Re: Baseline skillset
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Mike |
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kvaak Pauliina |
Re: Baseline skillset
Thanks everyone. Excellent thread and very usefull to me.
Best, Ron |
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The best way to practice this is to get the biggest guy in the dojo to stand in hanmi and tell him to try to be immoveable. Then you walk in this fashion right through him. If you do it right he'llpop up off his base. Keep walking and have him jump back. If you are doing it right, you won't fall forward. if you are merely pushing him, you'll fall forward when he jumps away. When I am teaching we refer to this as "power walking". (Of course you only get thios result when the other fellow doesn't know how to ground out in the fashion that Mike is talking about. Then the guy who moves is hje opne who is less good at the skill) |
Re: Baseline skillset
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Mike |
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I frequently do what you described with older patients to help restore their balance-I also recommend tai chi as well. Both help to prevent falls-a bane for the older folks. BTW-having read some of your comments in Ellis' blog, I would also like to point out that I'm trying to figure out the power of my sensei (Kato). I have not approached him yet to ask for training tips on how to improve this or what path to take. I somewhat expect a simplistic answer-train or something like that. His power is amazing and with so little movement. He lifted (not totally off the ground) up one of my guys weighing about 325 lbs and just tossed him off like nothing off a ryotedori grab. I'm not sure how well sensei could explain what he does. I think a lot gets lost by my lack of Japanese comprehension. Sensei is getting more and more detailed in explaining little subtleties to us as time goes on. Sometimes it is just a little movement that gives me an aha! He also has an uke that travels with him that is pretty good at showing things that get lost in translation. Both have helped me at the right times. As these masters age, getting this knowledge becomes more and more important. I hope to have a chance to press sensei more for information in the fall. |
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Every thing I've seen of Kato Sensei tells me he's a gem. Learn as much as you can...so you can pass it on to the rest of us!
Best, Ron |
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I was surprised Ellis' comments on AJ on weapons did not refer to Kato Sensei. He has a fairly extensive weapon system-all connecting to his hand arts. (In my opinion, it is as comprehensive as Saito's). |
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See, I never knew Kata S. had a weapons practice too...learn something new every day. Y'all just gonna have to pony up the cash and go see him!
Best, Ron |
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Kato has: 24 kumijo, 24 kumitachi, kirikaeshi ikkyo through gokyo, misogi no jo, kiri kaeshi kushin, happo giri and these are just the ones I'm aware of-I know there is more and I'm trying to learn them. THe standard jo and tachi dori are there as well.
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Re: Baseline skillset
I have a question regarding the martial effectiveness of these "baseline" skills and ki/kokyu demonstrations.
If you watch the footage of "Rendezvous with Adventure" when Tohei is taking on the cameraman it looks very different. Don't get me wrong I think Tohei handled the situation fairly well considering the 60+ lbs weight disadvantage, but he was facing an untrained individual and by no means had an easy time. The result was typical of a resistive engagement. This episode was filmed in 1958, so Tohei would have had 12-18 years of aikido and judo before that. I may lack the experience with the higher level of ki and kokyu practices to say for sure, but if these offer you such an advantage and are so visually impressive why did he not use this ability? Michael |
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- George |
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I've had another thought about Tohei at this time that is pure speculation....I don't think Tohei was all that powerful then. I also think that what became a top strategy for him was not fully developed, so that may have been a factor. But basically, I agree with you.... he had way too hard a time with that out-of-shape American. I wouldn't have had such a hard time, I sez to myself.... but I would have to have been a lot rougher.... so maybe I'm wrong i my judgement. Best, Mike |
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Best, Mike |
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What's your take on weapons work as related to breathing? I assume that it would be your position that just doing jo, bo, or sword work without some specific type of breathing work would not have the desired result... am I right? |
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Side topic but...
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Ooops, Sorry. Told Mike I wouldn'tt talk about that .... |
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Hmmm... Newton's 3rd Law... Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. EQUAL AND OPPOSITE. If you push on a wall with 500N of force, how much force is acting on you? If you push on someone using the same amount of force, and they stand like an inanimate object grounding the force, how much force is acting on you?
Where is the resistance? It's not rocket science... er... wait a minute... it IS rocket science... :D |
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Kato Sensei does and did train a lot with weapons. His weapons are very sophisticated with a lot of center and hip connection. They are quite challenging to learn-at least to get him to not say dame des (that's not correct) :). I don't know if that is the source of his power but I'm sure he would say it has a lot to do with it. |
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Well, the repetitive weapons practices with jo and bokuto are, IMO, the major "workout" aspects of most martial arts. I tend to use bokuto swinging and pole-turning and pole-shaking as my major workouts. But just taking suburi as the example: The breathing has to be done similarly to the exercise I mentioned in that thread Dennis Hooker started on deep breathing. There's a bit more to it than that, but that's the essense. This is how the ki is really developed, in the "connection" sense. The body has to be very relaxed but connected so that a "sheathing" develops over time where you can truly feel a head-to-toe connection where if one part of the body is moving you can feel it pull and twist in every part of the rest of the body. The forces moving the arms and body up and down are the kokyu/jin forces of the whole body. There are a couple of cute store-and-release tricks that are done (it's part of the reason why the strength is said to rely on the big toe). And so on. The actual swinging will outwardly look just like someone else doing externally "correct" swinging, moving their hips, etc., but inside everything is quite different. And incidentally, I think the best way to start learning is with a very light bokken. Until you can move in this correct manner, using weights will only trigger the use of "normal" shoulder-muscle, etc. As you develop this kind of power you can use suburitos, tanden bo's, etc. Best, Mike |
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Best, Mike |
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From what I understand, he was specifically enjoined from hurting the camera man. Pretty severe limitation in my opinion.
Best, Ron Quote:
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Someone pushes on me, I don't push back -- I place myself so as to allow myself to be accelerated (in the "right" way) -- around my center (tenkan) I typically arrange my structure to increase or decrease my inertial moment as needed and to alter the eccentricity of that acceleration to cause some manner of entry (irimi). If I accept the force and convert it to some component of angular velocity, it ultimately returns (opposite) to him what sent it -- without me having to add energy to or detract from it or to move my position laterally at all, or even being moved by him, seemingly, contradictory to his intent (irimi). Quote:
You are acting as horsehoe to the hammer of the blow and the anvil of the ground. You are communicating the resistance of the ground to the force of the blow - and you deform (strain energy) according to the limits of your structure. You are primarily limited by the strength of your structure in that interaction. Conversely, receiving forces tangentially allows me to accept absolute forces of much greater magnitude, because I can control how firm my perpendicular connection is and thus how much of that energy I accept at the point of connection and convert by irimi/tenkan principles and how much of it I let pass by to conserve his momentum to use and guide back to him. I am not primarily limited in that interaction by my strength of structure (as long as I can hold myself together), but by my level of control. The thing about overt movement in this mode is that if I accept tangential energy in the form of angular momentum at a large inertial radius (extension), I reduce its perceived kinetic energy at the connection. If deliver that angular momentum back at a far smaller radius, I exponentially (two cumulative square terms) increase the effective kinetic energy at the point of the return connection. "Movement in stillness," i.e. -- virtually zero radius of the return moment becomes nearly infinite (mathematically) and devastating, practically (think about the skater toe-spin). |
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The exercises that have been mentioned thus far, Mike's lunges, Ark's body axis, shiko, etc. are all related to this - developing structural strength and integrity, as part of the baseline skillset - i.e. body conditioning - using the same basic principles common to all Asian MAs. |
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