Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?
So in general, with all of the commotion regarding the elusive "Aiki" (internal strength, power, jin or whatever), all i wan't to know is, is it worth it? The point being that there are rarely few people that have it, many of those that have it don't seem to have enough of it or are not on a very high level, many of them took years to develop it (even on a low level), the developing of it involved various methods that don't seem to be adequate to everyone's "needs", the ways of developing it are by testimonial evidence, among other places presented also here on aikiweb, in contradictory to regular training methods, so basically you have to involve a separate training method for developing Aiki and keep, or discard, the regular training method for the external type because if you have Aiki you essentially don't need the regular external training. I know a number of highly skilled people in Aikido, for which i know or at least have an idea how they developed their skills. By what i have seen and read in many places online they don't seem to possess Aiki but that still doesn't undermine their skills. Therefore should someone still spend time they would normally spend on practicing and developing the external skills on practicing how to develop Aiki, for which there is no guarantee it will develop to a certain "useful" level or at all, or face the fact that Takeda, Ueshiba, Horikawa, Sagawa, Okamoto and maybe some others simply were in the right place in the right time with regular teachers and also owned the much needed amount of talent for achieving such high level of skills in Aiki training. Also if there is some midpoint, using some amount of Aiki for regular external training, does it actually make any valuable difference? I mean if somebody attacks me from behind for a choke, or if i spar with a stricker, does that low level have any value in a conflict situation like that?
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?
Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?
Of course. Ueshiba, Horikawa, Sagawa, Okamoto et al have never been defeated in a fight. |
Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?
If two Aiki-possessors fought, one of them would lose, no?
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I guess I don't know anything about Aiki.
As far as I understand, the feeling is born and dies during an interaction. It doesn't exist in isolation. I mean, if you go to a bowling alley you'll see a lot of bowling balls. All loaded with potential energy. But none of them are near your hands, so whatever potential there is between you and them means nothing until you actually pick one up. |
Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?
You are not invincible. Aiki is not magic.
Many of the people we value in the aiki arts possessed strong aiki skills. Of late, the number of contemporary people with similar reputations has dwindled. Internal power is not for everyone and I don't begrudge anyone either way. I have touched too many people with good ip/aiki, so I will say it's worth it. |
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If you have been practicing awhile, you will likely be touching on aiki in many of your ordinary waza. It just needs pointing out, realizing if you like, then you can target it for development. There is no magic. It is just the way you use you body and your and uke's energy. Not magical ki energy, just the power that you generate and that which your uke gives you, or you lure him to give you, to deal with. It is totally practical but most people just skirt around the edges because they are not directed towards it.
It will not make anyone invincible because most people that practice aiki do it in a very limited - nice uke - environment. Even the so-called 'strong attack' we do is so predictable you have to be a fool to believe it is anything close to real. Just my 2c. |
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Minor digs aside - one of the older descriptions of aiki did refer to two swordsman in perfect harmony. Neither seeing an opening in the other. |
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Are you interested in the answer or not? You open from a position of not knowing about Aiki/IP.....yet still seem to offer your opinions on it. Quote:
There are leaders in the field though, their names are not hard to find and there are more and more courses where these people teach. In sharing this information a lot of ivory towers have been broken and a lot of ego's bruised. Mine was. I asked the same questions as you on Aikiweb 6, 7, 8 years ago....I argued with Mike Sigman, with Dan Harden because I didn't know what they were talking about and persisted in pushing my ideas back at them. Its no wonder they got frustrated. But I made the effort to get to a seminar.....and the truth was instantly available. I see exactly same thing today..... Jon Reading posts something to continue to share....and gets responses from people agreeing with him when the clearly don't know what he's trying to say....or even congratulating him on correcting the flaws in his Aikido practice while implying they of course have no need of such improvements because their Aikido is perfect. Yes -- it does take a long time to develop. Doing Aikido forms is one thing. Doing them with Aiki is another. What do you want? A lifetime pursuit of perfection or a 10 week course in self-defence? And there are degrees of aiki ...even a little starts to take practice from empty forms to something more... Quote:
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Even worse for the solo training thats a defining part of Aiki/IP. Separate training method needed? Well yes....and no. In my experience the solo work is essential for rewiring the body & mind....but it can still be practiced in regular waza. Anyone that trains with me now compared to 5 years ago will feel the difference.... I know why that is and who deserves the credit. You don't need regular external training? Well remove external and just consider the training. I train with Dan Harden so can't speak of other names in this field but Dan has a progression from solo training through to fighting using Aiki/IP. So you don't have to abandon the paired waza training.....but it will change as your body changes. Quote:
I also think they would have embraced the training .....no one is saying its a new invention...certainly not the people I've trained with. Its just not deployed throughout modern Aikido....not saying there aren't pockets of it -- there may well be....but it does indeed seem to have been lost...perhaps not adequate to peoples needs. Face the fact that those names were in the right place, right time? What fact? Not good enough for me. Why should we accept an inferior level? At a time when so much information is available and people are willing to open up and share more. Unfortunately we go back continually to not knowing what we don't know...and when someone offers information they are deluged with negativity. I barely post here these days.....few of the IP crowd do. Its not worth the effort but this post on the back of Jons defence of Aiki has triggered this. Doubtless I'll regret it and sink back to reading with despair shortly. Quote:
A punch in the face is still a punch in the face -- it hurts. Bottom line is people don't know what they don't know....doubtless this post will also be ripped to shreds by some and embraced by others. Is Aiki/IP worth it? Go train with someone that can demonstrate it, has students that can demonstrate it and can explain it then you'll know. I've been on multiple seminars with many different people experiencing Aiki/IP......99% have loved it and the way its taught. Doesn't mean they'll all continue with it...its hard work.....but none of them come back here and cut it up because they know. |
Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?
Invincible? Don't have Aiki (yet) so don't know, but probably not, Aiki is a skill (mental/physical) set ...
Is it worth it? Depends what you want out of your training. For me, (the exploration/pursuit) is ... |
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Accepting that the instructors that have gone before may not have transferred everything also means accepting that we the students aren't quite as special ....or as good as we thought. Not everyone can do this. As for the work....Heck.....Rewiring the body and mind responses is hard. I often feel like giving up and going back to training how I used to because I suck so bad. I doubt very much I'll ever get to the level I'd like too. But right now something in me says theres still time to travel a long way down the road. |
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Not everyone will sacrifice what is needed to learn IP/Aiki. It's a lot of frustration, a lot of boring exercises, a lot of failure. I know this sounds harsh, but why don't we all look like swimsuit models? We know exercise is good, proper diet, no vice behavior... We are all individuals with the freedom to decide what we want to do with our training. Not everyone has access to the education and resources to learn IP/Aiki. So there are some obstacles to getting access to learn this training. You work with what you got and many of our teachers "don't got" so that puts pressure on people looking to train to find access to a resource that is going to teach. |
Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?
Igor, is not that complicated.
Aiki is retraining the body via set of exercises, it makes your aikido better or at least closer to the original aikido: what the Founder did. Fighting is another thing and requires not only strength (internal, external or a combination of both) but also strategy, timing, mindset , viable techniques (those that not depend on partner collusion for them to work) and a lot other things. A body with aiki is useful for fighting but the other elements are also required, especially if your opponent knows what he is doing. This kind of power is not for everyone because it requires lots of time and effort and, for performing mainstream aikido, is not really needed. Thousands of people are doing aikido without internal power and they're doing fine. So, if you want to do aikido the most closely possible to what Ueshiba did, internal power is needed. If you want to do contemporary aikido then do what your instructors ask you to do and if you want to learn to fight... well, there are lots of places where you can learn how to fight. |
Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?
Most people just like aikido because it´s a more interesting form of social excercise than ex body pump or aerobics. You get some excercise and can grab a beer afterwards.
I have a very hard time seeing that doing IP-work will be a mainstream thing anytime soon. |
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No one and nothing is invincible. Millions of guys play football. How many are lionel Messi? .... So whether its worth it is down to the individual. 20 years into Aikido this was the only way I’d found of continuing to grow in depth. Breath was easy....maybe more weapons.....maybe more techniques imported from other teachers. Whatever.....but this stuff......made sense of those that I hold in most respect. It was the final, hardest bit that is best learned through repetitive solo work....which in time floods into waza. Quote:
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All I say is those fighting with Aiki seem impossible to stop, read , block , hit or anything. Check out Alan Beebe “when I met Dan Harden” thread for his interesting experience if its still available. Quote:
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In less hierarchical and more performance oriented systems like sports... not going to happen. |
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