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graham 03-02-2009 05:47 PM

Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
PLEASE don't see this thread as an attempt to revive any kind of "does aikido really work?" discussion. Nothing interests me less. Instead, I thought it would be useful to share what I personally love about Aikido...

My brother has trained in kick-boxing for quite a few years and loves UFC, etc. I, on the other hand, have studied aikido for about 3 years and despise UFC. He is particularly interested in the 'practicality' of martial arts and that got me thinking what one would want out of a contemporary martial art.

It seems to me that it might have to have 3 elements:

1) It teaches you how (not) to fight

Does the martial art actually develop us as moral beings, teaching us how to promote peace, as much as how to fight?

2) It makes you feel more relaxed, not more violent

Following on from point 1 above, does the martial art help you dispose of the stress and tension of the day, removing those unwanted knee-jerk resorts to violence?

3) It enables a gentle application of the martial art

Given that many contemporary scenes of violence involve friends and family, we may not want to always go all out. Does the martial art then allow the possibility of using the least possible resistance?

4) It is an effective form of self-defence

Much of 'self-defence' is covered in the earlier items, although some might still use the term in its more tradtioinal sense of physical defensive techniques to defend against physical attacks. Given that limited definition, does the martial art provide tools and techniques to defend against attack?

5) It is effective against multiple attackers

Does the martial art provide techniques for defending oneself against a group of attackers?

If these questions are relevant, it suggests to me that much of what we see in things like UFC is as far as one could get from likely contemporary scenes of violence. Conversely, aikido actually scores quite highly in terms of a practical contemporary martial art.

Any thoughts?

grondahl 03-03-2009 02:39 AM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
I think that your points to a large degree are things that you as a person value and seek rather than being descriptive of Aikido as a whole.

As for instance Demian Maia shows us, you can compete in the UFC and still value much of the same things that you do.

Hear Maias statements after his great performance against Chael Sonnen in the last UFC.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yc49loAFRxE

Buck 03-03-2009 06:56 AM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
Quote:

Graham Old wrote: (Post 225841)
PLEASE don't see this thread as an attempt to revive any kind of "does aikido really work?" discussion. Nothing interests me less. Instead, I thought it would be useful to share what I personally love about Aikido...

My brother has trained in kick-boxing for quite a few years and loves UFC, etc. I, on the other hand, have studied aikido for about 3 years and despise UFC. He is particularly interested in the 'practicality' of martial arts and that got me thinking what one would want out of a contemporary martial art.

It seems to me that it might have to have 3 elements:

1) It teaches you how (not) to fight

Does the martial art actually develop us as moral beings, teaching us how to promote peace, as much as how to fight?

No, that is a myth. See UFC. Morals are not part of the UFC- past the point of rules and a ref. They are not substancial enough to be considered taught. What they have is sportsmenship, rules, and a ref. Any morality within the fighter is learned from some place else.

Yes, if, morals are to be added to martial arts. They must be properly enforced, practiced, and modeled by the instructor. Then they must be supported and practiced by the dojo.
Quote:

2) It makes you feel more relaxed, not more violent

Following on from point 1 above, does the martial art help you dispose of the stress and tension of the day, removing those unwanted knee-jerk resorts to violence?
Myth, that is not the case. Such things are brought in from other sourses and studies such as Zen etc.
Quote:

3) It enables a gentle application of the martial art

Given that many contemporary scenes of violence involve friends and family, we may not want to always go all out. Does the martial art then allow the possibility of using the least possible resistance?
Myth. We might think so coming from morals and Zen etc. You don't known that stuff until you are threatened how you are going to act or react. It is true mental training for such situations helps, i.e. like what cops, etc. Those people get trained to react and handle the stress and the adrealine dump etc. because that will be face on the job. Something they deal with on daily basis, or expect to face-even that is dealt with on a daily basis. Most martial arts places pay lip service to it.

Quote:

4) It is an effective form of self-defence

Much of 'self-defence' is covered in the earlier items, although some might still use the term in its more tradtioinal sense of physical defensive techniques to defend against physical attacks. Given that limited definition, does the martial art provide tools and techniques to defend against attack?
That is up to the individual.

Quote:

5) It is effective against multiple attackers

Does the martial art provide techniques for defending oneself against a group of attackers?

If these questions are relevant, it suggests to me that much of what we see in things like UFC is as far as one could get from likely contemporary scenes of violence. Conversely, aikido actually scores quite highly in terms of a practical contemporary martial art.

Any thoughts?
Most martial arts are out-dated or like the UFC not designed from multi-attacks. That doesn't mean they can't be effective in some situation against some type of attackers. It means, if you are attacked by a street gang (who will be armed) who intends to kidnap you from money. The whole discussion of a group attack is mute. Unless your martial art teaches you how to use a high powered automatic weapon that teaches you how to handle the stress, the adrenaline dump, and all the other tactics, and strategies associated with that. You might have a chance if you are not taken by surprise and you just have to defend yourself. Meaning your not at home in bed in the middle of the night with your family.

UFC is an entertainment sport and has the same relevant stuff as Pro boxing, Pro wrestling, Pro Football, Pro Hockey. Btw, Hockey players are under rated fighters. Hockey is a martial art! :)


The real problem is people live in hypotheticals and fantasy worlds, be it UFC, Aikido, etc. That really is imo the issue. :)

mathewjgano 03-03-2009 09:35 AM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
Quote:

Graham Old wrote: (Post 225841)
PLEASE don't see this thread as an attempt to revive any kind of "does aikido really work?" discussion. Nothing interests me less. Instead, I thought it would be useful to share what I personally love about Aikido...

Of course what you seem to love about Aikido is it's effectiveness in these areas, so I'm not sure how this thread will avoid the "does it really work" discussion...if for no other reason than someone will want to inject a caveat and then probably want to discuss it. I think the examples you gave are good ones for how Aikido can be helpful, but I also think there are valid counterpoints that have to be included in a discussion about the virtues of these things too.

Quote:

If these questions are relevant, it suggests to me that much of what we see in things like UFC is as far as one could get from likely contemporary scenes of violence. Conversely, aikido actually scores quite highly in terms of a practical contemporary martial art.

Any thoughts?
Well, first off, I think many people would say Aikido is non-contemporary because it doesn't include firearms. Granted, firearms are less present in some places than others, but that's a part of my point: "contemporary" is a somewhat relative issue. Also, I agree UFC trains for a very specific scenario, but in many ways, it's not unlike the very specific scenarios we in Aikido practice. The question of how practical our training is comes in how the individual can translate those scenarios into organic/spontaneous interactions...and I think that is a case by case thing based more on individual people and schools than on whole arts.
Maybe another way to look at it is this: in the grand scheme of practical self-defense there is a lot of ground to cover. Some of us need to focus more on the list of skills you provided while some of us need to focus on something more like "ground and pound" (a gross simplification of MMA).
By two-bits at least.:)

graham 03-03-2009 11:42 AM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
Quote:

Peter Gröndahl wrote: (Post 225866)
I think that your points to a large degree are things that you as a person value and seek rather than being descriptive of Aikido as a whole.

Absolutely, Peter. That's mostly the point I was trying to make.

However, I'd say that they are more than descriptive of what I seek from Aikido and actually match what I personally have experienced.

graham 03-03-2009 11:48 AM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
Quote:

Philip Burgess wrote: (Post 225869)
No, that is a myth. See UFC. Morals are not part of the UFC- past the point of rules and a ref. They are not substancial enough to be considered taught. What they have is sportsmenship, rules, and a ref. Any morality within the fighter is learned from some place else.

Hi Philip,

I'm afraid that I'm at a real loss to see what you're actually responding to. What are you actually saying is a myth?

As I tried to make abundantly clear, I'm not interested in an Aikido vs. UFC discussion. That was simply the context for my post.

Quote:

Philip Burgess wrote: (Post 225869)
Myth, that is not the case. Such things are brought in from other sourses and studies such as Zen etc.

No, it's not a myth. I'm explaining what it is that I appreciate about aikido and how it matches what I personally would be looking for in a contemporary martial art. Your list may not be the same as mine, and your experience of aikido may not be the same as mine, but I fail to see how that make this a myth.

Quote:

Philip Burgess wrote: (Post 225869)
Most martial arts are out-dated or like the UFC not designed from multi-attacks.

That may well be true - though it begs the question 'outdated for what?' - but I'm not interested in most martial arts. This was simply a personal post about aikido and why I personally value it as a contemporary martial art.

graham 03-03-2009 11:55 AM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
Quote:

Matthew Gano wrote: (Post 225881)
Of course what you seem to love about Aikido is it's effectiveness in these areas, so I'm not sure how this thread will avoid the "does it really work" discussion...if for no other reason than someone will want to inject a caveat and then probably want to discuss it. I think the examples you gave are good ones for how Aikido can be helpful, but I also think there are valid counterpoints that have to be included in a discussion about the virtues of these things too.

Yes, I think you might be right. In that case, I would be the first to put my hands up and apologise, because I'd guess that I'm not the only one to be thoroughly bored by that discussion.

Reading it again, my post was really badly written. What I was trying to do was a) compile a list of the kinds of things I personally would look for in a contemporary martial art and b) compile a list of the things I love about aikido. I was then gonna be all smug and clever and show how the two lists were - from my perspective, at least - virtually identical.

Quote:

Maybe another way to look at it is this: in the grand scheme of practical self-defense there is a lot of ground to cover. Some of us need to focus more on the list of skills you provided while some of us need to focus on something more like "ground and pound" (a gross simplification of MMA).
Well said. Thanks.

Ketsan 03-03-2009 12:11 PM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
Quote:

Graham Old wrote: (Post 225841)
Any thoughts?

The UFC is full contact, they train with full contact. They go at each other full pelt. They also have an excellent safety record.

There's only one excuse for having an excellent saftey record in martial arts: you're training co-operatively.

Guilty Spark 03-03-2009 12:22 PM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
Quote:

Philip Burgess wrote: (Post 225869)
Most martial arts are out-dated or like the UFC not designed from multi-attacks.

I would bet on a UFC fighter with 6 years of fighting, against multiple attackers over, an aikidoa with 6 years of training any day.

lbb 03-03-2009 03:21 PM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
Quote:

Alex Lawrence wrote: (Post 225897)
The UFC is full contact, they train with full contact. They go at each other full pelt.

"Full contact", to me, means that no technique and no target is off limits. By that definition, UFC is not "full contact".

Kevin Leavitt 03-03-2009 04:01 PM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
How do you actually use a martial art to teach someone how NOT to fight?

What I am getting at is how do you take a methodology that is designed to impart many ways to teach someone to fight, and then say the endstate is to teach them how NOT to fight?

It seems to me that your endstate is to teach them how to fight. It might be a by product that the learn to judiciously apply that skill as might be required.

I am alway curious when I hear folks say "our goal is to teach people how not to fight." I mean at face value, that is what they probably come to you with already, the inabiity to fight!"

It may seem trival, but I see alot of stuff out there being passed off as "martial" that simply is not, and the phrase "we are teaching people how not to fight". is the caveat that seems to get used to excuse any real ability and gives permission to reduce it to an "allegory" or an "exercise".

Where do you think that line should be drawn?

Ketsan 03-03-2009 04:12 PM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
Quote:

Mary Malmros wrote: (Post 225909)
"Full contact", to me, means that no technique and no target is off limits. By that definition, UFC is not "full contact".

Within their techniques they're full contact, they go as hard as they can.

jennifer paige smith 03-03-2009 04:17 PM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
I am wont to call my aikido classes, "full contact origami".

Ketsan 03-03-2009 04:43 PM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
Quote:

Grant Wagar wrote: (Post 225898)
I would bet on a UFC fighter with 6 years of fighting, against multiple attackers over, an aikidoa with 6 years of training any day.

I'd favour the Aikidoka, if I can pick the Aikidoka. :D

lbb 03-03-2009 05:28 PM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
Quote:

Alex Lawrence wrote: (Post 225912)
Within their techniques they're full contact

And if your mother had two wheels she'd be a bicycle.

Buck 03-03-2009 06:29 PM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
Quote:

Grant Wagar wrote: (Post 225898)
I would bet on a UFC fighter with 6 years of fighting, against multiple attackers over, an aikidoa with 6 years of training any day.

LOL......

graham 03-03-2009 06:55 PM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
Hi Kevin,

Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote: (Post 225910)
How do you actually use a martial art to teach someone how NOT to fight?

I must be being a bit slow today. I don't really see what you're questionning? Are you arguing that Aikido doesn't teach one how not to fight? Or questioning my personal experience that it has done that? Or, perhaps, suggesting that when it does that it's no longer aikido?

All I know is that I work in enough inter-personal conflict situations (domestic violence, child welfare, etc.) and have studies martial arts long enough that I'm convinced that a decent contemporary martial art should contain elements of conflict resolution. (If it doesn't, it's just fighting.) It can do this explicitly or implicitly. If the latter, perhaps it's just in the way that the art transforms us as people when we study it.

Personally, my experience with aikido (and I'm an 'aiki-fairy' who is honoured to study ki aikido in the tradition of Sensei Ken Williams) says that it is both explicit and implicit.

Some words from Terry Dobson, which I hope I'm not misquoting, spring to mind:
'It is your responsibility to protect the person who is attacking you. This is extremely sophisticated, because it is difficult for your enemy to attack you when you are in a compassionate mode.'
Also:
'Fighting my brother is fighting myself; I am not going to punch myself. So, make a brother of your enemy.'
And, one of my favourites:
'Just because someone wants to have a conflict doesn't mean you have to agree to enter into it. Put the phone down and walk away. Get your centre. Come back and say, "Sorry to have kept you waiting." This drives people nuts, but it's legal.'
From what I can tell Dobson Sensei would not have considered such things to be simply a side-effect of studying Aikido. I believe he would have considered it aikido in practice.

As O Sensei put it:
''Aiki is not a technique to fight with or defeat the enemy. It is the way to reconcile the world and make human beings one family."

Buck 03-03-2009 07:23 PM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
Quote:

Graham Old wrote: (Post 225894)
Hi Philip,

I'm afraid that I'm at a real loss to see what you're actually responding to. What are you actually saying is a myth?

As I tried to make abundantly clear, I'm not interested in an Aikido vs. UFC discussion. That was simply the context for my post.

No, it's not a myth. I'm explaining what it is that I appreciate about aikido and how it matches what I personally would be looking for in a contemporary martial art. Your list may not be the same as mine, and your experience of aikido may not be the same as mine, but I fail to see how that make this a myth.

That may well be true - though it begs the question 'outdated for what?' - but I'm not interested in most martial arts. This was simply a personal post about aikido and why I personally value it as a contemporary martial art.

Have you ever counted the number of times Aikido is compared to UFC in threads?

Outdated is the right word. An example of a truly contemporary system, is combatives systems. Systems that deal with what and how criminals assault others. Criminals and their attacks get upgraded like other stuff. They work their stuff. They think about what they do and how to do it better, they improve upon it all the time. Their goal is to be successful and win too.

Many martial arts are just that arts. They are not about change, I mean, do you do Aikido in a living room, or a bar setting, or something like that. Do you practice in a parking lot after it rains or during the rain, etc. Do you practice in your street clothes. When you do perform a technique your not surprised, you know what to expect. No, you practice in a place that is the most least likely place you will ever be attacked barefoot. That place has a soft even dry floor. Your not ever surprised, in a white Japanese pajamas, if someone attacks you. Overall, yea, out dated.

To be fair when I say out dated, it doesn't mean MMA is any better with that stuff.

Ketsan 03-03-2009 07:39 PM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
Quote:

Mary Malmros wrote: (Post 225917)
And if your mother had two wheels she'd be a bicycle.

Full contact just describes the degree to which you apply your striking techniques. No contact: you make no contact. Light/semi contact: you tap them. Full contact: You hit them as hard as possible.
It's a measure of power used in technique rather than what kind of techniques are used.

Buck 03-03-2009 07:40 PM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
Contemporary art...what do you want from a contemporary? How do you identify what is a contemporary art and what it is to be?

Guilty Spark 03-03-2009 07:43 PM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote: (Post 225910)
How do you actually use a martial art to teach someone how NOT to fight?

I was about to ask the same thing.

Using martial arts to teach someone not to fight?
This sounds like some romantasized thing smeone came up with.
Like someone claiming to be a pacifist warrior.

Quote:

Philip Burgess wrote: (Post 225919)
LOL......

Are you agreeing or disagreeing Phil?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not tryng to bash Aikido it's my favorite martial art. I can't stand the UFC. I won't watch the fights and I can't stand all the T shirts hats stickers and UFC groupies. Guys talk about it and I go off and pick my nose somewhere.

Taking an average Aikido student who attends 2 to 3 classes a week and comparing them to a UFC fighter who trains 6 days a week and is probably in the 1% of their class (assuming they beat out a lot of compitition to get where they are) is to me like comparing your average soldier with a Navy Seal.

It's apples and oranges

One comment I see surface often is that one of Aikido's great things is that it trains you against multiple opponents.
I won't disagree, I'm certain saved my ass in a fight but the thing is if we turn around and assume another martial art is weaker because if it IE "They don't train UFC fighters against multiple opponents!" we, the Aikido community, end up looking like we're grasping at straws.

Quote:

'Just because someone wants to have a conflict doesn't mean you have to agree to enter into it. Put the phone down and walk away. Get your centre. Come back and say, "Sorry to have kept you waiting." This drives people nuts, but it's legal.'
This sounds like it might work very very well over the phone. Less so in a back ally somewhere.

Buck 03-03-2009 07:52 PM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
Quote:

Philip Burgess wrote: (Post 225922)
Your not ever surprised, in a white Japanese .

How could I forget the Hakama? Opps.

John Furgerson III 03-03-2009 08:30 PM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote: (Post 225910)

I am alway curious when I hear folks say "our goal is to teach people how not to fight."

Perhaps what is meant by this is teaching one to make sure a situation can be brought under control in a very fast, efficient way. If one has some type of training, a situation may not get out of hand. Control and harmony can be quickly restored.

If someone is good at Aikido for example, they may be able to end the fight before it really begins.

:)

Ketsan 03-03-2009 08:37 PM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
Quote:

Philip Burgess wrote: (Post 225922)
Have you ever counted the number of times Aikido is compared to UFC in threads?

Outdated is the right word. An example of a truly contemporary system, is combatives systems. Systems that deal with what and how criminals assault others. Criminals and their attacks get upgraded like other stuff. They work their stuff. They think about what they do and how to do it better, they improve upon it all the time. Their goal is to be successful and win too.

Many martial arts are just that arts. They are not about change, I mean, do you do Aikido in a living room, or a bar setting, or something like that. Do you practice in a parking lot after it rains or during the rain, etc. Do you practice in your street clothes. When you do perform a technique your not surprised, you know what to expect. No, you practice in a place that is the most least likely place you will ever be attacked barefoot. That place has a soft even dry floor. Your not ever surprised, in a white Japanese pajamas, if someone attacks you. Overall, yea, out dated.

To be fair when I say out dated, it doesn't mean MMA is any better with that stuff.

Sounds like an argument in favour of creating a kata for applying ikkyo against ten looters while sitting on the toilet with your trousers around your ankles after the roofs been blown off by a hurricane and the house is burning down around you. It could happen, are you ready for it? :D

Modern systems like you describe are not about change either, they are just new, like Takenouchi Ryu was new 500 years ago.
The point of older systems is not to create a system which is "If this happens, then do this" that's an impossibility.

The point is to create someone that doesn't have an adrenalin rush and doesn't get suprised. An adrenalin rush is a sign of an untrained mind, you've not trained to associate being attacked or being surprised with relaxation.

John Furgerson III 03-03-2009 08:42 PM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
Quote:

Grant Wagar wrote: (Post 225925)

Taking an average Aikido student who attends 2 to 3 classes a week and comparing them to a UFC fighter who trains 6 days a week and is probably in the 1% of their class (assuming they beat out a lot of compitition to get where they are) is to me like comparing your average soldier with a Navy Seal.

I'm not too familiar with the UFC but I have watched them in the past, but I think they, like many martial arts focus on technique and physical strength. There's a componant to Aikido that you may be forgetting....Ki.

I just read where an Aikido Sensei in Canada who weighs about 160 lbs, let a student try to pick him up while he was just standing. The student was I believe over 200 lbs and worked out, yet he was unable to life the 160 pound person.

Or the three students pushing against the Jo O Sensi was holding while at the same time another student behind him trying to pull him back. All four of these students were unable to move O Sensei. There's more to Aikido than technique and physical strength.

Energy and training to keep ones ego in control. From what I've seen of the UFC, ego isn't controlled...it's fed.

Buck 03-03-2009 08:45 PM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
Quote:

Grant Wagar wrote: (Post 225925)

Are you agreeing or disagreeing Phil?

One comment I see surface often is that one of Aikido's great things is that it trains you against multiple opponents.
I won't disagree, I'm certain saved my ass in a fight but the thing is if we turn around and assume another martial art is weaker because if it IE "They don't train UFC fighters against multiple opponents!" we, the Aikido community, end up looking like we're grasping at straws.

The LOL is because it struck my funny bone of what was said. I just LOL.


Fighting multiples. When we speak of a multiple attacker situation there is this over-romanticized thing put on it. I understand why there is this stress on Aikido being able to take on many attackers thing. It was to counter the UFC stuff against Aikido.

Aikido does teach to a multiple attack that is all about being attacked by sword wheeling Samurais.

I am waiting for that UFC fight where there is one fighter fighting against 2,3,...12 other UFC fighters at once! It may happen.

I don't think it is a bad thing for Aikido people to say that we train to fight against more than one attacker. It is a fact. It is a fact UFC doesn't and it is about the one on one, and that makes it worth watching. One fighter pitted against another. And age old thing to watch two men pitted against each other where only one man wins. It spans all cultures and countries and goes back to early man.

To be fair and more accurate UFC should be compared to Sumo, and not Aikido. I don't think there is any harm done to Aikido by saying Aikido trains for multiple attackers and UFC doesn't , at least for me, it is a fact.

Kevin Leavitt 03-03-2009 09:16 PM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
Graham,

Thanks for the response. I am not questioning your personal experience. It sounds like you have found good value and insights from your training. If it is working for you fine.

Certainly, each of us has our own experiences and we draw from them and find meaning in many ways and I am sure Aikido has served that purpose for you and for many.

Maybe it is semantics, but I do tend to be a little be very precise in my definition of martial art and like to make people think hard about and answer the question when the say "well, our martial art actually teaches people how not to fight."

Does it really do this, or and should it, or should we simply not reframe it into a politically correct phrase and say what it really is?

I prefer to call it what it really is, and let folks figure out how it might help them and what insights they might get out of it. It may be that it does help them not fight...but that is not what I am teaching them.

I think words must be chosen very carefully, especially when we are talking about something as serious as a martial art. We are teaching people how to do very bad things to other people. With that comes a tremendous responsibility that you accept. I think it is important that we are clear about it to ourselves and our students.

If we are doing anything other than that, then I really believe we are either not qualified to be teaching what we are teaching, (because we don't know better), or we are intentionally reframing it for some philosophical reason to get an agenda or dogma across that we are trying to carry on.

I think aikido in particular has suffered from this in many ways.

Budo is serious business and needs to be approached that way.

That is not to say that we cannot also teach ethics and moral responsibility and help people grow and discover the lessons that surround the marital art or budo, it is just that I think we need to be very honest about what it is that we are doing.

We are teaching people how to fight. It is that simple at the base level.

We are not teaching them how to avoid fights. We are not teaching them how to passively resolve conflict by moving off the line we are teaching them how to skillfully engage other people and render them unable to cause us harm through various applications and levels of force.

It is secondary that we actually probably end up avoiding fights because we develop these skills. Certainly a worthwile goal in my opinion.

We should not pretend that the various ki test and exercises like kokyu tanden ho are doing anything to help us avoid fights, they are exercises to help us learn how to use our selves in more skillful ways.

As far as conflict resolution goes...sure, all martial arts by their nature contain elements of how to resolve conflict. However, I think we do it in some very generic ways that deal with physical force or the application (or not thereof).

Conflict Resolution is something I am very, very interested in for both professional and philosophical reasons. (I am comtemplating gong to George Mason University to obtain my PhD in CR right now actually).

However, CR is a very broad subject area and much of it must be approach situationally. For example, a police officer, a social worker, and a soldier may all have different "rules of engagement" and a spectrum of escalation of force criteria that they must deal with.

I think martial arts can be very helpful in this area as it develops good skills (mental, physically, and spiritually) that can assist us with being properly prepared to deal with stressful situations that may potentially involve physical action. I think MA also provide us a wonderful framework mentally and emotionally to deal with stress at the work place whatever that may be too.

However, I don't believe it is our responsibility in martial arts to define for people what conflict resolution should be and how we should react. We don't need to be establishing dogma for folks in this area...it will get them killed possibly (Cognitive Dissonance, another discussion).

We simply need to present martial methodologies for what they are and allow them to discover their own meaning.

We are teaching them how to hurt and kill people. Okay, I will also be a little more "PC" and say "we are teaching them how to resolve conflict". I'd buy that too I suppose as long as we don't define or constrain it to a particular paradigm of application. (I hope this makes sense???)

If we give them enough skill, then they/we should develop more and more choices about how much force and when we use it (hopefully), but we should not define or limit what we teach to them out of deference to some philosophical/dogmatic belief!

On one end of the spectrum you have the "combat effective" model that says, "break the wrist and walk away". On the other end of the spectrum you have "move off the line, harmonize and lay them down gently".

Which one is right? I think it depends on the situation. I think we have a responsibility to learn and teach both extremes and everything in between.

That is why I have issue with the statement "We teach people how not to fight".

It assumes a dogma and at least in my mind, psychologically limits us to what we practice or consider appropriate. It is a dangerous mindset IMO.

I understand what Terry Dobson is saying, and I think that is a noble goal. It is mine at least!

However, I have also heard people that have studied with Terry say he also said alot of other colorful things!

O Sensei as well, also said things that would appear to contradict that. You have to be careful with the context in which these things were said.

Budo presents us an interesting paradox, and I really think it is important that we choose our words and thoughts carefully.

I hope this explains why I posed the question to generate discussion.

I have no issue with your goals, as they are mine as well!

Kevin Leavitt 03-03-2009 09:25 PM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
Quote:

John Furgerson III wrote: (Post 225929)
Perhaps what is meant by this is teaching one to make sure a situation can be brought under control in a very fast, efficient way. If one has some type of training, a situation may not get out of hand. Control and harmony can be quickly restored.

If someone is good at Aikido for example, they may be able to end the fight before it really begins.

:)

Hey John thanks.

Good response, but think about this....is there more to it than this? I mean if "fast and efficient" is all we are concerned about then we would just need to train the "just break the wrist and walk away" model. Fast and efficient does not address the issue entirely I think either as it is not concerned with Escalation or Levels of Force.

You'd also have to define the parameters of what is meant by "harmony" and "control".

I think harmony is when two parties walk away from the situation equally happy with the outcome. When I think of control...I am, for example only concerned with myself being happy with the outcome.

I think the situation dictates that outcome. I mean if I am a corrections officer, I am probably not too concerned with the inmate being "happy". But then again, I may be if in the long run it makes everyones life easier having a happy inmate!

Thanks again...this is a complicated topic to discuss for sure!

RonRagusa 03-04-2009 05:11 AM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
Quote:

Grant Wagar wrote: (Post 225925)

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
How do you actually use a martial art to teach someone how NOT to fight?

I was about to ask the same thing.

Using martial arts to teach someone not to fight?
This sounds like some romantasized thing smeone came up with.
Like someone claiming to be a pacifist warrior.

The goal of my training is to not fight --- with myself. Over the years Aikido training has led me to realize that I carry more enemies around with me in the form of old baggage than I'm ever likely to meet on the street. First and foremost Aikido provides me with a vehicle that enables me to be at peace with myself. If I'm at peace with myself I'm more likely to successfully integrate myself with my environment in a harmonious manner.

The assertion that Aikido is a martial art that teaches you how not to fight is incomplete... it omits the simple fact that the enemies we are learning how not to fight with are ourselves.

Ron

DonMagee 03-04-2009 05:47 AM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
Sigh....

Why does everyone talk like the UFC is a martial art? Do you go out and take UFC classes? Who was the founder of UFC style? How many years does it take to get a black belt in UFC?

The UFC is a proving ground for fighters who themselves are trained in systems of combat. Some are boxers, some are jiujitsu experts, some are even TKD guys. These guys train in systems that they feel will win fights, then they go out and well...how can I put this....try to win fights.

Personally, I do not want morality preached at my in martial art class. I had parents and priests for that. I want them to spend their time teaching me how to fight. If you haven't learned to be moral by now your probably going to be an asshole for life.

Buck 03-04-2009 06:20 AM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
I was asked about my myth comment in my first post.

Aikido doesn't heal the sick or raise the dead. I think there is a big mistake when people put things on Aikido that they shouldn't. Aikido isn't something we can turn it into anything we want it to be. That is where the myths come from. :)

Buck 03-04-2009 07:34 AM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
Quote:

Don Magee wrote: (Post 225944)
Sigh....
Personally, I do not want morality preached at my in martial art class. I had parents and priests for that. I want them to spend their time teaching me how to fight. If you haven't learned to be moral by now your probably going to be an asshole for life.

I agree though I do think that Aikido like many other martial arts of its time had a purpose to turn martial combat into martial art. That there is a morality, on an individual morality, but a social morality. In the 1900's in New York street fighting and street violence was a common part of society. It wasn't very civil times then in that city. Aikido and other martial arts of that time, like Judo etc. basically is geared to change that ruffian Japanese mentality that was affecting Japanese society from moving forward. All that is similar to the 1900s in New York and how a change there too had to be made for the sake of social progress. Aikido is also similar to the purpose for the birth of sports in the 1700's in this country; culturing young men in things that now have become good sportsmanship, fair play, etc. The west unlike Japan, we had many institutions and stuff to teach morality. We were long out of our feudal periods and already made that shift to a modern society. Japan was a johnny-come-latey in these area of things.

Aikido as a martial art deals with the Japanese individual in relation to their society. It really doesn't teach individual personal morals or is the mental therapy stuff across cultures. Here is the other thing, to teach any of that kind of stuff really is dependent on the moral character and personality of the Sensei. Honestly, Aikido doesn't prepare any Sensei to be in the role of therapists, moral teachers, spiritual leaders, etc. and that responsibility. It is just expected?!? Basically it is gained through the journey of training. That is one big assumption for those who are not Japanese.

Because of that stuff, Aikido is wide open to personal and individual interpretations like being discussed now. What is over looked is Aikido's societal mission to better society by to turning the ruffian into a gentlemen, and not into anything else- the general idea. Taking parts of the old moral Japanese codes and revising it to fit the purpose of Japan's new direction into (or fit into) the modern world. Really, I think any of that cant apply so much in today's western society.

If you take a cross section of those people who start Aikido, you will find that they are already gentle people. That the goal of Aikido is already achieved before they walk through the dojo doors, one in most cases. People who seek out Aikido in general well educated, intelligent, successful and contributing members of society. Who have already a general morality in place from other sources. The problem here is the goal of Aikido being already met before we actually start crates a void of sorts. Because of the strong obscure message of Aikido. So then because of that message not being understood clearly people feel that message needs to be fulfilled( even though it has been already). In that case, we find other ways of fulfilling that message resulting in the mix of other things which we then attribute to Aikido. The result of that is the personal experience stuff.

Guilty Spark 03-04-2009 09:01 AM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
Quote:

Don Magee wrote: (Post 225944)
Sigh....

Why does everyone talk like the UFC is a martial art? Do you go out and take UFC classes? Who was the founder of UFC style? How many years does it take to get a black belt in UFC?

The UFC is a proving ground for fighters who themselves are trained in systems of combat. Some are boxers, some are jiujitsu experts, some are even TKD guys. These guys train in systems that they feel will win fights, then they go out and well...how can I put this....try to win fights.

Personally, I do not want morality preached at my in martial art class. I had parents and priests for that. I want them to spend their time teaching me how to fight. If you haven't learned to be moral by now your probably going to be an asshole for life.

Great post Don.
UFC breeds two negitive aspects I find.
1. People who brag ad nauseum about how great all things UFC are. Often these people seem like in order for themselves to feel better about their own martial arts they need to cling onto X fighter who uses their style in UFC as a sort of validation all the while putting other people down.

2. Other people who's martial art isn't in UFC who feel the need to prove or point out ways that their martial art still works. Pointing this out isn't always a bad thing but I think it's unhealthy when someone feels the *need* to as a sort of justification or validation.

It all just seems like posturing to me.

With regard to your comment;

"Personally, I do not want morality preached at my in martial art class. I had parents and priests for that. "

I see where you're coming from but I also see some reasons *to* teach it in class.

Kids today lack a lot of social interaction and empathy for other people. Kids (and teenagers) interact more with halo_player56 while playing Ghost recon on XBox more than they do with their parents and kids up the road.
You said you had parents and teachers to teach you morality, that's awesome but how many other kids DON'T have that?

How many kids get shoved into a martial arts class 3 times a week so their parents can have a break from them? They get home, back on the computer.

I have a lot more respect for people in general because of Aikido. I know it's easy for people to get all weird about Budo and the way of the warrior but how I see it in the military they don't just teach you how to shoot, they teach you when to shoot and when not too.
Personally I see martial arts the same way. They teach you how to fight but they should also touch on force escalation. When to pull your sword out and when to put it away.
I just don't think kids today learn enough of that from their parents and schoolteachers. know what I mean?

Cyrijl 03-04-2009 09:21 AM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
I usually don't post here because Jun always has to warn me after I do ;), but I just can't help comment on the stereotypes of the orginal poster.

#1 I have met several UFC fighters. Kenny Florian, Ninja Rua, Joe Lauzon, Dan Henderson. They were all very nice and polite and for the most part soft spoken. If you ever have seen Ninja fight, he usually has a smile on his face, the same smile he has while he trained at my school. Dan was in the olympics. Joe has a college degree in computer science. Kennny grew up in one of the most affluent towns in massachusetts. I didn't grasp a bit of ego from any of them. When I took Aikido, that is all I got was ego. But I don't assume it is caused by Aikido, it is just the way those people are.

#2 I love the UFC. I love mixed martial arts. I have advanced degrees in philosophy from a top notch school and I don't wear TapOut or Affliction T-shirts. I just don't enjoy team sports. I don't drink beer or yell out in public, I avoid fights.

#3 I hate to compete. I entered my first tournament two weeks ago and came in first place. Nonetheless, it is not my thing. I did it to see if I could use my technique against a fully resisting opponent. I didn't even plan on competing until the day of. I didn't cut weight. I didn't train for the event. My first opponent outweighted me by about 15lbs, was pure muscle and tried very hard to stare me down. When I won, we shook hands, I bowed and I walked off the mat. Later on that day the guy and I talked quite a bit. No ego

#4 I don't do Muay Thai as much as I used to because I have never liked hitting people. Even with mouthguards and 12 oz gloves, I can't bring myself to really hit anyone. However, getting hit on a regular basis has gelped me stay out of fights. Much like the competition, knowing that I can take a punch and beat someone bigger means I don't have to worry about a bruised ego "out on the street". What I ran into in aikido (not from the instructors) seemed like a bunch of students whose confidence is largely inflated by the little stripes on their belt and not much more.

Again, I don't think it is an aikido thing or a ufc thing. It is about having good parents and common sense. It is easy to avoid fights. If you need aikido to help you avoid fights, you might need a psychologist not a martial art.

Guilty Spark 03-04-2009 10:13 AM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
Quote:

Joseph Connolly wrote: (Post 225957)
When I took Aikido, that is all I got was ego. But I don't assume it is caused by Aikido, it is just the way those people are.

Do you mind giving some examples?

jennifer paige smith 03-04-2009 10:30 AM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
Quote:

Ron Ragusa wrote: (Post 225943)
the enemies we are learning how not to fight with are ourselves.

Ron

Masaka Agatsu Katsu Hayahi:) .

Kevin Leavitt 03-04-2009 10:31 AM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
I think if we stick to teaching folks the very core elements of martial arts, and as instructors we make sure that we set a good example as a human being, and we look hard at the character of those we choose to teach...

Then, the whole morality/philosophical thing tends to take care of itself.

I think it is simply enough to focus on the core and the rest falls in place. An occasional discussion about personal responsibility or personal goals and happiness are all okay, but if we get dogmatic about what we are teaching...we are not doing the right things.

We should simply present our teachings without pretext of what we personally believe...that is "We don't teach THAT technique because it is not aikido or not ethical". Simply teach it, and let people make up their own mind and learn their own lessons.

I agree with Grant's assessment above.

Aikibu 03-04-2009 10:52 AM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
I finally met Gokor Chevichyan last Sunday and got a chance to shake his hand...Some of my friends jokingly egged me on to challenge him...and I did...I bet him I could last 30 seconds in the ring with him...LOL

I don't have a point with that little story other than I think Aikido and NHB/MMA can co-exist and learn from each other.

I guess part of this boards job is for some folks to dicuss over and over again thier "issues" with whatever Martial Art they practice...It used to bother me but I don't mind now....

The thread topic is a rhetorical question predicated on if you believe what you practice WORKS FOR YOU...If it does not then go find something else that does...

I know my Aikido works both as a Martial System and as a way to live my life. :)

William Hazen

Demetrio Cereijo 03-04-2009 11:12 AM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
Quote:

Jennifer Smith wrote: (Post 225961)
Masaka Agatsu Katsu Hayahi:) .

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...9&postcount=78 :D

mathewjgano 03-04-2009 11:26 AM

Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art
 
Quote:

Don Magee wrote: (Post 225944)
Sigh....

Why does everyone talk like the UFC is a martial art?

Because everyone uses short-hand descriptions all the time.

Quote:

If you haven't learned to be moral by now your probably going to be an asshole for life.
LOL! Oh THAT's why we shouldn't have some sense of morality in Aikido training! Fortunately about two minutes before you typed that I hit my head and saw the light, so there's hope for me yet. My buddy on the other hand is hopeless so don't bother trying to reach him, poor bastard.:D


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