Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto
When I read the OP and some of the follow-ups, the impression I got was that there was frustration with almost cult-like enthusiasm the people who are doing the IP training have for it and their willingness to beat you over the head with their opinions until you almost want to puke, without ever offering anything more than IHTBF. I get it, I really do. It's tiring to be told you're wrong and sometimes not just be told it, but to be beaten about the head and shoulders by it and not really be given anything in return other than "IHTBF" or "go see people". Especially when that sort of conversation is what dominates around here these days. All I can say is that it's probably just as frustrating to some of us who are doing the IP training to read those posts and never see anyone really attempt elucidate what they themselves are doing. Training is always going to be more important than talking, always, but talking and finding ways to verbalize what you're doing and how you're doing it is a pretty important part to actually understanding what you're doing..IMO.
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Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto
working it out, expecting august :)
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Contact me and we can see what can be worked out for here around me......Orange County and other parts of So Cal......maybe combining or follow on. Gary |
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Be that as it may... There are some good reasons why no one is trying to elucidate what they are doing, a key one being that when it was done in the past (and there has been some very detailed information provided, at length, on various forums over the years), the generosity was abused in very brazen ways. Once burned, twice shy. Or make that "many times burned, finally shy." :sorry: Additionally, those who are training it regularly and deeply under others' tutelage, are not in a position, ethically, to give out what in some cases is proprietary information -- particularly involving personalized training methods; it's up to those from whom they are learning to initiate such discussions. It's not that folks are all secret-y to be coy; there just isn't anything positive to be gained from openly handing out details that can be misunderstood, misused, abused, exploited or falsely claimed by others. Who knows who-all is reading these forums? The 'net is the best way to "share" information with a billion of your closest strangers... So, I suspect that there will continue to be posts exhorting others to just go and feel it, meet the people. There are many private conversations, on private discussion boards, going on as a result, and you will not find very much offered in public Internet venues. I doubt much will change unless and until IP and aiki become more mainstream and thus more in the public domain and less proprietary so that it is discussed as openly and freely as conventional athletics. That could be a while, but it could happen. |
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Is there any IP in kendo?
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Liu Chengde, Chin, Akazawa, Okamoto, Shirata, etc, all had to learn it from somewhere. More important questions should be: 1. Who has IP/aiki? 1a. To what degree? 2. Can they teach it? 2a. Do their students have it in progressive levels? How to judge answers? 1. He/She must absolutely, without question, stand out from all other martial artists. And also do so outside of any technique or waza. High ranking kendo people could not understand how Ueshiba was doing things. 1a. Train with a wide variety of people. Research for known, vetted people. Martial artists went to Ueshiba because he was well known and vetted as having extraordinary skills. 2. Train with them. If you haven't started standing out in 3-5 years, the answer is no. 2a. This also will give you the answer to 2. Not amount of knowledge of techniques or kata, but unusual abilities/power/strength within waza and more importantly outside of it. Finally when looking, IP/aiki should be able to be used in any martial art because it changes the body, not amasses techniques. As Ueshiba said, paraphrasing, Aiki makes everything better. Mark |
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A line from an old old song....."When they were giving out chins, I thought they said 'gin' and I ordered a double" Seeing you like the ocean...... "If the ocean was whiskey and I was a duck I'd dive to the bottom to get one sweet suck But the ocean ain't whiskey and I ain't a duck So we'll round up the cattle and then we'll get drunk" Tex Ritter Gary |
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How many would have you trained with? On our end, that would be quite a lot. No, probably more than a lot. As for something lost in translation? It's funny in a not so funny manner that I trained with some one who was there when Ueshiba was teaching and quite a few of the exercises that Dan learned down through a Daito Ryu heritage were nearly exact to what Ueshiba taught. IP/aiki has specific training. It was passed along, it didn't get mistranslated, but all of it wasn't taught to everyone. If you're keen on putting us in a "herd", then by the very nature of our training, we are the "herd" closest to how Ueshiba trained. No, I wouldn't really use those theories at all. |
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto
Gentlemen, thanks.
Mark - as I was turning to aikiweb a few minutes ago it suddenly hit me who you were talking about. Had I been thinking clearer earlier I might have gotten it then. Gary - a double entendre? I do like the ocean... Howard |
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Do not put words into my mouth. |
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So, the theory is that no one can "authoritatively state what Ueshiba was doing". I think that's fairly easy to disprove once the research is done. The parsing was supposed to be, "How many have you trained with?". Again, "you" being plural and addressing the readers. The "herd" was from Mary Eastland, but she merely voiced the term. Others thought it, perhaps not in that exact word, but the notion was the same. How many times have people been exasperated because "we" "hijacked" a thread? The funny thing is that I did an analysis (several times) of the total threads within a certain period of time and how many of those threads had IP/aiki interjected. The percentage was small. Still, it's the perception that counts when the truth is hard to accept. |
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto
To The IP/AIKI Gang,
Just one question...why are "ewe" guys and gals always hijacking, train wrecking, and otherwise causing trouble...here on Aikiweb?!?!?!? :0) ChrisW |
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto
Hi Chris
Trying to bring out what has been hidden Stan |
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto
Stan,
Cool. I've got "HIP" issues as well. That's why I'm goingback to basics...being in "harmony" with the universe!!! I gotta get of my high horse and get on that floating bridge!!! :0) Take Care, ChrisW |
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* yes, i got kids and they have such wonderful imagination. * |
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That doesn't mean individual people aren't working on it (like me), but I have been to seminars with kendo hachidan, and iaido hachidan, including members of the ZNKR iaido committee. They know how to use their hips, and will give exercises for how to do that, but they don't move like someone with IP knowledge. I've had various kodansha level people tell me that I move incorrectly, and that we don't need that kind of power anymore in kendo and iaido. |
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In the end, for me whether something interests me enough to make an effort to learn more about it or not is going to come down to the actual content. Unfortunately this can be a barrier in this particular case since the things being spoken of are kinesthetic and it seems to be pretty difficult to have a verbal discussion about them, particularly without prior knowledge. So I guess I do see why discussions often just devolve into appeals to authority... But sadly the result is that the discussions can be kind of boring and off-putting to someone who isn't already fascinated by the subject. |
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