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-   -   Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion) (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11751)

xuzen 03-14-2007 03:27 AM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Quote:

Larry Camejo wrote: (Post 171861)
Boon,

You find the best vids. Dr. Loi's waza is just sooo crisp in both the kata and randori parts of the Shodothug clips. Makes one feel all warm and fuzzy inside.:D I could just imagine what would happen if that Uke went all out with those tanto strikes.

Gambatte.
LC:ai::ki:

Thanks Larry for your praise. I accept graciously. You know.... finding aikido video with alive RAN-DORI is like finding a needle in a haysack. If you do find one, one should keep it for posterity and future reference.

Err.. one more thing, is Dr Loi is a woman right. That makes her a Shodothugress?

OSSU!
Boon.

SeiserL 03-14-2007 06:33 AM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 171853)
Lynn, you are whipping out these one-liners like a Chinese fortune cookie factory.

Actually, that would be a Fillipinio cookie factory.

One of the problems I see in the tradition tanto attacks is that they IMHO were designed for the knife as a secondary weapon aiming at targets that didn't have armor.

A while back we did an article for Black Belt on Aikido against the FMA five angles of attack. Sensei used one of my live blades.

I tend to use my one-liners as a gudeline for training. If prepared physically and mentally for the worst, you can probably handle what comes.

Kevin Leavitt 03-14-2007 10:43 AM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Lynn I like your one liners. I always see the wisdom in them.

Interesting point to about a secondary weapon. That is how I practice with knifes..as a secondary weapon.

garry cantrell 03-14-2007 04:19 PM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
OK, time for my two cents. Great discussion about proper training and dealing with trained knife fighters and types of attacks and the like - but here's another perspective. My one and only (thank goodness) experience with a knife attack was with a guy who, as far as I could tell, had no training and gave no indication that he wanted to hurt me (or even that he found me mildly irritating) prior to trying to shove a butcher knife through my stomach. Geez, that was years ago. I lost a quarter sized hunk of skin off the end of my elbow. It was very fast, from very close range, and very unexpected. My response was clearly Aikido based (and expletive enhanced, if I remember correctly) but wouldn't have been confused with traditional tanto take away techniques. There's a point here somewhere. Maybe it's just that it's rare to be able to accurately predict real life applications. You train hard, as best you can, and enjoy the training.

Kevin Leavitt 03-14-2007 04:34 PM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Yes I agree with your assessment on training Garry. thanks for sharing that story!

Tony Wagstaffe 03-14-2007 05:17 PM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Quote:

Lynn Seiser wrote: (Post 167094)
I trained in FMA/JKD with the late Ted Lucaylucay.

IMHO, a trained knife fighter never attacks, only ambushes.

From an Aikido perspective, work on footwork to get off the line/angle of attack and controlling the weapon while taking balance.

Cross-training is about the only way for this to make sense.

I would agree totally on that one Lynn!:straightf

KIT 03-14-2007 09:18 PM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Never mind, found out where they went....

SeiserL 03-15-2007 06:55 AM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Quote:

Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: (Post 172029)
I would agree totally on that one Lynn!

Okay, that's one. ;-)

George S. Ledyard 03-15-2007 07:51 AM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Quote:

Lynn Seiser wrote: (Post 171891)
Actually, that would be a Fillipinio cookie factory.

One of the problems I see in the tradition tanto attacks is that they IMHO were designed for the knife as a secondary weapon aiming at targets that didn't have armor.

A while back we did an article for Black Belt on Aikido against the FMA five angles of attack. Sensei used one of my live blades.

I tend to use my one-liners as a guideline for training. If prepared physically and mentally for the worst, you can probably handle what comes.

Frankly, from a practical standpoint, the one place where the knife makes sense is as part of your weapons retention system. If you carry a firearm, you should have a tactical folder available that you carry on the opposite side from the gun. If you get in a grappling situation on the ground you try to get the gun underneath you so the assailant can't get at it. It's the off hand which accesses the knife. If you get jumped from behind, this is one of the few things that will work fast enough to save you from a choke. It allows you to still use your strong side hand to protect the firearm while the off side hand accesses the knife and goes to work on the choke. I trained a bit with Eric Remmen, a Hwang Rwang Do fellow, he actually carried three folders, one on each side low and one high in the neck of his vest. There was no grappling hold you could put him in where he could not access one of the three knifes. That's where a knife really makes sense, I think.

CitoMaramba 03-15-2007 08:56 AM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Quote:

Lynn Seiser wrote: (Post 171891)
Actually, that would be a Fillipinio cookie factory.
.

Filipino cookies! Uraro (arrowroot) cookies immediately come to mind :)

Dangayan Singkaw incorporates an art called asut kampilan, the technique of drawing and cutting with the Filipino short sword.
It is similar to iaido / iaijutsu.

divinecedar 03-27-2007 05:22 PM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
I understand that this is not pure Aikido, but it is non-cooperative tanto-dori. It is the 1st time I attempted it, but here you have it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiG6mIu15EE

George S. Ledyard 03-27-2007 08:08 PM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Quote:

Cody Bruce wrote: (Post 173697)
I understand that this is not pure Aikido, but it is non-cooperative tanto-dori. It is the 1st time I attempted it, but here you have it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiG6mIu15EE

I am not trying to be disrespectful of your efforts here but:
a) the attacker moves as if he is scared of you; if I'd had that knife I would have come at you like a cuisinart

b) put a choke on a guy with a knife before you have disarmed him and he'll open your arm up right along it's length and then move to your body

c) drop a guy like you did and stay in range he'll cut your femoral artery or take out all your tendons

d) anyone who knows what he is doing will strike with the off hand, you aren't paying any attention to that opening and your partner isn't using it

If a guy has a knife and you cannot escape, then you go in without any hesitation, cover anything that would kill you if he hit it, and get in and tie him up, then proceed to render him unconscious. If he stabs you or cuts you, he only gets one. Dancing around as your are doing will result in getting so many cuts he can render you totally ineffective in short order.

Knife stuff is all about "irimi" in the end. You need to have your mind "inside" his attack and then put your body there. He only gets one shot to finish you.

divinecedar 03-27-2007 08:22 PM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Well, I appreciate the insight. I've never tried to do this before. What you are saying then is that instead of trying to evade the attack one should directly enter into it? Goes along the lines of a samurai not fearing death, am I correct? I am offended in no way and sincerely appreciate your comments.

Chuck Clark 03-27-2007 10:36 PM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
George, I was moved to post similar points for this fellow and had to go to the dojo. If someone that was intent to cut and even half-way good with a knife was involved in that action it wouldn't have lasted long.

Please find someone that can help you learn good stuff or while you're getting some exercise you'll get into habits that may have you buying some rural real estate.

Sincerely,

L. Camejo 03-27-2007 11:32 PM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
I have to agree with Chuck and George above.

The only thing I can add is that by stepping back in the case of a knife attack and not committing to a solid offline entry (irimi) that can control the weapon hand/side and minimize its effectiveness you are inviting a follow-up or combination of stabs/slashes that will render you useless to defend yourself in short order.

I'd like to reiterate these points George made, they are ery important:
Quote:

b) put a choke on a guy with a knife before you have disarmed him and he'll open your arm up right along it's length and then move to your body

c) drop a guy like you did and stay in range he'll cut your femoral artery or take out all your tendons
Finally at the times where you did grip the knife arm and failed to immediately follow up with a strike or technique you could have also gotten your wrist and inner arm cut repeatedly if the knife holder utilised turning motions of his hand or body while dragging the blade across your wrist/inner arm to break your grip.

Just my 2 cents. Resistance Tantodori isn't easy under any circumstance imho but one can develop "best practices" that minimize the dangers.

LC:ai::ki:

divinecedar 03-27-2007 11:54 PM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
I'm going to start practicing in this fashion. This session was simply to really see what it was like. I've learned quite a bit on here and will apply it as soon as possible.

George S. Ledyard 03-28-2007 01:50 AM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Quote:

Cody Bruce wrote: (Post 173704)
Well, I appreciate the insight. I've never tried to do this before. What you are saying then is that instead of trying to evade the attack one should directly enter into it? Goes along the lines of a samurai not fearing death, am I correct? I am offended in no way and sincerely appreciate your comments.

Sort of... Certainly, if you are in avoidance mode and thinking defensively, the guy with the knife has such a distinct advantage that you'd only get out of it by an act of God.

Doing this kind of thing you have to have your mind right. You have to mentally "own" the space he wants to come into to attack you. This is an energetic thing and takes some practice.

You need to put your attention, your mind "inside" his attack. You are aware of the knife but your mental projection is straight to the guys center. Your mind is forward, your body is forward oriented, everything in your being is committed to going in.

Then, play with not letting him determine when he attacks. If you move into his space, he has two choices, either attack or back up. If he has strong intention to attack he will, the moment you start to close with him. If you are the one who decides when that moment is, rather than letting him do it, then there is really no reaction time. If you know when something is going to happen, then you don't react to it, you are causing it, and therefore there is no "reaction" time.

If, however, he backs up, that tells you something about his commitment. Keep going forward and then suddenly accelerate. You have the advantage because you have already caused his mind to retreat. He can still kill you of course because the knife is so inherently dangerous, but if you can back him up, his advantage is a fraction of what it was if you let him attack you and you try to "defend".

Just remember, the guy who is defending isn't winning. The only way to win is to attack. The Japanese phrase for this is "offense and Defense are one".

MM 03-28-2007 05:58 AM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Here's a short video of a knife flow drill:

http://www.albokalisilat.com/video4.html

An important part is the very last section where the drill is done in real time. The vid hasn't been sped up. A good knife fighter can cut you 6 times in one second, but it only takes one to kill you.

And, yes, this is where I'm training kali/silat.
http://www.albokalisilat.com

Mark

Mark Jakabcsin 03-28-2007 07:01 AM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Cody,
Lots of good advice so far. Another piece to training knife defense is to learn knife offense. Become comfortable with the knife. How to carry it, hide it, draw it, change hands with it, and use it fluidly. By learning how to use the knife you will learn the dangers and difficulty in defending against one. You will learn the openings that need to be addressed and hopefully a little bit of the mindset of the knifer. All of this is important when learning to defend. Plus, by learning the offense, you and your training partners will provide each other with harder and more realistic attacks to practice against.

Take care,

Mark J.

divinecedar 03-28-2007 03:57 PM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
I'm really learning a lot. After watching the clip slowly you can pick up little things about the timing, body language and techniques that are really useful. If the community as a whole doesn't mind I will post another video later and see if there is an improvement and gain some more insight. Thanks for everything!

ChrisHein 03-28-2007 06:23 PM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Cody,
Here's my knife taking advice.

1. Don't, turn and run
2. If you can't avoid the fight. Have your buddy rush the knifer as fast as he can. while they are wrestling kick the knifer in the face.
3. If you don't have a buddy see 1.

You're doing a great job though. This kind of practice will make you better then most "shihan" before you know it.

divinecedar 03-28-2007 06:36 PM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
I appreciate the encouragement! I also certainly agree with you...I don't want to tangle with anyone that has a knife (or anyone period for that matter).

Michael Varin 03-30-2007 01:13 AM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
The attacker in Cory's video was obviously unskilled with a knife, and a bit worried about what was going to happen after he attacked, which probably hampered his creativity and tenaciousness. The young man said this was the first time he tried this, and still he put himself out there for everyone to see.

I would love to see Ledyard, or anyone else for that matter, post a video where he is engaged in uncooperative empty-hand v. tanto. A picture is worth a thousand words.

ChrisHein 03-30-2007 03:51 PM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Not gonna touch that huh...

divinecedar 03-30-2007 06:44 PM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
I'm just trying to expand my abilities. I also feel that Aikido with resistance allows a person to determine the effectiveness of specific techniques in a situation and improves your timing. I've done it against a 6'7, 320 lb. untrained opponent and despite the lack of skill he was still hard to do anything with. I am far from highly skilled, but practice makes perfect and I'm glad to recieve input from other Aikidoka.


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