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-   -   Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19749)

Lee Crockett 05-09-2011 09:51 AM

Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?
 
Demetrio,

And your point is? Your comment had absolutely nothing to do with my discussion.
I have never disputed that O'Sensei was a very skilled and capable martial artist, but it was his time with Deguchi that got him involved in the Omotokyo religion, and it was following this that his training took on a more spiritual dimenstion when he came back from Manchuria.

Cliff Judge 05-09-2011 09:52 AM

Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?
 
Quote:

Lee Crockett wrote: (Post 283313)
Cliff,

The source is a book written by Pierre Chassang, i only have it in hard copy, where it is a discussion between him and Arikawa.

Is this the only book you have read?

Quote:

Lee Crockett wrote: (Post 283313)
All i can do is refer to discussions and material i have had access to. If there are others who have trained with Arikawa for years, then i would be interested to hear their opinion. I HAVE NOT offered any disrespect so please withdraw this accusation.

You dissed Mark not Niall, I apologize for not keeping that straight.

You have really come to this forum with nothing but arrogance and dogma, though. Your entire premise is that everyone who doesn't see things in exactly the bizarre way that you do is wrong and not practicing Aikido. I have found this attitude to be personally offensive in a way that I would not if you were singling me out.

Quote:

Lee Crockett wrote: (Post 283313)
If anything it is your growth that is restricted because all you have done is dismissed my comments, which at least are traceable to senior Aikidoka, you have provided no evidence whatsoever.

Reviewing the mass of comments you have posted to this forum in the past couple of weeks, you are mostly speaking your own mind, with occasional references to a book you have not yet named the title of.

Incidentally,

Quote:

Lee Crockett wrote: (Post 283313)
Aikido is a combats system? Then how can you find Aikido in the Tea Ceremony, Bonsai, Calligraphy etc?

You can't.

Demetrio Cereijo 05-09-2011 10:06 AM

Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?
 
Quote:

Lee Crockett wrote: (Post 283319)
Demetrio,

And your point is? Your comment had absolutely nothing to do with my discussion.

If you say so...

Quote:

I have never disputed that O'Sensei was a very skilled and capable martial artist, but it was his time with Deguchi that got him involved in the Omotokyo religion, and it was following this that his training took on a more spiritual dimenstion when he came back from Manchuria.
:rolleyes:

Ueshiba went to Manchuria with Deguchi in 1924 and Oomoto Budo Senyokai was founded in 1932.

How have you reached the conclusion Ueshiba went more spiritual after the manchurian experience, when is after that episode when he was more and more involved with militarism,

I suggest you to solve your lack of knowledge about the subject at hand before engaging in further debate if you want to be taken seriously.

Regards.

Lee Crockett 05-09-2011 10:20 AM

Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?
 
Well i think its quite clear that people do not even accept basic historical information.

"That which people who practice the martial arts call Aiki is fundamentally different to what i call Aiki" - O'Sensei

This statement sums it up, as does Arikawas in relation to Aikido today "Budo Sportif" which is also supported by the thread on Abe and Tomikis reaction to teaching in the Hombu.

lbb 05-09-2011 10:59 AM

Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?
 
Quote:

Lee Crockett wrote: (Post 283306)
Then you are contradicting Arikawa. You carry on believing that if you want, but i know who i believe.

This guy, maybe?

abraxis 05-09-2011 11:17 AM

Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?
 
Quote:

Mary Malmros wrote: (Post 283335)
This guy, maybe?

He reminds me of

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehzjlGtn9a0

jonreading 05-09-2011 11:58 AM

Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?
 
The point I was making in my first post to the OP was that I believe O'Sensei did not want to transmit his aikido. Think of it like a beta system... it worked but not in a manner that would be consumable by a larger audience. I believe this is why we have such a striking different between pre and post-war aikido and why the aikido Doshu transmitted was different that his father's [aikido].

I think were you are losing me is when you make assertions about aikido and come up short on the evidence to support the claim. And to be far, I get on Graham about this too when he gets a little far out for me.

I think we need to start defining some elements here. It seems like we are getting confused by some of Lee's posts; I know I certainly am.

In answer to a couple of direct comments from one of my earlier posts:
Quote:

Aikido cannot be taught or learnt, Aikido is discovered.

Techniques are TOOLS to help find Aikido. The techniques demonstrated in the class to the students, once being performed competently does not mean one is automatically doing Aikido.

You have to go beyond the physical.
Lee, later in your posts you correct your statement to acknowledge that by "discovery" you actually mean "self-learning". I believe this to be a fair assumption of the learning responsibility undertaken in aikido. You also correct your statement about not teaching aikido to acknowledge that sempai and sensei act in a guidance role. Of course the term itself "sensei" means teacher but I do not disagree with your corrected statement, although I still advocate aikido transmitted through a structured educational paradigm is the best transmission method. I appreciate the original structure of the traditional shu, ha, ri method of discipleship.

You assert an observation of the universal state of aiki, according to a quote attributed to Arikawa Sensei in a book you read. Yet with little [other] supporting evidence you are dismissing many solid and reproducible theories about aikido. Several posts have asked for additional supporting evidence, I will echo those comments. You answered many of those posts with a dismissive statement to continue to train in ignorance. I can promise you some of the guys to whom you made those comments are not ignorant. I am not saying anything you say is incorrect, only that your statement appears superficial.
Also, keep in mind that as with many of the early shihans, you can throw a rock and hit about 5 other shihan who disagree with any statement from any one. You dismiss several posts by referring to the poster as disagreeing with Arikawa sensei... so?
I believe that the technical curriculum we have in aikido was designed to express aikido, not to find it. I believe the connection we experience with our partners actually happens before the manifestation of a technique. Ipso facto, we are doing jutsu if we do not have that connective state prior to technique. The practice of jutsu in aikido is to provide an outlet for that expression. As you have mentioned several times, this is why aiki can exist in other forms and martial arts; we are practicing another outlet for that expression.
I am not sure I can buy the enlightenment then aikido thing though. Imposing an Eastern philosophical principle into a Western culture with no known equivalent (now that we cannot use the "zone") is at best poorly explaining your point. You're dropping some heavy change here and pretty much telling everyone in aikido they will never "do" aikido because if I remember correctly attaining enlightenment is a pretty difficult thing to accomplish. I think you need to come to the table with a significantly better defense than this is what I think and if you don't believe me the you are contradicting Arikawa Sensei.

I think if you choose to share your beliefs as fact, you need to be prepared to defend those beliefs as fact. There are many beliefs I hold pertaining to aikido but I do not publicly share them because I am not yet ready to defend them. I would like to hear more about how you arrived at the conclusions you have asserted and what was the foundational support for the conclusions.

Alberto_Italiano 05-09-2011 04:26 PM

Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?
 
Quote:

Jon Reading wrote: (Post 283345)
There are many beliefs I hold pertaining to aikido but I do not publicly share them because I am not yet ready to defend them.

Since those are probably the most interesting ones, exactly because they are probably a product of your own personal experience, I would like to know them instead - I promise I will never ask you to "defend" them!
And if you decide to disclose them, we'll ignore Lee's comments about them :-)

Maarten De Queecker 05-10-2011 03:41 AM

Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?
 
Quote:

Lee Crockett wrote: (Post 283314)
Maarten,

If your technique sucks, your technique sucks. It has nothing to do with Aikido.

Aikido is a combats system? Then how can you find Aikido in the Tea Ceremony, Bonsai, Calligraphy etc?

You can't, since the tea pot, the tree and the pen are not attacking you. You need (preferably aggressive) energy in order to perform aikido.

That said, it is perfectly possible to apply aikido to daily situations, e.g. in the way you handle conflicts at work or in your family. I would not call those aikido, but rather applications of the priniciples of aikido.

Aikido in itself is a combat system derived from various other systems that had battlefield legitimacy (i.e. they were efficient at killing other people). Aikido still holds a lot of that destructive potential but we generally do not decide to unleash it. Destroying people is easy, controlling them without (permanently) harming them too much is way more difficult.

graham christian 05-10-2011 11:45 AM

Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?
 
Quote:

Maarten De Queecker wrote: (Post 283423)
You can't, since the tea pot, the tree and the pen are not attacking you. You need (preferably aggressive) energy in order to perform aikido.

That said, it is perfectly possible to apply aikido to daily situations, e.g. in the way you handle conflicts at work or in your family. I would not call those aikido, but rather applications of the priniciples of aikido.

Aikido in itself is a combat system derived from various other systems that had battlefield legitimacy (i.e. they were efficient at killing other people). Aikido still holds a lot of that destructive potential but we generally do not decide to unleash it. Destroying people is easy, controlling them without (permanently) harming them too much is way more difficult.

Maarten.
Therein lies the apparent discrepancy and apparent contradiction of O'Sensei Aikido.

That it's as you say and yet that it's as described by others. O'Sensei has many sayings and quotes you can fit with each view as do some of his students.

I'm not one for quoting 'he said therefore' and thus not really one for citing who said what when for I wasn'y there and thus can't fully grasp the circumstance under which the statement was made or context it was said in or even if the person who said it would appreciate others holding it as a fixed position from which to argue a point.

How would you or any of us feel if we came across people in twenty years time arguing about a staement we made twenty years prior? Would we even remember saying it?

Having said that I do admire the real historian who goes and visits sources of information, all kinds of sources pertinent to the person or time and thus presents a more interesting picture.

Plus as an aside it seems reasonable to most that we should hold a view and in argument that's what arguing is all about, defending your view. However this may be very clever and if you watch polititions very 'normal' but why not explore the different views without any reason to go against or agree.

This thought is what occured to me and led to me adding here.

Just that word, explore, mmm. feels better already.

Cheers.G.

abraxis 05-12-2011 02:27 PM

Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?
 
I believe that OSensei's Aikido is the "Art of Peace".

Until you know this, and accept it fully, possessing any combination of rank, skill, technique, martial abilities, physical or mental strength is insufficient.

Once you come to know and fully accept this you can begin to learn to do OSensei's Aikido.

Demetrio Cereijo 05-12-2011 02:41 PM

Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?
 
Quote:

Rudy Ternbach wrote: (Post 283681)
I believe that OSensei's Aikido is the "Art of Peace".

Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum; qui victoriam cupit, milites imbuat diligenter; qui secundos optat eventus, dimicet arte, non casu. Nemo provocare, nemo audet offendere, quem intellegit superiorem esse pugnaturum. Flavius Vegetius.

abraxis 05-12-2011 03:30 PM

Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?
 
Quote:

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: (Post 283682)
Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum; qui victoriam cupit, milites imbuat diligenter; qui secundos optat eventus, dimicet arte, non casu. Nemo provocare, nemo audet offendere, quem intellegit superiorem esse pugnaturum. Flavius Vegetius.

"The Art of Peace begins with you. Work on yourself and your appointed task in the Art of Peace. Everyone has a spirit that can be refined, a body that can be trained in some manner, a suitable path to follow. You are here for no other purpose than to realize your inner divinity and manifest your innate enlightenment. Foster peace in your own life and then apply the Art to all that you encounter."

Excerpted by William McLuskie from The Art of Peace a collection of quotes by Morihei Ueshiba translated by John Stevens.

inframan 06-22-2011 09:49 AM

Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?
 
an interesting article on the subject:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=34

ikkitosennomusha 06-24-2011 09:50 PM

Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?
 
I would say so. Each sensei has learned aiki principles that were transmitted through a lineage. That lineage, usually the head of an organization, may tweak a technique but the fundamental, underlying principle is the same. So, I feel that if O'sensei were present in this discussion, he would say "take what I have shown you and make it your own". No two people will perform a technique in an identical manner no more than a molecule that spins on a certain order of magnitude will travel the same path. I hope this is the correct way to approach your question.

gates 06-25-2011 11:46 AM

Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?
 
O' Sensei graciously gave his Aikido to the world.

Whether it is the martial, spiritual or even aesthetic aspects there is something valuable that we can gain from training. Even if it is just better manors.

Aikido is a tree it needs roots, a trunk, branches and leaves. When O'sensei planted the tree and nurtured it as a sapling he didn't know what the tree was going to turn out like. If the Aikido tree is going to flower it will need to be healthy.

Arguing over which part of the tree is real or better seems rather ridiculous really.

Trace it back in a sense it is all O'Senseis Aikido, he is the seed but not the tree.

Chose to train in a style that suits your needs, requirements, interests. I see no point in wasting time criticizing other people, it will only breed discontent. The journey itself is the point of the exercise not the destination.

So are you really doing O'Senseis Aikido? If you are semantically or pointless arguing.. probably not.

(My girlfriend says this post sounds a bit didactic and pompous - she is probably right)

Tim Ruijs 06-26-2011 10:21 AM

Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?
 
Quote:

Brad Medling wrote: (Post 286495)
... if O'sensei were present in this discussion, he would say "take what I have shown you and make it your own". No two people will perform a technique in an identical manner ...

Well put:) I guess it is why many teachers say: steal my technique!

DH 06-26-2011 08:16 PM

Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?
 
Quote:

Brad Medling wrote: (Post 286495)
I would say so. Each sensei has learned aiki principles that were transmitted through a lineage. That lineage, usually the head of an organization, may tweak a technique but the fundamental, underlying principle is the same. So, I feel that if O'sensei were present in this discussion, he would say "take what I have shown you and make it your own". No two people will perform a technique in an identical manner no more than a molecule that spins on a certain order of magnitude will travel the same path. I hope this is the correct way to approach your question.

At some point in time someone needs to hold some sort of standard or someones feet to the fire.
As it is now its all over the place and it seems to me that lineage, or teachers or standards or rank really don't apply in any meaningful way.
And taking quotes from Ueshiba don't really help as they themselves are all over the place.
What are supposed to say to
"Take what I have shown you and make it your own."
When compared to him bellowing at his own deshi saying
"This is not my aikido."
:rolleyes:
In the fullness of time these "make aikido your own" statements should be challenged by taking them to their logical conclusion.
Dan

gates 06-26-2011 11:40 PM

Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?
 
These are simply statements of fact rather than attempting to add anything constructive to the debate.

Gozo Shioda Received Daito Ryu Certificate from O'Sensei.

Tomiki was requested by Ueshiba Family not to call what his was doing Aikido.

The modal mainstream ranking system is based predominantly on duration of training rather than actual ability.

O'senseis Kiai could be heard from the Iwama train station 500m away. In the Hombu Dojo in Tokyo Kiai is banned.

O'Senseis Aikido is a synthesis of Weapons and Tai-Jitsu.

Tim Ruijs 06-27-2011 01:55 AM

Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 286565)
In the fullness of time these "make aikido your own" statements should be challenged by taking them to their logical conclusion.
Dan

I am not sure I understand. In my opinion the student selects his/her teacher based on good or bad assumptions of what Aikido is. Some students will find their teacher cannot help them anymore (to pursue their Aikido) and search for another. Others obviously do not. Some advance, some will not. Natural selection...

In that process students copy the technique, hopefully try and understand and progress. ...take my technique and make it your own...

The quality that remains depends on the skill/ability of the student. Note that this by no means implies that a teacher with many students is any good! Just that he provides a form that is clearly highly acceptable by many....:D

As I understood O Sensei regards Aikido as a means to develop ones independence; learn make you own decisions...

gates 06-27-2011 04:11 AM

Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 286565)
At some point in time someone needs to hold some sort of standard or someones feet to the fire.

In the fullness of time these "make aikido your own" statements should be challenged by taking them to their logical conclusion.
Dan

In essence I can agree with this, however for a lot of people aikido is applied off the mat in non combative situations. The tests are there everyday at work, on the bus, with strangers down the pub. in this sence people who may have terrible aikido on the mat can have exquisite aikido off the mat, or vice versa.

For me the " logical conclusion " is whether you can "act in accordance to the divine will" when faced with aversity or aggression.

I realise this is not quite where Dan is coming from, there is room for a more martial frame of reference too. The world is wonderfully vast in colour and contrast.

Tim Ruijs 06-27-2011 05:41 AM

Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?
 
So challenged should be interpreted as tested/verified?
Even if you should want to, you cannot. The only ultimate test would be a fight to the death. And even then it says nothing about the level of comprehension and ability of Aikido one might have, or indeed not have. Actual combat is affected not only by your fighting skills...

O Sensei to my knowledge did not develop Aikido to learn to fight, to test, to compete...but rather to develop oneself, better oneself, become independent (do not be a follower). But that is my opinion.

gates 06-27-2011 09:15 AM

Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?
 
Quote:

Tim Ruijs wrote: (Post 286583)
O Sensei to my knowledge did not develop Aikido to learn to fight, to test, to compete...but rather to develop oneself, better oneself, become independent (do not be a follower). But that is my opinion.

Your opinion is valid, as an opinion, and nobody can argue with that. Nobody doubts the philosophical and spiritual influences of O'Senseis involvement in the Omotokyo religion had on the development of Aikido.

Martial arts training as a method for spiritual/personal improvement is not a new idea, however that does not imply that it cannot/should not have a strong marital foundation.

I think the OP was suggesting that Aikido today seems to either sit on one side of the fence or the other and lacks balance between the Martial and the Spiritual. On this note I agree with them, but you do need to have two sides to a fence, otherwise what is it?

Cliff Judge 06-27-2011 10:26 AM

Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?
 
Quote:

Keith Gates wrote: (Post 286592)
I think the OP was suggesting that Aikido today seems to either sit on one side of the fence or the other and lacks balance between the Martial and the Spiritual. On this note I agree with them, but you do need to have two sides to a fence, otherwise what is it?

He was actually saying that if your training is not structured according to his understanding of Saito Sensei's approach you are not actually doing Aikido.

jester 06-27-2011 12:21 PM

Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?
 
Quote:

Keith Gates wrote: (Post 286572)
Tomiki was requested by Ueshiba Family not to call what his was doing Aikido.

Yeah, I would agree. The teaching methods are so different and focus is on completely different ideas.

In my experience, the Tomiki Aikido I learned is closer to Miyama Ryu Jujitsu than other styles of Aikido I've seen. Nelson Andujar teaches both USAF and Miyama Ryu and I'm totally confused with the USAF stuff but feel more at home with the Jujitsu.

The founder of Miyama Ryu learned Aikido from Kisshomaru Ueshiba and studied at the Kodokan and it's interesting to see how he combined all the arts.

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