaker, less skilled opponant, 10 lbs of extra strength would be a plus.

Against multiple, stronger, more skilled opponants, bent on serious injury or death, as opposed to general rough housing, I would rather sacrifice 10 lbs of strength for X amount of skill and technique. I've tended not to get into "brawls" since about 22 years of age (I'm 44 now). While I do not view myself as intimidating, some others obviously consider me intimidating enough to think twice about "brawling" with me. In a serious attack, strength is always a consideration, but my own brawn is not my top consideration. If it was, I'd be lifting weights on some more than occational basis. Not training aikido.

Also, since I do train in aikido, I tend not to focus on 'dominating' so much as 'surviving'...I don't want to struggle to win. I want to step outside of winning and losing if possible. If that means getting roughed up a bit to survive...I hope my ego can stand that. On the other hand, I try not to let myself be weak, either. :)

Best,
Ron (best of all possible worlds is, obviously, best... :))

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

I dunno if anyone noticed, the black guy looked like he knew abit of throwing n grappling, but still its pure brawling. Its a shame how people make use of the martial arts for such crap.

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

It was interesting how it seemed he was going for an armbar at one point...like he had seen it in the UFC or something. It's also interesting that he seemed to have no clue how to really make use of it, or apply it, or finish with it. Arm chair jujutsu expert.

Best,
Ron

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

Right, he did tis sloppy armbar which he cldnt do anything with it. Also, he threw the white guy on the ground at least twice, perhaps hes juz being lucky or the other guy already had weak knees.. heh

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

(This is long, but I wanted to address what others were asking and also to better formulate my own position for my own sake. Long as it is, I would greatly appreciate it if some would read it since I would dearly love to hear comments after these attempts to answer some of the issues raised above.)

First:

Charles, you have said exactly what I was trying to say, only perfectly. Thank you.

Second:

Amir, Boon, and others kind enough to participate in this thread,

As way of analogy, it is kind of like doing Chi Sao (sticking hands) while blindfolded or with your eyes shut. Taking the sense of sight away "pressures" other aspects of the overall skill set that are developed through Chi Sao into greater and greater levels of maturity. The point of such training is not to say, "I usually fight with my eyes open" or "This is how you would fight at night or when you get sand kicked in your eyes." The point is to hone certain aspects of a certain skill set by taking away those options that are related but that we are most likely to become over-dependent upon via habit and/or ignorance.

That said, I would still like to address some of the issues raised above. I think I can tie them in a bit in an attempt to keep discussion going and to better explain the drills in question so that folks might be able to try them out themselves.




So let us say irimi is your thing -- is your tactical solution to addressing things like a barrage of ballistic attacks. The question remains, "How do you irimi?" It is not enough to say, "You just do it." How do you irimi? This question has to be understood as both a theoretical one and as a practical one. That means we have to ask, "What does it mean to irimi?" "What allows for irimi?" etc., AND we have to ask, "What prevents me from doing what I mean by ‘irimi'?"

I want to problematize the notion that "we can just move forward (any ol' way) against someone throwing a barrage of ballistic attacks." Why should that notion be problematized? Two reasons: A) Irimi as it is demonstrated in Kihon Waza is not the same thing as "just move forward." Irimi requires the presence of certain things that make it a tactical element capable of remaining viable as an aspect of non-resistance and thus as something you can use against bigger adversaries, etc. -- things central to Aikido praxis. For example, irimi, being mostly a yang move, requires the presence of an energy that is mostly yin in our adversary. To be able to capitalize upon this yin energy, we need to be capable of "sensing" this energy. So already, we are talking about a matching of yang to yin energy (theory) and we are talking about a capacity to both sense and correspond these energies (practice). B) If we cannot grasp at the level of theory and at the level of practice what is going in (A) we are either going to jam our opponent, losing the maai (i.e. the harmonious correspondence of yin and yang energies) that is relative to all of Aikido waza, and/or we are going to require that we be heavier, stronger, and more powerful than our opponent (such that our energy level is always yang in relation to whatever energy level our adversary is able to demonstrate). This means, in short, we will not be doing Aikido. However, it means more as well…

Aside from not being too successful against heavier, stronger, more powerful opponents, it also means that we will probably not be as successful against a weapon-wielding adversary and/or against multiple attackers. This is because moving forward in a way contrary to Aikido irimi changes time and space (i.e. the maai). It does this in such a manner that we become vulnerable to weapons (i.e. objects capable of piercing -- of penetrating yang forces regardless of the factors involved), and/or of being tied up -- being held, grabbed, and/or forced into an in-fighting or a ground-fighting situation. You can see all of these openings taking place in the video offered in the first post. The blonde gentlemen is smaller than his adversary, so his attempts to move forward do not work; he gets grabbed, dragged to the ground, and is vulnerable from someone else coming in from the crowd.

On top of that, and here is the clincher, you better hope your adversary is not the least bit skilled in capitalizing upon misplaced or forced yang energies -- see video below of what that might look like:

http://www.fightvids.net/content/mar...siantech1.html


So you see, you want to irimi. You do not just want to move forward -- whether that is to the inside or the outside of the opponent's outer rim and/or his attack. You want to match Yang energy to Yin energy, harmoniously. This is what you see, or should see in Kihon Waza. However, everything is so perfectly matched by design in most Kihon Waza that we are very likely to develop little in terms of skill - since everything is already in a full state of development by design. Thus, at times, you have to use that design not only to repeat such routines, the way a dancer might go over some choreographed steps repeatedly, you will also have to use that design to inspire adopting its elements at a personal level -- the way a dancer maintains his/her own sense of feeling and expression of mood in a piece of choreography or the way he/she may give experience to the rhythm of a piece of arranged music, etc. When you are trying to do the latter, attachment to the form, or the form itself (as it is subjectively experienced) can actually be your biggest hindrance -- that thing which you must overcome. This is the "Ha" of Shu-Ha-Ri.

When this is your objective, you soon realize that there is a lot to irimi that the forms just assume to be present and that you have to go after by different means if you truly want them to be yours at a personal level. This is how I understood the first post actually -- as asking, "How do you get these things?!" As an example, let us ask, "What are two of these things?" They are: an awareness that remains oriented upward and outward (as opposed to one that is oriented downward and inward -- which the uncultivated practitioner adopts under pressure, and which you can see the blonde guy in the first video adopting); and an Angle of Deflection (one that first capitalizes upon the aforementioned awareness and that can then go on to create a redundant defense that can attach itself to your irimi).

You want to "know" what is coming, and you want to "know" what you can do (i.e. you want to be sensitive to yin energies, you want to be sensitive to when and where you can place yang energies). You also want to move/deviate one way with your body while using your hands to keep your adversaries weapons moving the other way and/or to prevent them from tracking you. You want a redundancy between your Angle of Deflection and your Angle of Deviation (this is seen in the forms in all of the te-sabaki from all of the "grab escapes" of Kihon Waza). The forms just assume these things by design, but that design, through our fear, our pride, and our ignorance, can often prevent us from assuming these skills for ourselves.

For example, the forms allow us to repeat such a sought after awareness over and over. However, since part of the form is not getting hit (a fact made worse by the tendency for uke to miss nage at all costs and/or by the tendency for nage to react more to the choreography than to uke's actual movements) there is a very good chance that our so-called awareness has more to do with this element of the form (i.e. not getting hit, not being pressured) than with any real cultivation of proper martial awareness. Sure, under prime conditions (e.g. one mid-level punch that goes flying by you as long as you step to the side slightly and move forward slightly), we can stand there with our nostrils flared, our mouths closed, our eyes slightly squinted, and our gaze penetrating the environment to the great beyond. However, one little pop (which we never really experience in the forms), and our mind goes in and down -- awareness becomes egocentric. Hence, the drill in the first video, where the "defender" spends time conditioning themselves to maintain awareness while actually being struck -- again offered here:

http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/vids/metsuke.html

In this video, you can see, after the first fade out/in (after the start of the video), my deshi allows his awareness to go egocentric -- he thus turns his back and cannot sense what I am doing. I show him that he has done this by capitalizing upon the opening. Etc. What one is trying to develop here is a capacity to prevent his/her awareness from going egocentric -- which the forms just assume will be yours. Strikes are used here not as a way of "toughening up the body," but rather they are being utilized because the fear of being struck and the pain from being struck have a strong tendency to drive our awareness inward and downward. We do not want our awareness to go egocentric -- our forms assume we will not do this in combat. However, we cannot and should not assume it for ourselves. Therefore, you make up this drill and you measure yourself by how much awareness you can maintain throughout the barrage. You give the students a very simply physical attribute to focus in upon -- their gaze. Why? Because of the intimate ties that the gaze has with awareness. To understand more of what is involved, you simply have to try the drill. It is very easy to practice and it is very easy to see how our awareness can be affected egocentrically by being struck and by the fear of being struck. This would seem important -- I feel -- since being struck is such a likely part of combat but plays almost zero part in actual Kihon Waza training.

Nevertheless, you have to realize you are not just learning to be hit. Rather, you are measuring, cultivating, and properly orienting your awareness. You are just using being hit to do that. Therefore, you want to move beyond being struck and come to address some other element of irimi ashi. However, when you do this, you do not want to ignore these awareness factors. Thus, you say, "Let's work on Angle of Deflection. If you are aware, if you are able to sense what is happening, you should be able to deflect nearly anything and everything, especially at this pace. If you are not aware, you are going to get struck and you are going to reveal that you were not all that aware in the first drill and that you were just practicing getting hit (which was not the point)." This last point is important because if you get hit repeatedly in the second drill you are going to go back to the first drill and try and do it differently -- making more sure you are not just getting hit and that you are actually working to prevent your awareness from going egocentric.

However, because the training still revolves around maintaining proper awareness, such that we can now deflect (and later irimi with -- see below in drill three), we have to realize that folks are going to find ways of responding habitually to the pressures contained in the drill. That is to say, folks are going to find ways of not cultivating awareness AND not having that fact exposed to them -- due to fear, pride, or ignorance. What does that mean? You are going to see many folks trying to use their body movement more to not be hit, rather than using their awareness of what is happening to deflect. So what do you do? You restrict movement and ask folks to stand as still as possible, to attempt to remain as engaged to the Line of Attack as they were in the first drill when they had to work on maintaining awareness while being struck.

What are you looking for in drill two then? You are looking for not being hit, for deflecting what is thrown at you, and for sensing what is coming in before it is even actually thrown. However, as the last drill was not about being hit, this drill is not about blocking. Moreover, you do not want to deviate all over the place and/or prevent the attacker from throwing strikes at you because this would prevent you from cultivating the awareness you are seeking -- as it would alleviate the pressure to have your awareness go egocentric. Moreover, while deviating all over the place may prevent you from being struck -- though one should not imagine that you will not be struck at all -- such deviation will do nothing for actually using irimi ashi in combat. Why? Because while irimi ashi capitalizes upon the presence of a yin energy in the opponent, it always penetrates fully to the source of his action. Thus, irimi is like an arrow that pierces another arrow the full length of its shaft by following the grain in the wood. It does not seek to go around the arrow. There is nothing "cowardly" in irimi ashi. Therefore, in order to perform it in combat you will have to learn how to stay close, how to stay near the heart of the matter, you cannot be dancing all over the place trying not to get hit. Here is drill two -- offered here again:

http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/v...eflection.html

So, you got awareness going, you have pressured it first with being struck and then second with the task of preventing you from being struck, and now you want to put it into something that more closely resembles what you find in Aikido Kihon Waza. Why? Because, as I said, you are trying to learn Aikido -- trying to bring what you see in the forms into real life. You are not out to, for example, practice kickboxing and/or to learn how to fight against a kick-boxer. However, you do not want to forget about the awareness factors you are using to bring the assumptions of the forms to your own personal art. So you say, "You got to do irimi. However, you have to get all the way to the back -- not just up the arm a little or to the front shoulder because that crap does not work in real life and is not consistent with Aikido. Moreover, you again cannot dance all over the place, you must pressure your awareness of the situation by staying as engaged to the Line of Attack as much as possible."

This last point is important to drill two as the last point of drill two was to drill one. Meaning, in drill two you were told that if you were aware, you could deflect everything -- even sensing it before it was thrown. If you could not, it said something about how much awareness you actually had in drill one. It says you are probably just being hit in drill one -- which was not the point of that drill. In drill three, you are told, "If you are truly aware of what is happening, if you are truly sensitive to what is occurring, you will not only not be struck, but you will be able to sense when you can irimi in this exact way (i.e. all the way to the back with both hands on both hips of the attacker) and from this exact place (e.g. from on the Line of Attack). If you cannot, then most likely you were just blocking into drill two and not practicing the proper awareness." Thus, if you cannot perform irimi ashi under these conditions, you will go back to drill two and try not just to cover up but to become more attune to what is occurring, even sensing it before it happens.

What are you looking for in drill three then? You are looking for an arriving at the back of the attacker in natural and smooth way -- as if it almost happens by itself. You are looking for how you get there just in Kihon Waza, only now you are doing it under the most extreme of conditions (e.g. against a barrage of ballistic strikes, from on the line of attack).

http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/vids/shikaku.html

Anyways, I would love others to try these drills out and to let me know what they discover for themselves. It would be great if they could film it as well. Of course, everyone is welcome to join us in these drills as guests of our dojo here in Santa Barbara.

Thanks,
david

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

Hi All,

I was granted permission to share this private message I received yesterday - we both thought it relevant to the thread so we are posting it here as well.
dmv

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

OT, I know, but I am continually amazed when these videos make their way around the web, that absolutely no one there seems to be thinking about stepping in and stopping something that shouldn't be going on in the first place!
Would any of them feel the slightest twinge of guilt if one participant ends up dead from injuries sustained in a fight that could have been stopped?
Is it just me?

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

No, it's not just you. Seeing about twenty witnesses doing nothing to stop that altercation made me sick. :disgust:

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

If I walked up to a scene and that was happening, if one person was trying to escape, I might intervene. However, if I found out that the person trying to escape was taking the retribution for an offense he/she committed, I'd return to minding my own business.

Further, in that video, I didn't get the sense that the one going down was trying to escape...except to get out from in front of a strike--mutual combatants in my eyes. They're old enough to make that decision, I'll get a bag of pop-corn and enjoy the view.

I think to intervene between two people doing what they want in a non-threatening to others sort of way is a natural right...I've got a tendency to mind my own business in that situation.


Regarding the drills,

I'm not pro or con on those--I don't know either way. However, it sounds to me like comparing apples to oranges when comparing that stuff to "kihon waza."

The thoughts that come to mind are: Basic techniques are meant to teach certain things. Advanced techniques are meant to teach other things. Is a first kyu or sho-dan Aikidoka ready for such advanced things as what's in your drill? Is it possible or probable that by taking away from kata time to train in these drills you're reinforcing instinctual responses rather than developing Aikido responses?

I don't know any of the answers, but I just wanted to drop the reasons that I wouldn't use that style of training.

For me (from the perspective that sh'te is expected to respond with a technique--I didn't read your responses...I just dont' have the attention span:)), as soon as uke advanced and I didn't have a technique to deal with it, I'd go back to kata.

Again, not saying there's anything wrong with it. I'm just responding because you, apparently, were responding to something I said.

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

Well, I'm not David but... I guess just doing the drill mindlessly would lead to reinforcing instinctual (maybe I'd prefer to say habitual) responses, but then the whole point was to not do them mindlessly.

kvaak
Pauliina

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

This is exactly what I would have answered Pauliina - the whole point of the drill is drop what is habitual (i.e. that which is done regardless of the context).

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

A few common once that I noticed, for example, were laughing and treating the drill as a game, wincing, ducking, turning away, taking very wide and big steps back away from the attack...

This why I'm not sure I want to repeat the experiment in a class that I lead, I don't think I can offer that support. I might prefer to ask a few people and just train by ourselves at free practice time.

It's actually equally hard to be at both sides in this drill. It's hard as the attacker to see your partner getting stressed. We're such nice people all in the dojo...

I asked my husband to try this today, at home, actually. Now he wasn't willing to really hit me, but OTOH he has the advantage of not being shy to touch me anywhere. Tickling can be very startling. :eek: I could keep my gaze level but it felt "hard", it felt like I created a lot of mental space between us that I didn't like, especially with someone I love. The experience I had in the dojo was similar, and I wonder if it's possible to not have that mental pushing away (I dunno if that describes it well) but to be more open towards the attack, in a way. I didn't find it hard to keep calm and facing the attack (up to a certain level of intensity), but the difference between open and closed calm, so to say.

I've been having a summer holiday from aikido, this conversation is giving me an itch though. :p

kvaak
Pauliina

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

Quote: "A few common once that I noticed, for example, were laughing and treating the drill as a game, wincing, ducking, turning away, taking very wide and big steps back away from the attack."


This is very common. In my experience, it is done for many reasons but it always carries with it the same meaning: an attempt to disengage from the drill in effort to reduce the drills efficacy at revealing the small self and/or experiencing the small self in an open and communal setting. For example in regards to laughing (listing some possibilities among many), some people laugh to hide, or disguise, or to cover-up, and/or to "reduce" the disparity between their perceived self-image in regards to their martial skill and their actual skill level as it is revealed to them in being unable to stop someone from hitting them in as advantageous and as pristine a setting as the dojo. (Often these folks tend to talk about how the drill is unfair and/or how they would in reality do something different -- e.g. hit someone getting that close; enter; grapple; etc.) In this sense, laughing can be a habitual reaction to pride. Other people laugh because the violence (not matter how controlled) touches parts of them that they are not ready to confront or to reconcile and/or to expose so openly and/or obviously. Hence, you can also get the attacker laughing for a similar reason. (Of course, crying, and many other emotions, can also happen on both sides for this reason as well.) In this sense, laughing can be a habitual reaction to fear. Others start laughing because they have no idea what is going on, no idea why it is going on, and/or what they are supposed to do while it is going on. It is like they are flooded by a wave of absurdity and/or meaninglessness while they have burdened themselves with finding sense and meaning -- yet they themselves are at the center of that absurdity and/or meaninglessness. In this sense, laughing can be a habitual reaction to ignorance.

What is really interesting to note, aside from what is obviously being revealed at a personal level, is how so little of this stuff, or how none of this stuff, comes up in standard Kihon Waza training. Many of us are quite comfortable in Kihon Waza training -- we do without these demons day after day. There is little pressure to disengage from the training in an effort to reduce the effects of self-revelation. This is one reason why you can get folks that have no problem participating in even very intense Kihon Waza training only to act completely otherwise within this type of training environment. For the rest of us, folks that did have a lot of similar pressures within Kihon Waza training, even if initially we may have experienced some moments of anxiety, confusion, and uncertainty, whatever it was, it was nowhere near this other level of self-revelation/exposure.


Quote: "This why I'm not sure I want to repeat the experiment in a class that I lead, I don't think I can offer that support. I might prefer to ask a few people and just train by ourselves at free practice time."


I do no think that any one person can support such self-examination. This is my opinion. Really, it is a group effort -- one that demonstrates the reason why all viable systems of self-reflection always made good use of a community (i.e. like-minded individuals coming together for reasons of support and guidance). This does not mean that we do not benefit from a mentor, but it does mean that a mentor cannot be expected to support everything and every one in total. It might be a good idea to simply start out with a smaller group -- one from which you can learn the various ins and outs of such training -- things you can use to then go on to address the needs of larger groups of people. Not a bad idea at all.


Quote: "I asked my husband to try this today, at home, actually. Now he wasn't willing to really hit me, but OTOH he has the advantage of not being shy to touch me anywhere. Tickling can be very startling. I could keep my gaze level but it felt "hard", it felt like I created a lot of mental space between us that I didn't like, especially with someone I love. The experience I had in the dojo was similar, and I wonder if it's possible to not have that mental pushing away (I dunno if that describes it well) but to be more open towards the attack, in a way. I didn't find it hard to keep calm and facing the attack (up to a certain level of intensity), but the difference between open and closed calm, so to say."


This too is a very common reaction to the drills. I would tend to understand this "mental pushing away" in a manner similar to what was mentioned above -- even if we want to define it as a difference between open and closed calm. In my experience, it represents a kind of resistance to the present in which we are finding ourselves (for whatever reason). In addition, like what was mentioned above, it also says something about how we can train in Kihon Waza just fine without experiencing this resistance (which is really the source of all resistance -- in my opinion). It might be saying that we are non-resistant only under controlled and/or what some have called "fair weather" conditions. However, under more pressing matters, our habitual reaction to resist, to not accept, to not blend, to not harmonize with, to not "welcome the attack and the attacker" (as Osensei said), comes to the forefront. We are really talking about an amazing relationship between the mind and the body -- one we must uncover and reconcile before we go on to practice Aiki martially (i.e. in real life). The really interesting part is this: When you can still practice non-resistance against an attacker (e.g. not mentally pushing away your training partner in this type of drill), the level of intimacy is even greater than if you were practicing non-resistance under fair weather conditions in Kihon Waza with a "partner". For this reason, in actuality, should you come to reconcile this the source of all resistance, you would actually generate greater, closer, more intimate relationships with those others in your dojo. At least this has been my experience.

Anyways, because of your level of insight, your willingness to expose yourself to such pressures in your own training, and your candid honesty, your integrity of character, etc. -- you sound amazing to me and you have come to inspire me a great deal more in my own pursuits. For this, and for sharing in this discussion, I am very grateful.

Yours,
david

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

Yes! That describes my experience felt very accurately.

I do believe that if the resistance is there under more pressured conditions, that it's there in controlled conditions as well, only to a degree that is not easy to detect. So once you have identified the resistance, it should be possible to work on it in those conditions as well. Or I'd say it should be worked on!

If I take an example from my line of work, someone who strains their voice when they are singing on a stage will be straining their voice to some extent when they are speaking, and even when they are whispering. Actually in that case I'd start working on the whispering first -- which would be analogous to working on kihon waza? But of course there the difference is that this person already has the experience of using their voice under very pressured conditions.

Come to think of it my experience yesterday was similar to the two-on-one training I've done. It's not very "real" in the set-up, but I've had the same experience of getting stuck, wanting to blame my uke for not playing fair etc. That might be a way to work on this that is more familiar to our group. If we can do it in a way that people don't have too many "technical" "escapes".

That's encouraging. :)I can sort of ...smell it around the corner...

What I'm working on, in my personal life right now, is recognizing where and when I make decisions based on fear. Like replying privately rather than on the board for example. :) This discussion came at a good time. A great start for a new training season. :)

Boy it's hard to take compliments...thank you.
kvaak
Pauliina

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

Hi David,

How do you as a teacher deal with the psychological "stuff" that comes up during a drill?

thanks
Charles

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

David, this has been a very informative thread because of your openess to sharing. Thanks a bunch.

Jean, I know how much we in the yoshinkan and similar schools love kata (I do myself) but this is a case of a distinction between Waza and Kata. Kata will not likely help in the situation posed here. Waza, on the other hand, probably would.

Best,
Ron

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

Hi Charles,

I'd like to answer that question because I would like to reflect upon all that once again for my own training, however it's a pretty big topic and I wouldn't want to run off on some aspect of it if you were more interested in some other part. Do you think you could do me the favor of maybe being more specific and/or elaborate a bit more on the words "deal with"? Please/thanks.

Are you wondering how we support folks through such emotional content, such that they are not open to abuse (from others or from oneself)?

Are you wondering how we assist folks with coming to reconcile such self-revelations so that they can thereby improve in their practice of Aiki?

Are you wondering how teachers can be part of the process without coming to feel "trapped" in the "demons" of someone else?

Etc.?

david

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

Hi Ron,

Of course we are all benefiting from each other here. So I will return the "thank you" as well. :-)

dmv

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

Pauliina,

Yes, I agree. You are right. This is a more accurate description of what is actually occurring. The drills are really just amplifiers, allowing for an amplification of what is already present in and/or going on in Kihon Waza. Amplification or magnification, of course, makes things easier to sense, to become aware of, and thus easier to address. Once we experience these revelations, our insights into the subtleties involved become more keen and we are indeed more able to address them at less-amplified levels (such as in Kihon Waza). These drills reveal only what is already always there -- no more, no less. If we see something in the drill, we not only can see it in Kihon Waza, we see it everywhere else in our lives -- only we might not always have the eyes to see with (for one reason or another). Your example of the straining singing voice is a perfect analogy.

Thinking out loud: The other side of this, however, is to suggest that most Kihon Waza training might be seen as a de-amplifier of such things. Ouch! That is hard to say, but reason and (at least my own) experience seems to suggest that such a thing is actually quite probable. To be clear, this is not a denunciation and/or even a de-prioritizing of forms training. It is simply identifying what each type of training can and/or cannot do -- pointing out what is likely and not likely in each type of training for the sake of finding a way for both types of training to benefit each other more directly.

Again, thanks for sharing,
dmv

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

Watching the violence, as well as the apathy around it, also made me feel sick (but no, I didn't stop watching). I find the fact that as martial artists we can discuss it rationally kinda disturbing actually (I'm not having a go at anyone by this).

Jean bought up an interesting question:

Can two people (or nations) consent to violent confrontation, and does that make it ok, or is it just bad period?

On the notion of allowing someone to exact violent revenge, I disagree, it's still morally unjustifiable and against the rule of law. But yes, I am human and might feel different under the wrong circumstances.

Food for thought anyway...

Mark

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

David,

I am not ignoring your request for a dialog, just trying to crystallize my take on it. I feel that you are touching on a very poignant subject that deserves an adequate response.

Re: quickness & accuracy
 

Sure thing Charles, no problem, no worries. When you get a hold on something, just pass it my way and I'll do my best to reflect openly, hoping that can suffice you in your own pursuits and in your own further reflections.

take care,
david