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-   -   Aiki Age 'shape'? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17840)

bob_stra 03-15-2010 12:21 PM

Aiki Age 'shape'?
 
As far as Aiki Age goes, how does the external shape of what happening here conform to the general idea of 'how it's done'?



Ie: is this the way it's generally done, angles and orientation wise? Or is this an atypical presentation, in your opinion?

bob_stra 03-15-2010 12:48 PM

Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?
 
Hmm: moved to non-aikido martial traditions. Yet, Aiki-age is in the aikido syllabus- is it not? (genuine question)

Irrespective - the previous question stands. Consider this post an attention drawer and nothing more :D

chillzATL 03-15-2010 12:59 PM

Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?
 
Quote:

Bob Strahinjevich wrote: (Post 253848)
Hmm: moved to non-aikido martial traditions. Yet, Aiki-age is in the aikido syllabus- is it not? (genuine question)

Irrespective - the previous question stands. Consider this post an attention drawer and nothing more :D

I don't think it is a part of very many Aikido styles, at least as aiki-age. The closest I think you'd get from 99% would be kokyu dosa, but I doubt that it's explained similarly or with as much depth as it is in the doc you're referencing.

MM 03-15-2010 01:01 PM

Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?
 
Quote:

Bob Strahinjevich wrote: (Post 253846)
As far as Aiki Age goes, how does the external shape of what happening here conform to the general idea of 'how it's done'?



Ie: is this the way it's generally done, angles and orientation wise? Or is this an atypical presentation, in your opinion?

Angles? Orientation wise? IMO, when you get to that kind of discussion, you're talking about jujutsu principles. Good jujutsu can mimic good internal skills in outward appearances. While doing aiki age with jujutsu or with aiki may look the same, from uke's experience, though, both will rarely be confused as the same thing.

With "internal" aiki age -- someone I know once told me ... how low can you go to make up? (paraphrasing).

Aiki age, to me, is all about intent and what is happening in one's own body. Take the ki society "unbendable arm" example. Quite a few people have stated to imagine the arm as a hose and water is going through the hose, out the arm. When I'm using "intent", I'm saying take the ki society example and put it on steroids -- a more directed, stronger intent throughout the body in contradictory directions and then add intent going down the body into the ground and up into uke.

IMO, this is part of what Ueshiba talked about with heaven and earth. His intent is sinking as far down into the earth as he can and then going out under uke and up into uke. His intent was going up into heaven as far as he can, out over uke and then down into uke. Depending on whether you want aiki age or aiki sage, one intent is more directed and stronger. Now, toss in that you would be in the middle of heaven and earth while doing this and you can see how someone could say they are the bridge between them.

Now, let's say your "intent", concentration, etc are so refined that you feel like you have puppet strings controlling your hands. You feel like you are above yourself looking down. You have a moment where the world slows down, seems semi-dreamy, a type of energy euphoria sets in, and then maybe, you can start to see how someone can say that they can be the avatar for the kami.

bob_stra 03-15-2010 01:03 PM

Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?
 
Yeah - kokyu dosa is what I was referencing - more or less, isn't that the same thing?

But let's not get too hung up on that.

From what's visible here - is this a typical example of the genre or not? If not, how come?

MM 03-15-2010 01:04 PM

Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?
 
Quote:

Jason Casteel wrote: (Post 253849)
I don't think it is a part of very many Aikido styles, at least as aiki-age. The closest I think you'd get from 99% would be kokyu dosa, but I doubt that it's explained similarly or with as much depth as it is in the doc you're referencing.

aiki age, aka kokyu dosa. I'd say quite a few aikido "styles" train kokyu dosa. Which means they are trying to achieve aiki age. But, I doubt many aikido "styles" know what aiki age is. I'd be pleasantly surprised to be wrong, though. :)

DH 03-15-2010 01:07 PM

Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?
 
I
Quote:

Bob Strahinjevich wrote: (Post 253846)
As far as Aiki Age goes, how does the external shape of what happening here conform to the general idea of 'how it's done'?



Ie: is this the way it's generally done, angles and orientation wise? Or is this an atypical presentation, in your opinion?

Bob
There are several ways to accomplish aiki-age as a waza, it's more important to focus on the body connection and aiki-age (rising energy) can be in every part of your body. I typically have someone grab the back of my thigh, by my knee, and do aiki-age from contact there. You can do it from various body parts, to include any number of judo or jujitsu throws and a direct correlation to MMA and sticks using a combination of aiki-age as a waza and as power. Again I would ignore the technique and focus on the body.
no comment on the Guy in the picture.
Dan

chillzATL 03-15-2010 01:07 PM

Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?
 
Quote:

Mark Murray wrote: (Post 253852)
aiki age, aka kokyu dosa. I'd say quite a few aikido "styles" train kokyu dosa. Which means they are trying to achieve aiki age. But, I doubt many aikido "styles" know what aiki age is. I'd be pleasantly surprised to be wrong, though. :)

yep, that's what I meant. If they're teaching it as aiki age, I want to know where :)

bob_stra 03-15-2010 01:07 PM

Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?
 
Quote:

Mark Murray wrote: (Post 253850)
Angles? Orientation wise? IMO, when you get to that kind of discussion, you're talking about jujutsu principles. Good jujutsu can mimic good internal skills in outward appearances. While doing aiki age with jujutsu or with aiki may look the same, from uke's experience, though, both will rarely be confused as the same thing.

With "internal" aiki age -- someone I know once told me ... how low can you go to make up? (paraphrasing).

Aiki age, to me, is all about intent and what is happening in one's own body. Take the ki society "unbendable arm" example. Quite a few people have stated to imagine the arm as a hose and water is going through the hose, out the arm. When I'm using "intent", I'm saying take the ki society example and put it on steroids -- a more directed, stronger intent throughout the body in contradictory directions and then add intent going down the body into the ground and up into uke.

IMO, this is part of what Ueshiba talked about with heaven and earth. His intent is sinking as far down into the earth as he can and then going out under uke and up into uke. His intent was going up into heaven as far as he can, out over uke and then down into uke. Depending on whether you want aiki age or aiki sage, one intent is more directed and stronger. Now, toss in that you would be in the middle of heaven and earth while doing this and you can see how someone could say they are the bridge between them.

Now, let's say your "intent", concentration, etc are so refined that you feel like you have puppet strings controlling your hands. You feel like you are above yourself looking down. You have a moment where the world slows down, seems semi-dreamy, a type of energy euphoria sets in, and then maybe, you can start to see how someone can say that they can be the avatar for the kami.

That's all true (and a great discussion in and of itself). What I'm asking though is - does the picture represent the general shape of aiki-age, and the general flow of motion's arrow...or is it atypical?

It does actually relate to the points you raise, in truth.

EDIT: For the sake of disclosure, I believe the gentleman in question is Sagawa, from DR fame. That's neither here nor there though, so don't let it cloud your answers unduly. OTOH, if you think it's pertinent...

MM 03-15-2010 01:34 PM

Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?
 
Quote:

Bob Strahinjevich wrote: (Post 253855)
That's all true (and a great discussion in and of itself). What I'm asking though is - does the picture represent the general shape of aiki-age, and the general flow of motion's arrow...or is it atypical?

It does actually relate to the points you raise, in truth.

EDIT: For the sake of disclosure, I believe the gentleman in question is Sagawa, from DR fame. That's neither here nor there though, so don't let it cloud your answers unduly. OTOH, if you think it's pertinent...

I think aikido people would say that they recognize the pictures and that they look like the start of kokyu dosa.

But, if you talk about the concept of aiki age, then it can be done from anywhere as it is a principle of the body and the results can be just as varied. Commonalities from uke will be statements like, I felt like I was floating, I felt like someone lifted me upwards, I felt like my feet lost contact with the ground, I lost my strength, etc.

IMO, kokyu dosa can be an aikido exercise which uses the principle of aiki age. Your link to the pictures shows a typical response during this exercise, but isn't the whole exercise. Kokyu dosa can also contain other internal principles at work.

In short, I'd say that the pictures *look* like part of a kokyu dosa exercise. But, I'd have a hard time stating if they are aiki age.

Mike Sigman 03-15-2010 04:35 PM

Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?
 
Quote:

Bob Strahinjevich wrote: (Post 253851)
Yeah - kokyu dosa is what I was referencing - more or less, isn't that the same thing?

It's like the argument of whether Spiritus Sanctus translates as "Holy Spirit" or "Holy Ghost" at a multi-denominational gathering, Bob. Not knowing the proper doctrine, you got docked into "non-Aikido". ;)

JW 03-15-2010 06:34 PM

Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?
 
Bob-- it looks like the kokyu dosa I learned in Iwama style aikido. I would agree with what has been said, that kokyu dosa can be done without aiki.
Now that I know more though-- I think if you look at his back, you see a nice example of closing in 2 and opening in frame #3. We could survey aikido photos or videos-- my guess is we would see lots of people NOT doing that. Funny thing though-- if you know enough, you find that the classic form you get taught in aikido pretty much tells you: "bring in uke with a close motion and go underneath him, and expand in an opening movement from underneath him." The form itself tells you this, like a little message from decades back. (You can't see the "message" I am talking about in the photos, it is in the arms and hands. You don't have to show it that way either, it is sort of like teaching vs application)

Al Gutierrez 03-15-2010 11:56 PM

Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?
 
That doesn't look like Sagawa to me.

bob_stra 03-16-2010 07:52 AM

Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?
 
Yes, quite right. Not Sagawa but some of his latter students. Sorry, I misspoke.

Tatsushin 03-19-2010 09:17 AM

Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?
 
Hi bob,

cool pics!may is ask where you got those pictures from?(book,magazine etc)

Regards,

Thomas

Aran Bright 03-29-2010 03:11 AM

Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?
 
Hi Bob,

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say "yes". At least as I learnt it.

Aran

Lonin 08-29-2010 07:10 PM

Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?
 
IMO, that would be some person trying to do aiki-age without the direct instructions from the sagawa dojo. It is also similar to the way yoshinkan aikidokas do the suwariwaza kokyo ho when your uke pushes into you. The end bit differs as yoshinkan aikido always end with toes up and whole body unit moved.

Chris Covington 08-30-2010 08:47 AM

Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?
 
Quote:

Loh On Nin wrote: (Post 263710)
IMO, that would be some person trying to do aiki-age without the direct instructions from the sagawa dojo. It is also similar to the way yoshinkan aikidokas do the suwariwaza kokyo ho when your uke pushes into you. The end bit differs as yoshinkan aikido always end with toes up and whole body unit moved.

The gentlemen in the photo are from the Sagawa dojo. I think the fellow taking ukemi is actually Mr. Takahashi one of the three head teachers at the Sagawa dojo today, along with Prof. Kimura and one other (forgot his name). See a post I made over on E-budo for a link with a lot more information: http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost...7&postcount=44

Best regards,

Lonin 08-30-2010 11:53 PM

Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?
 
Quote:

The gentlemen in the photo are from the Sagawa dojo
I stand corrected then. Happy training

thisisnotreal 08-31-2010 09:22 AM

Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?
 
Quote:

Loh On Nin wrote: (Post 263710)
IMO, that would be some person trying to do aiki-age without the direct instructions from the sagawa dojo.

Hi Loh, What were you looking for, that you did'nt see?

HL1978 08-31-2010 11:29 AM

Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?
 
So what are they working on in that picture sequence that differs from normal kokyu dosa?

Lonin 09-03-2010 09:46 PM

Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?
 
The daitoryu wrist movements may be missing (ala okuden), Uke is still upright in frame 3, kuzhushi incomplete. My take is that of a very big and strong Nage uprooting smaller uke vertically upwards with a tensed and locked body.....not sagawa philosophy....just my two cents

David Yap 09-07-2010 02:09 AM

Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?
 
Quote:

Loh On Nin wrote: (Post 264143)
The daitoryu wrist movements may be missing (ala okuden), Uke is still upright in frame 3, kuzhushi incomplete. My take is that of a very big and strong Nage uprooting smaller uke vertically upwards with a tensed and locked body.....not sagawa philosophy....just my two cents

Loh,

What you see may not be what you get :D

David Y

Carsten Möllering 09-07-2010 03:27 AM

Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?
 
The discussion about the differences between aiki age in non-aikido traditions like Daito ryu or Kashima shin ryu and the kokyo ho of Aikido is always very interesting to me.

Can someone name those differences or elaborate what distinguishes them?

Carsten

MM 09-07-2010 08:49 AM

Re: Aiki Age 'shape'?
 
Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote: (Post 264212)
The discussion about the differences between aiki age in non-aikido traditions like Daito ryu or Kashima shin ryu and the kokyo ho of Aikido is always very interesting to me.

Can someone name those differences or elaborate what distinguishes them?

Carsten

Aiki age is a Daito ryu principle. As Dan posted, it's "rising energy". I know of two aikido schools who have used this phrase -- those of Tomiki and Shioda. But, then again, they were Daito ryu students of Ueshiba.

Modern aikido tends to use the term kokyu ho or kokyu dosa.

Kokyu ho is defined here:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclopedia?entryID=418

Youtube version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsBDgaDtTtM

The kneeling version shown in the beginning of the vid is what other aikido people call "kokyu dosa".

Both of these terms, kokyu ho and kokyu dosa, typically refer to an exercise.

The difference in the two terms:
aiki age is a principle
kokyu ho/kokyu dosa is an exercise

The similarities should be that when you are practicing the exercise kokyu ho/kokyu dosa, you should be practicing the principle aiki age. But, that doesn't mean this is always true. YMMV in each dojo/school/teacher.

Mark


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