Iwama bokken vs. "the other" bokken
Hi,
Does someone know wherefrom the lighter bokkens come? As far as I know O Sensei teached bukiwaza only in Iwama, hence he was using the "Iwama bokken". |
Re: Iwama bokken vs. "the other" bokken
First of all: If Ueshiba only taught bukiwaza in Iwama, why did he issue a aiki-weapons certificate to Hikitsuchi in Shingu?
Second: It´s not exactly like Ueshiba invented the bokken, there has always been a lot of different kinds of bokken out there. Third: Are you sure that he didn´t use a Kashima Shinto Ryu-bokken? After all, he entered Kashima Shinto Ryu and at least the first kumitachi is modeled after a Kashima kata. |
Re: Iwama bokken vs. "the other" bokken
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink
FYI These are O'Sensei's weapons (Picture taken in Iwama). As you notice none of them have the distinctive flat tip of an Iwama style bokken. I understand that the flat tip is due to the fact that somebody got poked in the eye at some point in time, so the tips were cut off for safety. Not sure exactly when this happened. Regards Keith |
Re: Iwama bokken vs. "the other" bokken
Peter's point is well taken. Though it is my understanding that the certificate was in aiki-bo, Ueshiba also taught Hikitsuchi a set of bokken forms apparently drawn from Shinkage Ryu called "Sho-Chiku-Bai."
One also needs to remember that a number of Ueshiba's students had periods of military service in occupied lands at the periphery of the Japanese Empire in the Thirties and Forties -- during the Thirties, he also taught at the Nakano Gakko, the Toyama Gakko, other naval and army training centers for officers and non-commissioned officers, and Kenkoku University in occupied Manchuria -- and some of those students became intimately acquainted with the use of a sword on living flesh, though one wonders how often the victim was, in fact, armed. More interesting is the provenance of the "Iwama bokken." Quote:
The situation with koryu is quite different. Individual koryu use the sword in differing ways and each has its own preference with regard to weight, thickness, curvature, blade & tsuka length, and so forth. Without access to a qualified instructor, one can easily misconstrue the pedagogical intention or combative application of the choice of bokken for regular training, training exercises or paired forms publicly demonstrated. This site has a nice set of links to images of bokken used in various schools. (I've never handled bokken from this supplier, but people whose judgement I trust have, and they have been complimentary about the quality of workmanship). Inasmuch as they have trained in koryu systems, whether formally or informally, many aikido instructors use a bokken of the type associated with whichever koryu they studied. Hope this helps, FL |
Re: Iwama bokken vs. "the other" bokken
Thanks a lot for your answers. In fact I was wondering why we use different types of kens. You could imagine different types of shinai in Kendo? Perhaps one answer is that Aikido is not a competitive martial art. All the fencing swords or foils have exact the same shape, length and weight (and perhaps alloy) eliminating any possible advantage which could occur from this. I understand that in Aikido the weight of the ken could varies a lot due to the wood essence, but the differences from the "Iwama bokken" and the "Daito bokken" are quite big. I tried one day to practice suburi with a Daito bokken and the filling was... odd. Practicing kumitachi with two types of sword is probably even more strange. Of course, nobody will do this in his dojo if he is not insane. :)
My point is: why we (different Aikido schools) could agree (to a point) on taijutsu and aikijo, but not on aikiken? |
Re: Iwama bokken vs. "the other" bokken
It isn't a sport with regulation training gear. Traditionally all these things were handmade including weapons like real swords. As such each was unique.
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Re: Iwama bokken vs. "the other" bokken
Keith, I have to disagree with that, but most of the weapons manufactured today, starting with AKM and ending with swords are mass production, otherwise you would not buy a bokken with less of 50 euros. :)
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Re: Iwama bokken vs. "the other" bokken
Since you apparently already *know* the answer, why did you ask?
Geez, nevermind, have a lovely day. |
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http://dogonlanguages.org/photos/037...aradawa_JH.jpg |
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Have you ever seen a Japanese hoe that is that shape? That looks African. I tried to look for old Japanese hoe's but couldn't find any that weren't straight. I hope no one checks my browsing searches for Japanese Hoe!! :D - |
Re: Iwama bokken vs. "the other" bokken
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I could not find any examples from his era at all, but as I mentioned, it could very well have been straight when it was a hoe handle and was bent into the shape we see now. I did find quite a few examples of hoe handles from less developed areas that resembled the one in the pic I posted, with the thicker downward curve at the business end. I think it's impossible to know for sure, but all things considered I see know reason why that bokken couldn't have come from a hoe handle if that's what's being claimed. |
Re: Iwama bokken vs. "the other" bokken
The other day I grabbed my old Iwama bokken, took a knife and gave it a kissaki. Now it looks prettier and ready for kenjutsu (albeit a bit short)! :D
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a) I don't see much agreement on empty hand b) I think that only a few of the Founder's students had any jo experience outside the jo forms codified by Saito Sensei. That's why everyone's jo work is so similar. A very few, like Nishio Sensei had soe Jodo. But many deshi had sword experience of one form or another. Some worked with Inaba doing his personal version of Kashima Ryu. Some, like Saotome Sensei. Imaizumi Sensei, and Chiba Sensei, just as the examples with whom I am familiar had private classes in various koryu. If you look at the post war deshi, many had substantial sword work in their curriculum and not a one was the same as another. Imaizumi Sensei actually taught a whole set of Itto Ryu forms. Saotome Sensei, Chiba Sensei, and Nishio Sensei each emphasized sword work but each had completely unique exercises. O-Sensei never taught a unified sword curriculum and each of the deshi did training on his own to develop his understanding of what the Founder had shown them. |
Re: Iwama bokken vs. "the other" bokken
Gentlemen, thank you for the postings! Very interesting indeed...
Nick Regnier http://www.aspireaikidolondon.co.uk Follow us on Facebook at http://www.facebook.com/pages/Aspire...79305248800728 and Twitter https://twitter.com/AspireAikidoLon |
Re: Iwama bokken vs. "the other" bokken
In the sixtys Iwama, we used that second bokken.That picture is modern, so that's very different.Saito would carry a bunch of them around in a bag.
As far as the first one, all I can say is that some katana schools, including Aikido, people have told me that the actual length of ones katana should be the length that exactly clears the scabbard as you draw. This was from the only caucasion ninth dan in any major japanese art, Werner, who wrote, 'Kendo', and other books. (also happens to be a phd in english) He was 6'4", so his katana, and bokken was very long. I also knew a 6'7", pure japanese, an 8th dan in Iaido, he could cut a (dead) japanese horse in two with one stroke. His Katana was super long. |
Re: Iwama bokken vs. "the other" bokken
Dear All,
As far as bokkens are concerned there are various types. Depending on what aspect of bokken work you are doing you can tailor the bokken to suit.For example if you are training tanrenuchi [hitting a rubber tyre for example ] you need a heavy bokken.If however you are training /studying the relationship between Aikido and Batto Ho you can use a much lighter bokken.Its the same when you wish to study Kiri Otoshi, Maki otoshi, Tsuri Otoshi [cutting with full power ] you would be wel advised to get a bokke which is resembes a Kendo shinai .This bokken is shorter, has no tsuba and is heavily padded.Thse are a bit hard to come by.Anybody out know a low cost supplier of these? Cheers, Joe |
Re: Iwama bokken vs. "the other" bokken
Japanese hoe with curved handle. "Aikido bokuto" from the bokken shop. The length (103 cm) and weight (750 g) match the usual Iwama specs. Kashima Shinto Ryu bokuto Hokushin Itto Ryu bokuto |
Re: Iwama bokken vs. "the other" bokken
I try to use the same type weapon as whatever sensei is instructing me. Certain approaches work better with different bokken. The subtle one handed cuts of Nishio lend themselves to a lighter weapon for example.) I ultimately take most practice back to my katana and "slowly" recreate the movement solo kata. The weight, handle, and and awareness of danger often reveals intensions that I had missed.
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