more religious issues
i have been training a few months at a wonderful dojo run by two wonderful people. my difficulty is that i recently found out the dojo has been excluding people of a certain religion, based on certain parts of training that they can't do per religious order (bowing, training with the opposit gender, etc). in fact, they have managed to anger certain people of this religion ( which is very predoninate in this area) to the point they are calling for a boycott of the dojo by all "sypathizers against anti discrimination". the are doing this through local places of worship and giving the dojo a very bad name. my problem is that i don't know if any of what they say is even true and i don't know how to bring it up with the senseis to find out without causing offense. if it is true, i will leave the dojo because i don't believe in discrimination or supporting organizations that do. this is my choice and i see that others feel differently. what i want to now is how to find out if these wonderful senseis really are what is being said about them
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Re: more religious issues
Onegaishimasu, I see no harm to the senseis or to you by simply asking. You can ask to see them after class and talk in private.
In gassho, Mark |
Re: more religious issues
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Seems to me your group dont talk to each other.Is it a cultural problem??? |
Re: more religious issues
This wonderful dojo asks that people display a common sign of respect for partaking in some aspect of an Asian culture. This wonderful dojo asks people to train together regardless of gender. Seems to me like this wonderful dojo is not discriminating against anyone. The people who choose not to train in a manner that everybody else is training in should not be allowed to take away from the training experiences of others.
I frankly am a little sick and tired of people who want to be able to do exactly as they please regardless of the circumstances. I do not care of it is in the name of religion or any other reason for that matter. What do they say, "when in Rome..." If you are enjoying training in this wonderful dojo, enjoy the training. I am sure that the people who are "banned" would only take away from the wonderful atmosphere that you train in. Marc Abrams |
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In my dojo we bow to everyone. The teacher, the sempai, the students, bokken, pictures on walls...you name it we bow. It is almost like we do it to acknowledge each other...a very formal howdie i guess.
however, i visited a dojo last month where they bow three time and clapped and bowed again. That was too much for me. I just bowed... and no one really cared. So what I'm saying is that you shouldn't do something that makes you uncomfortable... no one will think you are weird if you opt out. Just don't be a buzz kill and let it effect everyone's training experience. |
Re: more religious issues
I'm with Marc Abrams here. The OP used the word "excluding" individuals, and if that is the case, then it is discrimination. On the other hand, if the dojo leaders insist on cross-gender training and other requirements that might antagonize a particular sect, that isn't discrimination in itself. The individual can make a choice for himself to put his religious convictions aside and train or choose not to train at that dojo.
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What Marc said. Somebody once said "a dojo ain't a democracy" and this ol' leftie anarchist actually doesn't have a problem with that.
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I have to add to the chorus. I read the original poster saying...
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Ouch, I think I pulled a frontal lobe... Seriously, I can be very flexible about a lot of things. However, sometimes the issue of entitlement can really be a hot button issue for me. Are these same groups boycotting all the local businesses, restaurants, social clubs, etc. that allow genders to interact? I sure hope the movie theaters keep women separate too. What about the public schools -- can't have the women in the same classes with men -- think of the chaos that could ensue! And surely there are no female teachers teaching male students. Oh, and the public pools... And... And... No. They cannot train in that dojo because their religion prevents them. No one has to alter their work, training, or beliefs to accommodate yours or anyone else's. It's their problem. No one else. If someone wants to start a training class for those who have particular requirements and restrictions, more power to them. And I'd support them 110% in doing it however they want to. And I would respect them enough *not* to insist on sitting in on the women's classes. And I would respect them enough to try to act properly in their context. I have friends from a variety of religious backgrounds. When I walk into their house I do my level best to abide by their rules, their customs and their habits. I'm sure they also compromise many things and "overlook" many of my bad habits and obviously poor upbringing. But I still do my level best to respect their right in *their own freaking house* to live how they see fit. Step through the door to someone else's house and you need to simply... Deal with it. Or don't go in. Doors are cool that way -- they open allowing you to move in *both* directions. Or not go in at all. And heck, even if the sensei is being unreasonable and I found that I wouldn't agree with him or her, well, it is still their place. I won't protest -- I will just go somewhere else. Come to my house and want to play with my toys? Well, guess what? My house, my toys, my rules. In my personal religion I am required to sacrifice a live, baby seal in someone else's living room. Gonna invite me in? |
Re: more religious issues
Aikido the art of harmony is not just a title we can spout whenever we like it. Either you subscribe fully to it or you don't in which case you're probably doing a quasi aiki jutsu martial art.
However being harmonious does not imply bow down to every tom, dick and harry's demand. Instead it revolves around the natural law and a major part of that law requires respect as its back bone. That's why Rei is 1 of the 7 characters intrinsic in Budo. Rei is sincere respect and can only be given willingly. It can't be demanded nor enforced. However, rei can also be given in many forms. A slight bow does not diminish the heart's true intention or respect in any way at all. Nor does a head to the floor bow actually signifies true respect. Form outside, ignore. Its the intention that counts. The sensei may have to appear generalistic in enforcement in what would be something that is difficult for him to do. This is to maintain order. Or he could genuinely feel disincline to blend with the wishes of the particular group. Either way, his intent will translate to his waza. You can sense true harmonious feeling in his waza or not. If you can feel that, then stay on because whatever the outward reason those particular group is excluded, the sensei bears no ill will. If you don't feel it, then maybe you can explore other options. |
Re: more religious issues
Hi all,
I think if the "excluded" people started already a campaign against the dojo via their temples, that is pretty strong. They are not excluded because of being strict Moslem/ Jew/ evangelical Christian (or whoever refuses training with the opposite sex) but because of upsetting aikido training rules, which is a strictly technical issue. In my dojo we once had some boys refusing to train with the girls. Not because they were religious, just because they had the age when girls are absolutely unworthy, ridiculous, feeble creatures whom a REAL BOY doesn't want to mix with. Obviously they had to leave the tatami when showing this attitude. So if they are sent away but other boys refusing girls for religious reasons are admitted, who would be discriminated? The non-religious-anti-girl boys, or the girls? I think if a dojo is pretty straightforward postulating that everyone trains with whoever bows to him, then no exceptions should be made, be it for personal dislike reasons, religious reasons, technical reasons (X is such a bad uke!) etc. But on the other hand, as already someone wrote, no one prevents people who are uncomfortable to train with the opposite sex to set up a strictly purdah dojo. In Turkey, most Turkish baths are gender separated, everyone knows, and it's a problem for no one. But on the other hand, no one would issue a fatwa against a Turkish bath were mixed bathing hours are allowed - but conservative or very religious people just wouldn't go there. Best regards, Eva (who would hate NOT to train with men and would do my best not to be confined to an all-women.dojo....although it might be fun to try that once or twice) |
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I agree with you Joe! Aikido is a Japanes art that has spread around the globe to different cultures. We have to seperate the 'art' from the culture. I hope to have my own dojo one day, and when I do, this will not be an issue. I would gladly respect anyone's religious restrictions. That doesn't mean they get to train the way they want. It only means that they don't have to do anything they don't want to do if it goes against their religion. It's not a hard thing to do and it really is no big deal. |
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While I do not fully disagree with all the statements supporting the Sensei's, I think most here are looking at the picture from a very specific point of view.
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Their limitations come from God, yours are man made cultural issues. They can not make the slightest amendment or change - that wold hurt their beliefs. You must accommodate them. Quote:
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(be it sex segregation, working on Sabeth, or selling non-kosher food). They will demand to get all the social services their way (including public-beaches that are men only or women only with ugly fences blocking the view of anyone in them)... Quote:
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The level that is acceptable has to be set by the Sensei, and should not harm anyone else. My Sensei refuses to accept student who will not bow to others, but accept those who will not bow to the Shomen. He accepted in the past few students who did not train with women, but they were alway the minority, and the rule was no woman would be left anytime not-training because one of them refuses to train with her (in such a case, the partner of that one trained with the woman and he was left partner less). Quote:
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Amir { who would hate NOT to train with men and would do my best not to be confined to an all-men dojo, nor thinks it is fun. And who actually believe that as a man, training with women is important to my own technical advancing in doing practical Aikido. And who is willing to make minor accommodations, but only minor and not as an opening to bigger changes} |
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Re: more religious issues
M.Kanai sensei wrote:
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If one is willing to train with others who have phsyical limitations (i.e. Janet's experience with an autistic student), then one should also be a little open to accomodating cultural/religious limitations. I would expect the actual dojo dynamics of having an autistic student in the class to be far more "disruptive" than having someone who feels uncomortable bowing or practicing with the opposite sex. Of course, the *reasonable* accomodation rule applies - a small all male dojo would have a hard time accomodating a woman who wished to train only with other women. That said - isn't this dejavu all over again? Here is another ultimately fruitless thread on the exact same topic.... http://aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10006 |
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You are right to want to find out the truth, and you are right to ask your instructors what their policy is on admission to the dojo. However, there is a difference between active discrimination (eg The instructors are saying no Jews or Muslims are allowed to train here) and allowing people to self-discriminate (eg The instructors are saying that everyone must bow and train with both genders, and if you're not prepared to acept that then maybe training here is not for you, so you yourself then decide not to train there). Until you know which one applies, then you can't make a decision, so I'd suggest that you ask your instructors and don't worry about causing offence - their admissions policy is obviously public so why should you worry? If you subsequently decide to leave this dojo, then you can write them a letter explaining why - you don't have to get into a debate with them! Ruth |
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BTW, I understand that you are faithfully representing a certain point of view here, and that it is not necessarily one you subscribe to yourself. My point is that no matter how fervently a religious person may believe that their directive from God takes precedence over any civil laws, "man made cultural issues" or other codes of any kind, fervent belief does not create reality, and "because my holy book says so" doesn't mean that people have to do it your way. |
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But I cannot reconcile that with including people who would refuse to train w/ me on the basis of a set of beliefs that are fundamentally at odds with our dojo's culture of inclusion. I truly think they would be better off creating their own gender-separate dojo, which I would be free to not join. |
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The Japanese have a saying that I see many dojos and non-Japanese follow in the dojo. The saying goes something like if a nail is sticking up, you hammer it down. In Sikhism, I believe in loose terms, the removal of the head dress is forbidden. If a Sikh came into my dojo, I would ask him to remove his head dress or not train. We have had Christians who thought bowing was a pagan act, and refused to do it. We asked them to leave. Now when people come to the dojo we screen them and have a prejudice against those who we know are not willing to accept or follow our practices. We dictate everything involved in Aikido from a uniform to behavior, that is pretty much the norm. Aikido isn't like many religions that tell you what to believe and if you don't conform stone you, but there is pressure to follow the group and conform to behaviors and practices, much like a sports team. We don't tell you what to believe and if you don't you will go to hell. We are discriminatory along the lines of a sports team, the military and alike. This angers people and we are called out on it. In our defense, there is no law or rule, and it is in fact an accepted practice among martial arts to be discriminatory and selective. With all that said, this knowledge may be helpful to you understanding martial arts and Aikido. I suggest find a dojo that is more accommodating to the practices of others. Please keep in mind that isn't the norm. But it is a Japanese martial art, of O'Sensei and that is what attracts millions of people to it. Unless you don't live in a free country, it is a right for people to discriminate in this sense, like we have private country clubs, not everyone gets into the sheik night clubs. There are women only gyms, etc. Now if this Aikido dojo was a place of employment, and not offering a cultural experience then that would be a different story. Please don't misunderstand I just think understanding this maybe helpful to you and ease your discontent. |
Re: more religious issues
Oh this as well, there are many Aikido dojos who accept people of different views politically, religiously, gender and culturally. But in general ask people to follow the dojo practices and cultural. You may run into some who will train with you but they hide the fact they don't like your race, religion, or politics. You may run into those who are more honest and open and tell you upfront why they will not train with you. There are other people who have no reservations. Be aware of the fallacy that Aikido is and should be some kind of perfect utopia where one lives in peace and harmony. The fact is we are all people and by nature, discriminatory.
No matter how hard we present other wise, we are discriminatory. Be it the Aikido dojo rejecting based on their beliefs and criteria, or the student who is upset at those dojos and believes there should not be any discrimination against others. The best thing to do, again, is to find a place that fits your criteria. in that way you will be at peace. My advice is to do what many do, and that is find a place where you fit in best with people like you. |
Re: more religious issues
Dear Anonymous:
In your original post you raised two issues. You stated that you wanted to know if your instructors were truly discriminatory and said that you didn't want to belong to, or support an organization that is discriminatory. That's commendable and I salute you for that. The solution is simple; open your eyes and ears and see for yourself. Do you see any specific actions that disadvantage or harm any particular group? By that I mean specifically, does your dojo have a policy or practice of refusing to accept students because of their race, their religion, their sex, their sexual orientation, or any other human quality? Or do they set rules and practices that some may not wish to abide by? If it is the former, then your school is probably discriminatory. If it is the latter, then it is not. That part of the equation seems easy to me. The second issue is more troubling to me. If the school doesn't exclude others on the basis of their religious beliefs, then on what basis does this group chose to attack this school? What then is the problem? Granted, I'm just an Ugly American and don't fully understand the nuances of other cultures around the world, but I do show respect and courtesy to those whose beliefs I don't share. I don't have any problem with the leaders of the "local places of worship" telling their flock that the practices of the dojo are antithetical to their beliefs and they should not train there. That seems to be the role of religious leaders of any faith. Maybe I read more into your original post, but I am concerned at the level of anger suggested. Religious or cultural zealots of any stripe worry me, and worry me greatly. |
Re: more religious issues
I think this topic has been discussed before, so I don't know how much of my response will simply be a repeat of previous posts.
Dojo are places of training and sensei is responsible for maintaining the safety and sanctity of the environment so students feel comfortable training. One of those decisions may involve the alignment of goals, values, and expectations of the students within the dojo. I would not argue this alignment is discrimination but it creates an inclusive demographic of the dojo members. I think this type of alignment should be done openly and with consistency. The student is then empowered to make a decision to train in the dojo within a set of "rules" that are public and enforceable. I think each dojo faces smaller decisions which establish the line in the sand for larger issues, and those decisions should remain variable to fit the conditions, location, and culture in which the dojo is situated. 1. For those sensei who make poor decisions about what their dojo should represent, their dojo will fail. Discerning students who do not align with that instructor's goals and expectations will choose not to attend class. 2. Training is conditional gift. If a student is unwilling to accept the conditions of the gift they should not expect to receive the gift. Taken to another level, why would New York Mets fans attend a Yankees game? Why would a republican attend the Democratic National Convention? Why would a math major spend her time studying English? We spend our time aligning ourselves with activities, friends, and lifestyle to match our beliefs. Why would I walk into a dojo that does not share those beliefs, then demand that they change to accommodate me? The friction will be larger than just what you see on the mat... |
Re: more religious issues
On a side note (if I'm not wrong and memory serves)... the current president or advisor to Aikikai Indonesia was a direct student of Osensei. He is also a muslim. And he didn't bow to shomen. Osensei did not berate him or throw him out for his 'unbudolike' behaviour...
Say what you will about japanese culture or beliefs or whatever, Osensei understood religion and faith. He did not discriminate against it. Men... and their zeal... |
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Thanks for posting that! |
Re: more religious issues
I don't believe altering your own, widely accepted and appreciated traditions for the sake of not offending one or two people. I'm all for spreading the art, but there is a point where it is ridiculous. If it is against your beliefs to touch women, maybe Aikido should also be against your beliefs...because since it's formation women have been encouraged to train with men and vise versa.
If you don't want to bow, fine, don't do anything that makes you uncomfortable. No one will be offended if you don't bow. But not wanting to be on the same mat with another person based on gender, race or orientation...too far, and very un-Aiki. Don't do anything that makes you uncomfortable, including stepping on a mat with women. You know there are women there, you can choose not to step out with them... like you can choose not to bow. You walk into a dojo fully aware of the rules! I'd be a little peed off if a 7th kyu walked in the door and wanted to change my dojo's training rules just to suit them. That breaches the amount tax that a student has the right to demand of their school. |
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