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-   -   How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20223)

Gerardo Torres 09-02-2011 11:57 AM

Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?
 
Quote:

Ed Duffy wrote: (Post 291400)
Fair enough. What specific style, does this organization adhere to? Thanks!

Ed

I think Robin Boyd answered this question pretty well. I'll add in relation to this and the other thread you started:

I don't think anybody here ‘hates' Ki-Aikido. It might just be that what they see on video, or feel in person, is not very convincing. Tohei was tested (severely -- by aikido standards), and didn't need anything beyond his physical abilities to prove that his aikido ‘worked' (certainly didn't need to defend what he did with words).

Second, this type of thread doesn't help your case. You asked a ‘question', but it's really a loaded question designed to exalt a style while putting down another. Threads like this abound on Aikiweb: Iwama, Tomiki, Ki guys, etc., asking (loaded) questions but really only looking for validation of their own style. Then when you see them move or feel them you find there's nothing utterly superior there, mostly external stylistic differences, all sort of "eh" / "that's it?". Think about it, if any style had a stronghold on ki/kokyu skills, or their waza was truly superior and not just supported by their own ukemi paradigm, people would be flocking to it just like students flocked to Takeda or Ueshiba. But that's not happening isn't it? So being in Tohei's, Tomiki's or Shioda's lineage today guarantees… nothing. Just like being part of the Aikikai umbrella guarantees nothing (good or bad).

If you are really interested in ki/kokyu, as a fellow student I suggest you look past the whole organization/style thing and concentrate on players/exponents. Go out, feel people, both inside and outside your style and inside and outside aikido in general. Perhaps you'll find that some of those in the cutting edge of doing aikido with ki/kokyu are within the Aikikai umbrella. Perhaps you'll find that most aikido today regardless of ‘style' is lacking in some fundamentals. Perhaps a karate guy can pull the best kotegaeshi (with ki/kokyu) that you've felt! The whole ‘hate' accusation reeks of fanboy-ism (as in "y u hatin' on the PS3/Xbox?"). It's better to be pragmatic as that might lead you to the best training and learning.

Janet Rosen 09-02-2011 12:23 PM

Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?
 
Quote:

Gerardo Torres wrote: (Post 291669)
...being in Tohei's, Tomiki's or Shioda's lineage today guarantees… nothing. Just like being part of the Aikikai umbrella guarantees nothing (good or bad)...
If you are really interested in ki/kokyu, as a fellow student I suggest you look past the whole organization/style thing and concentrate on players/exponents. Go out, feel people, both inside and outside your style and inside and outside aikido in general.... It's better to be pragmatic as that might lead you to the best training and learning.

Great points!

ronin67 09-02-2011 08:39 PM

Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?
 
Quote:

Gerardo Torres wrote: (Post 291669)
I think Robin Boyd answered this question pretty well. I'll add in relation to this and the other thread you started:

I don't think anybody here ‘hates' Ki-Aikido. It might just be that what they see on video, or feel in person, is not very convincing. Tohei was tested (severely -- by aikido standards), and didn't need anything beyond his physical abilities to prove that his aikido ‘worked' (certainly didn't need to defend what he did with words).

Second, this type of thread doesn't help your case. You asked a ‘question', but it's really a loaded question designed to exalt a style while putting down another. Threads like this abound on Aikiweb: Iwama, Tomiki, Ki guys, etc., asking (loaded) questions but really only looking for validation of their own style. Then when you see them move or feel them you find there's nothing utterly superior there, mostly external stylistic differences, all sort of "eh" / "that's it?". Think about it, if any style had a stronghold on ki/kokyu skills, or their waza was truly superior and not just supported by their own ukemi paradigm, people would be flocking to it just like students flocked to Takeda or Ueshiba. But that's not happening isn't it? So being in Tohei's, Tomiki's or Shioda's lineage today guarantees… nothing. Just like being part of the Aikikai umbrella guarantees nothing (good or bad).

If you are really interested in ki/kokyu, as a fellow student I suggest you look past the whole organization/style thing and concentrate on players/exponents. Go out, feel people, both inside and outside your style and inside and outside aikido in general. Perhaps you'll find that some of those in the cutting edge of doing aikido with ki/kokyu are within the Aikikai umbrella. Perhaps you'll find that most aikido today regardless of ‘style' is lacking in some fundamentals. Perhaps a karate guy can pull the best kotegaeshi (with ki/kokyu) that you've felt! The whole ‘hate' accusation reeks of fanboy-ism (as in "y u hatin' on the PS3/Xbox?"). It's better to be pragmatic as that might lead you to the best training and learning.

Some great points sir. Again, my intent was not to say KI Aikido is better than other styles. I just was wondering how other Styles (Aikikai in General) further enhance and develop KI outside of waza. To me it seems with some of the aggressive/uncalled for responses (Szczepan Janczuk in particular/although doing a bit or research from his 900+ posts he has a history of making fun of KI Aikido and being a smart ass in general), to be a sensitive area for some members under the Aikikai umbrella. Can someone give me a honest answer on the topic I started? I'm always interested in learning different methods of developing KI to make my waza more effective. Is there anything that the Aikikai does different that can help me progress even more? That is all I'm asking.

May God bless.

Ed

Carsten Möllering 09-03-2011 03:52 AM

Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?
 
Quote:

Ed Duffy wrote: (Post 291705)
... I just was wondering how other Styles (Aikikai in General) further enhance and develop KI outside of waza. ...

"We" (Christian Tissier shihan / Endo Seishiro shihan; you will find examples of their/our aikido on youtube.) try to find "ki" and develop our "ki" and the understanding of it by practicing waza.

In very short terms:
If the posture of the body is "correct" ki will flow. If it is not good, there will be blockades an ki will not flow. So if you work on posture and movements you will get your ki flowing. If you get an understanding of what ist done this way and practice in this way, you will be able to "accumulat" and to concentrate your "ki". And you will learn to "direct" or "send" your ki willingly. Within your body. And you will be able to "extend" your ki.
Shorter again: Waza are ki exercises.

We seldom speak about "ki". Endo shihan more than Tissier shihan. But we "practice it".

In consequence (I think) our practice is much more "bodily" than I it seems to be in what I know as Ki-aikido.

Does this help a little bit?

Please be aware: This is not aikikai in general! This is just two teachers under this umbrella. And just my understanding of what they teach.

Tim Ruijs 09-03-2011 04:04 AM

Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?
 
Not really in the Aikikai myself anymore, but have been for 15 odd years or so.
I have never done specific techniques to enhance KI. Like Carsten says it is trained/polished within the techniques. This is I think where O Sensei and Tohei differed in opinion. Ueshiba said KI is integral part of Aikido, one should not (try to) separate it. Tohei's approach was to have some practise focused on KI development in order to improve your techniques.
My teacher always says there is nothing cosmic about Aikido, just practise, practise and practise, but off course properly.

I tend to interpret the question like:
how do Aikikai students learn about kino nagare?
how do Aikikai students learn about ma ai?
how do Aikikai students learn about kimusubi?
how do Aikikai students learn about shi sei?
....
There is no emphasis on either aspect, at least in my experience.

JohnDavis 09-04-2011 01:42 AM

Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?
 
[quote=Alex Megann;291339]Hi Ed,

My only time watching a ki aikido class (just one sample, so it is probably not representative) was disappointing - after all the ki exercises in the first part of the class I was expecting superior aikido, but what I did see was surprisingly scrappy and looked pretty ineffective. However, I have been in a couple of classes with Koretoshi Maruyama Sensei (ex-Ki Society), and found him deeply impressive, As I said, there is a lot of variation wherever you go.

You were at a class or a practice session and it sounds like there were a lot of beginners and low ranking students. If you want to see good demonstrations of Ki-Aikido, keep in contact with the Ki Society and watch for upcoming Taigi exhibitions. There you will see masterful aikido. Also any seminars conducted by Kashiwaya Koichi Sensei. He does a demonstration that will knock your tabi off. :)

Alex Megann 09-06-2011 04:43 AM

Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?
 
Quote:

John Davis wrote: (Post 291771)
You were at a class or a practice session and it sounds like there were a lot of beginners and low ranking students. If you want to see good demonstrations of Ki-Aikido, keep in contact with the Ki Society and watch for upcoming Taigi exhibitions. There you will see masterful aikido. Also any seminars conducted by Kashiwaya Koichi Sensei. He does a demonstration that will knock your tabi off. :)

Hi John,

I have looked up Kashiwaya Sensei as well as Yoshigasaki Sensei on YouTube, and I believe both are both highly respected within the Ki Aikido world.

I accept the obvious point that I need to encounter anyone on the tatami to get a full appreciation of what they do. However, although both appear very skilful, I have to echo Carsten Mollering's statement on another current thread: "it is fundamentally different from what I know as aikido".

Regards,

Alex

phitruong 09-06-2011 08:03 AM

Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?
 
Quote:

Ed Duffy wrote: (Post 291705)
I'm always interested in learning different methods of developing KI to make my waza more effective. Is there anything that the Aikikai does different that can help me progress even more? That is all I'm asking.

Ed

don't know. haven't figure out what folks defined as ki/chi/khi/.... in asia, those things usually associated with gas, as in, by product of bean and cabbage (kimchi - pickled chi/ki with hot chili peppers (ooohhhh yyaaaa) - worked pretty well too). so here i am scratching my head and wondering what in the god name are you western folks talking about developing!!??? you just eat the stuffs and wait for a few hours and voila! c'est la vie! :)

lbb 09-06-2011 08:18 AM

Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 291799)
don't know. haven't figure out what folks defined as ki/chi/khi/.... in asia, those things usually associated with gas, as in, by product of bean and cabbage (kimchi - pickled chi/ki with hot chili peppers (ooohhhh yyaaaa) - worked pretty well too). so here i am scratching my head and wondering what in the god name are you western folks talking about developing!!??? you just eat the stuffs and wait for a few hours and voila! c'est la vie! :)

By now you should have figured out that in the west, "ki" is the proverbial Emperor's Suit of Clothes. It is something I have and that you don't, something that makes me superior to you. It is proof by definition. Ki, and the concern over it, and the worshipful belief in it, and the hook-line-and-sinker swallowing of claims about it, probably do more harm to martial arts practice in the West than anything else. Mind you, there may be some thing called "ki" that is more than the end product of a bowl of beans...but if so, it's very much being overshadowed by the foolishness committed in its name.

DH 09-06-2011 09:30 AM

Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?
 
Quote:

Mary Malmros wrote: (Post 291801)
By now you should have figured out that in the west, "ki" is the proverbial Emperor's Suit of Clothes. It is something I have and that you don't, something that makes me superior to you. It is proof by definition. Ki, and the concern over it, and the worshipful belief in it, and the hook-line-and-sinker swallowing of claims about it, probably do more harm to martial arts practice in the West than anything else. Mind you, there may be some thing called "ki" that is more than the end product of a bowl of beans...but if so, it's very much being overshadowed by the foolishness committed in its name.

Hmm...Yet in Asian martial arts, it is rarely in dispute after hands on. Everyone knows then, who has it and who is full of it.
Why is that?
Ki was measured as strength and aiki as control. Is it a coincidence that the modern people who want to make it something spiritual have nothing worth seeing in person? They cannot deal with real stress, stop no one with decent power, and essentially have shamed the name of Ki power. Wherever, whenever, I hear "Ki" mentioned by Westerners... I expect to see and feel MAers with nothing to show for their beliefs. And I have never once been disappointed.

Quote:

....overshadowed by the foolishness committed in its name
It is the "gentle people" in aikido and Taiji who are committing an affront to the idea of ki, the effective use of ki (really aiki) and ruining the most effective model the Asian arts have.

Again, no one cares if these gentle folk (who can't really pull of anything effective) want to dress up and play Samurai and run around. Who cares. I only care when these gentle folks then overstep their bounds and demand to be counted as equally effective to those who have and know what ki and aiki is and moreover test themselves in stressful environments.
What happened to intellectual honesty?
I know plenty of people who do not do aikido for martial effectiveness and could care less. What's wrong with just stating that?


The ki wars demonstrated in the past (and it was echoed in the westerners training in Chinese arts) that those arguing for ki had nothing in person. The new guys do! And just like Ueshiba and Takeda and everyone else who could actually walk their talk, they are putting their asses on the line...in public to show just that.
It is very Asian
It has an established history in the arts
It is honorable
It is ballsy
It is irrefutable...in person where it counts.
Others remain all talk and are easily offended for being called on it. I say it was them who contributed to harming the reputation of aikido and worse aiki in aikido as well as the true power and quality of Taiji.

I don't really worry about the ner do wells in Aikido, as they and their efforts are going to be phased out over time. They will increasingly avoid those training aiki, for the simple fact that, face to face, there simply is nothing they can do to stop anyone who actually has aiki.
This new movement, of putting ki and aiki back into aikido, is the best thing that has ever happened to aikido in the modern era. It's drawing many people together to explore aiki, now in a truly effective way. As eleven Shihans have told me to my face. "This is what I joined aikido to find". I think it's worth celebrating.
Dan

Robert Cowham 09-06-2011 05:19 PM

Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?
 
I was interested when I first read the article:

http://www.guillaumeerard.com/en/aik...n-tissier.html

Quote:

van Bel: About natural principles, we often hear about Ki, the energy flow. You don't speak much about it though...

Christian Tissier: No I don't. The reason is that it is a very confusing notion. I have seen quite a bit in Aikido, I have met quite a few Senseis and I must say that the ones who speak of it the most are often the ones who have the poorest technique. Of course, this is not true for everybody but Ki is not tangible. Ki is within us. There is Ki everywhere, either we know how to use it or we don't. The fundamental issue with Ki is its flow. In terms of Aikido vocabulary, we have Ki and Kokyu, which is the vehicle for Ki. The translation of Kokyu is "breathing" but to be more accurate, in reality, Kokyu is the exchange between the two.

The bottom line is that if you practice with your stiff shoulders up to your ears, the Ki won't flow, any acupuncture practitioner will tell you. As a consequence, until the technique is perfect, there will be no Ki, no natural flow. To me, people who really have Ki don't feel it because everything happens naturally within them.

robin_jet_alt 09-06-2011 09:38 PM

Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?
 
Thanks for posting this. I really enjoyed reading this interview. It sounds like he is a very well grounded individual.

HL1978 09-07-2011 07:41 AM

Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?
 
Quote:

Robert Cowham wrote: (Post 291835)
I was interested when I first read the article:

http://www.guillaumeerard.com/en/aik...n-tissier.html

That quote is rather telling actually, but that particular instructor has been critiqued on here before.

Gerardo Torres 09-07-2011 01:54 PM

Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?
 
Quote:

Ed Duffy wrote: (Post 291705)
Some great points sir. Again, my intent was not to say KI Aikido is better than other styles. I just was wondering how other Styles (Aikikai in General) further enhance and develop KI outside of waza. To me it seems with some of the aggressive/uncalled for responses (Szczepan Janczuk in particular/although doing a bit or research from his 900+ posts he has a history of making fun of KI Aikido and being a smart ass in general), to be a sensitive area for some members under the Aikikai umbrella. Can someone give me a honest answer on the topic I started? I'm always interested in learning different methods of developing KI to make my waza more effective. Is there anything that the Aikikai does different that can help me progress even more? That is all I'm asking.

May God bless.

Ed

Ed,

I am sorry that I thought your thread was one of those "style vs. style" threads.

The Aikikai is too diverse and organization to give a definite answer to your question. Where you get your ki training (or not) is highly dependent on which shihan or shihan (plural) lead a particular Aikikai group. There's a lot of freedom and diversity within the Aikikai. Sometimes this freedom translates into an Aikikai group taking a dismissive stance against all things "ki" as "magical" or "fairy" non-sense stuff, and in the process become technique-oriented (the membership's reaction to anything "ki" makes it apparent where they belong -- it's just learned group behavior). Some groups within the Aikikai are more open and don't stop at anything when it comes to getting a particular skill-set, and it's common to see some of these groups converge and even seek outside (non-aikido) help if necessary. I'm more partial to the latter group kind, as I don't care where the information comes from as long as it's practical and compatible with Ueshiba's art. I think one should not to limit oneself to any organizational tenets -- "the 4 (or 5) principles", "it's all in the techniques", etc. One of my mottos is "use organizations, don't let them use me." :) ;)

So there you have it (as far as ki training in the Aikikai): find an Aikikai shihan or teacher who's into this sort of training (some are, some aren't), and better yet who's open to external resources and influence.

kewms 09-07-2011 03:55 PM

Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?
 
Quote:

Gerardo Torres wrote: (Post 291904)
So there you have it (as far as ki training in the Aikikai): find an Aikikai shihan or teacher who's into this sort of training (some are, some aren't), and better yet who's open to external resources and influence.

There are also vast differences within Aikikai in the amount of control a particular shihan exerts over the dojos under his umbrella, particularly with regard to external resources. Some frown on students even visiting Aikikai dojos linked to a different shihan, others have students who openly host non-Aikido events.

In this context, it's worth noting that most of Ueshiba Sensei's uchi deshi studied other arts, generally with his active encouragement.

Katherine

Rubber Man 10-14-2011 06:41 PM

Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?
 
Dear Ed,

ive trained for a fair few years with what i would describe as a harder style aikido, i love it its very fun energetic and good excersize.

as ive come to university ive trained with Alex who replied earlier who teaches under the aikikai 'umbrella' hehe his style is of the softer approach im of the opinion this style is of the essence of 'ki' as it relies on not using any muscle strength at all. there is never really a mention of ki but then again i dont really think there needs to be. its impossible to label something that varies so much person to person.

within aikido i think its important to think of ki not as some mystical power that enables you to hadouken the hell out of your opponant, but as the ability to control them whilst being 100 percent in control of yourself and not giving in the the temptation to combat their momentum.

yea i know this concept is something ive tried to get away without doing in the past but ive started to see the importance of this now im on the verge of shodan and hopfully one day ill get it! until then i guess its back to wondering how the hell does he do that!

p.s. im always a bit worried by the ki demonstrations showing people putting their hand a few inches from someones face as they run in and make them fall over, a drunk guy in a bar is probobally struggling to see you let alone the hand and pummel straight through you! ill keep working on my tencan :P

i must point out im not trying to claim im correct im merely sharing my thoughts on the matter and id love to discuss them with you guys.

yours in Aikido

Dan


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