Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshiba
This is an interesting and important topic, and has been brought up more frequently in recent threads.
I have only rudimentary Japanese language skills, so I will have to ask those of you here who have a deep understanding of the language and culture to contribute to this thread. Peter Goldsbury, Josh Reyer, and Chris Li come to mind, but anyone can pitch in. I have always instinctively felt that John Stevens' translations left something to be desired. Of course, this is not to say that they have no value at all. We may also have the benefit here of the translators being able to share how they arrived at their translation, or what they found lacking in the older translations. I hope that we can all use this thread to compile these translations, so we can avoid the often tedious process of referring to and then searching for long lost threads, and then have a place to discuss them, compare them to older translations, and hopefully, come to a better understanding. Here are a few translations that I didn't have to dig too deep to find, presented in no particular order, and with no regard to format (maybe something consistent will develop) or who made the translation (sorry): Quote:
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Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib
Actually, I think that all of the one's that you posted are mine. There are lot more on the private Sangenkai forums, but most of them seem to be coming out over time (that's fine). They're not all that polished, and fairly random - mostly done piecemeal as I come across something that's interesting (to me, at least).
Some of them are quite startling, in terms of what is laid out and how clear it is in the correct context. In other words, it's not just the translations themselves, a certain amount of background knowledge (outside of conventional Aikido knowledge) is really necessary to appreciate what's being talked about. That's probably a large part of the original problem. Best, Chris |
Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib
Hello Chris,
Much appreciation for the translation work you are doing. Dan quoted from you several times during his seminar here in Holland. I have a question for you, you mention the Hachikiri, the eight forces. Have you made any comparison between these and the eight forces of Chen style Tai Chi. They sound very similar. Since some of the language Dan is currently using has striking similarities to the Chinese underpinning of IP development I wondered again at the Chinese connection in Ueshiba"s in yo ho. Regards, Alec |
Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib
「一霊四魂三元八力や呼吸、合気の理解なくして合気道を稽古しても合気道の本当の力は出てこないだろう。」
"I think that if you cannot understand Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki, breath (kokyu) and Aiki, then even if you practice Aikido the true power of Aikido will not come forth." Chris states that Ueshiba described the "Hachiriki" as physical forces Active force, quiet force, Pulling force, loosening force, splitting force, combining force, melting force, congealing force. =========== Above requoted from first post. So, if we look at those eight forces, aka Hachiriki (hachi being eight in japanese), does anyone notice what they all have in common? Active/Quiet, Pulling/Loosening, Splitting/Combining, Melting/Congealing What is yin/yang, or as Ueshiba learned it in/yo? Opposites. Hachiriki, the opposing forces of in/yo -- which is redundant really. in/yo is defined as opposing forces. |
Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib
Thanks Mark,
I had indeed noticed the opposite pairings. What I was curious about was wether, within the further translations, these pairings gain significance as primary manifestations, in a martial sense, of Aiki expressed through the body. In Chinese IP there are 4 primary directions of energy flow and four primary functions, each functions containing at least 2 pf the primary directions. In Chen Tai Chi silk reeling, the training of internal spirals flows through these directions and functions. Why did Ueshiba pick these descriptions specifically? Or could a whole lot of other descriptive combinations of opposites be named? I apologize for my failing memory but somewhere in the creation myths of Japan is reference to the sword of ice and the sword of fire, two more descriptions of opposite powers. I believe Ueshiba quoted these as well but I believe Chris will have the source far better than I do. If Aiki is the unified state which remains inside the body, is it's manifestation the polar compliment of the type of force the opponent brings to bear? |
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Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib
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I loved Dan's analogy of a washing machine motor/agitator. Inside a washing machine, you typically have a central device that has spiraling fins. When the motor runs, it turns that central piece one way, then back the other way. Now, picture having a bar welded onto the top of that piece so that it sticks outwards (middle of bar is welded to top of agitator piece). When the motor turns, one arm goes forward, one arm goes backwards. Grab either or both arms and you are moved by the motor. Now, replace the motor with a 500 hp engine. When it turns, wham, it's quick and decisive. It turns back the other way in an instant, too. So, if you push or pull or grab that bar, does the engine care? Does the engine have to add polar complimentary force to function? No. Whether you grab the bar with the motor and it just moves you or you grab the bar with the engine and it rips your arms off, the entire functioning system does not really care how you grab, push, or pull. :D |
Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib
"I think that if you cannot understand Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki, breath (kokyu) and Aiki, then even if you practice Aikido the true power of Aikido will not come forth."
Chris states that Ueshiba described the "Hachiriki" as physical forces Active force, quiet force, Pulling force, loosening force, splitting force, combining force, melting force, congealing force" I have been wondering if this is in someway related to taichi's peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lie, zhou, kao? wonder if there are answer(s) to such question? |
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I know little about Chinese, but from what I can gather on Google (and from what little I know of Tai Chi), Tai Chi uses different characters that are more technically related. It may well be that there are some close linkages. Best, Chris |
Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib
A quick comment - it's not just the translations, but what sections have or haven't been translated.
There's a massive amount of technical material and hints throughout Ueshiba's writings. A lot of it is just hard to understand without the right context and was skipped or misunderstood. This led to a tendency to focus on the "budo is love" passages and ignore the other ones that didn't make as much sense. To be fair, of couse, "budo is love" passages are also quite common, but I think that there is much more to be found than most people realize. Best, Chris |
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Thank you very much for the link. Definitely worth reading. |
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Does anyone notice that Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki, Kokyu, and Aiki are listed? This suggests that Ueshiba drew distinctions between them, i.e. they are not the same thing. |
Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib
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Whether this make sense to you or not...your welcome. It has been rather an interesting 16 years; knowing what I know, seeing what I see in his movement and where it came from, talking about this stuff on the various forums and being told I was the one who didn't know what he was talking about. Years discussing the fact that Aikido is dual opposing spiral energy, aiki in yo ho, six directions, etc, and actually being laughed at here and elsewhere for stating what it was and that it is just about gone. These new translations were a gift to me from Chris. I was floored when Chris read them in public for the first time and to hear my words as Ueshiba's own...(which have never been revealed in English) being read to me. Ueshiba's own words, sounding like he....was quoting me..... all these years. We all had a grand laugh and I almost got emotional. All these years of arguing, and there they were all along; lying there in plain sight- much like all of Arikawa's books....locked up and left in the dust at Hombu. They didn't know... and they didn't even know they should care. As Doshu told his friend a shihan now training this way "I can never do that...they would kill me. I have to do what my father did." So very sad. I felt much the same about Sagawa's book. I had been shown and told certain things that I found alarming and all but unbelievable. I spent considerable money to get an early translation of that long before the book was published in English (something which Sagawa NEVER wanted to happen for now obvious reasons). Only to find out everything I had been told and then had had been writing and saying on the forums for years; Never teach white people, Only teach one or two of your own, It is about body conditioning and not waza, Aiki is the union of opposites in you through -in yo ho and not about you and them...was proved to be absolutely spot on as well. So here is another prediction for you. As was demonstrated here starting at page three, it is a mistake to think that being able to read Japanese makes you capable of translating everything written in Japanese. In fact it was that type of thinking that led to the incredibly erroneous understandings you are hoping to correct. Further, if you had someone capable of understanding the terminology he was using as a well known training concept, it still would not help the vast majority of Aikido-ka reading, as they would not have a single clue how to make use of it. And last...you can take your list of potential translators. They are not only NOT going to help, they will only muddy the waters and deny all clarity. They have no idea of a) what to look for b) what the hell the words actually mean in the broader scope of internal training that Ueshiba Morihei was pursuing and will debate the well known phrases and training concepts as if they were alien words randomly strung together that they...need to ponder and wonder about in order to establish the text. I would suggest leaving them to spend a few years educating themselves...as we move forward in agreement with the worlds internal artists; to whom the phrases and words and concepts are well known and rather mundane and would probably find laughable to debate. It's okay not to know phrases. I didn't know certain Chinese phrases for similar concepts/ words in the TJMA. But you should recognize the concepts ad be able to communicate to other budo people. Something the early students of Aikido could not or would not do. It is also okay not to know the lingo, but when tested by real experts be able to demonstrate competency. Something which aikido-ka fail at regularly. This is only going to be important and remain important, when the community embraces that it was not taught these concepts, (as Chiba and Stevens admit..we didn't have a clue what he was talking about) and cannot demonstrate competency in them either. This step is crucial to moving forward. Telling people to "Move their insides..." and leaving them to struggle, will no longer suffice. Established teachers are going to be increasingly pressured to teach or people will go elsewhere to learn. So, regarding the translations.... I would suggest leaving the work to just a few people who are both professional translators and who are training internals with people who know what the hell they are doing. There are not an abundance of those around these parts and not one of them they are learning from are in Aikido. Yet...if you ask them they will deny all definitions the aikido community is trying to force down their throats. They will tell you flat out, that this...is...aikido; through and through. And as it turns out; is the exact definition almost word for word, that I have been telling you aikido is and always was for 16 years. Now coming from the mouth of your founder. It never could have been otherwise. It was so obvious in his movement and in his pedigree. It's a new day. I am working on a Book, to not only reveal these translations, but to place them in context to the Chinese teachings, demonstrating they were never O sensei's to begin with some are pure Daito ryu, some are Chinese, (some of his Doka are almost word for word copies of Chinese teachings) and then discuss how to practice them. Cheers Dan P.S. I am well aware of others who have been discussing some of this as well. But considering the animosity often demonstrated, I am keeing the discussion to only what I have been saying. |
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Rumor has it that the title will be: "The Good News Is That You Suck!" :eek: marc |
Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib
"Double-Opposing Zipperheads"
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or "Meeting of the opposite In Yo Ho (non-rated and contain mature contents)" |
Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib
It seems like you guys say "you suck" alot . Is that part of the training?
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That's the way I approach it, can't speak for others though.... Marc Abrams |
Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib
It's all light hearted Mary. I say I suck as well.
I am experiencing something almost unique in the budo world, where I have Koryu, Aikido, Karate, Systema, BJJers and MMAers and ICMA teachers and students all in one room training under a nobody. So to keep everyone from getting factionalized and/or uppity and or embarrassed that they might have to "represent," I make everyone remember that we all suck. It's great to see an Aikido Shihan, next to a Karate 5th Dan, in between a ICMA teacher...and no one can do what we are working on. It actually helps each person feel like a kid at play again without any embarrassment that they may fail. It's all good. Dan |
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Interesting. I don't suck. I'm very good at what I do. Nevertheless, I realize that I'll always have lots of room above the level that I'm currently at for improvement. Quote:
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Best, Ron |
Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib
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To follow up on what Dan mentioned - it is pretty unique, and it's enormously refreshing, to get out of the little budo boxes that most people put themselves in. Best, Chris |
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That's very judgmental. Who told you you were very good at what you do? Compared to whom? How did you arrive at such a conclusion? By it's very nature it is judgmental and places others who are not as good beneath you..... Fainting from shock...splat!! :D :D ;) Good grief, Ron lighten up. Anyone with a brain can read and tell that we are all having fun. We don't reeaally tell people they suck!! Just that they suck! Maybe I just don't attract the fainting violate types. These folks are a self selecting, confident, research mindset, type of profile. From young to old, women and men, we somehow managed not to think ill of each other and make friends...go figure!! Dan P.S. can we stay on topic please!! |
Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib
The topic is about language. How we talk is important. It doesn't have to be serious. I have read a lot of your people say "I suck," "we all suck."
When we use negative langauge we get negative results. Just sayn" :) |
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remind me of a friend of mine. saw him the first time at aikido. some scruffy looking white guy walked into the dojo dressing room. he looked at me and started to tell off color jokes that would have offended every race, color, creed and animal kingdom. i looked back at him laugh out loud and started to tell redneck jokes. he looked back at me and laughed. we have been friend since. in asia, there is a fruit, rambutan, that looks ugly as hell, but inside it's very sweet and tasty. and an asian saying that translated to something along the line: what looks good might kill you. |
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