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-   -   Aikido does not work at all in a fight. (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=333)

les paul 10-19-2000 09:34 PM

joey sola

I think you got the wrong news group.
The "(rec) martial art news group" is a few doors down. Go play "tuff BJJ guy" over there.
Don't forget to take your black belt and grappler magizines with you.....

Paul C
Michigan

Mike Collins 10-20-2000 10:42 AM

Joeysola,

I spent much of my younger years fighting in bars and bad places. When I lost, it hurt. When I won, it hurt. Real fighting hurts. When I was doing that I had had no training in martial arts.

I submit to you that martial artists do not live in such a way that getting in street fights is a usual occurrence.

Given that I am unlikely to have to use Aikido in a fight with someone who has trained in martial arts, because (as a general rule) martial artists get all of that out of their systems at the training hall, I have found that Aikido serves quite nicely against the type of low-life scum that would start a fight with me.

Should I ever need to defend myself against someone who starts grappling and/or striking like an expert, you can rest assured that I'll find some way to use the principles of Aikido combined with the spiritual forging I've undertaken to come out alive (or not, and in that case I win too, but that's another string...). I train in principles using techniques as tools for learning. I am not above eye gouging, biting, shooting, chair swinging, or whatever else allows me to stay alive if needed, but when I have a choice, I prefer to use the more elegant solution of both staying safe and keeping my attacker safe.

My Aikido training has helped me make choices that preclude me from being in the situations where "people are always starting stuff with me".

Martial Arts should allow someone who has issues with "what works" to feel safe. But beware of looking for an art that will teach you the technique(s) that will make you invincible, it doesn't exist. That kind of thing comes from an understanding of true principles and severe training which build confidence and stamina and quality of movement and relaxation. My advice: stop looking around at this and that and start some severe training somewhere.

AikiBiker 10-20-2000 01:10 PM

I personally prefer that everybody that does not train in Aikido believe it has no practical use. There are several good (at least in my opinion) reasons for this.

1. Such a belief would keep wanna be ass-kickers out of Aikido Dojo. I mean how many times have you had someone come into your home Dojo and try to prove how big and bad they are?

2. Hopefully if someone discounts the skills of an Aikidoka they not see a need to prove themselves against him/her. Alternately if they want to teach that Aikidoka a lesson about real life fighting the aggressor might underestimate the Aikidoka.

3. It makes that Nikkyo even more of a surprise. ^_^


Remember please all of the above is my opinion only. Who I could be (probably am) wrong.

Later

chrisinbrasil 10-20-2000 02:17 PM

years...
 
Hey joeysola,
As an Aikidoka, I would like to say that you must first inform yourself about things before affirming truths about them. Many have responded to your original post, some in more friendly ways than others, but all with a common point: Aikido works. You might someday have the pleasure of finding that out. There are X number of justifications and techniques to prove these statements, but the most convincing arguement comes in the form of experience, which you need, which you donīt have. Aikido encompasses many teachings.

You said you were looking to find ANOTHER art, well, if you had been in your own long enough, you might have learned that ALL arts have their strong and weak points and you might also have learned not to offend others. You might also have learned that NHB isnīt real life and you might also have learned that itīs unwise to bash people, their arts, their beliefs, etc, especially if you consider training with them in the near future. It seems you still have much learning to do not only in martial arts (which youīve made painfully clear), but also in the subtleties of inter-personal relations and expression of your opinions. Life has many lessons to teach you, maybe you could even learn some of them here. You would be welcome in the Dojo of any of these posters no doubt. I urge you to find out for yourself if Aikido or your approach to life really WORKS.


(oops forgot to sign my post hint hint)
At your service,
Christopher

[Edited by chrisinbrasil on October 20, 2000 at 01:21pm]

SmilingNage 11-01-2000 05:09 PM

did u ever see something and said ahh that dont work. be it anything only to find out after having done it that it works. i dont think there isnt anyone in here that hasnt said to themselves at one point in time that this Aikido just isnt gonna work,this technique just wont work, etc. but often after seeing the technique done and trained hard learning that technique you come to the point of understanding that it really does work. and i think that is the point. you cant say Aikido wont work in a fight until you have tried it.
you cant judge the old book by its cover. you just gotta read it. thats my challenge to you

Mike Cummins 11-07-2000 04:46 AM

>>no practical sparring to get rid of the worthless techniques>>

Perhaps there are no worthless techniques...

Aikido takes a long time to become second nature - much longer than most other martial arts I have seen.

The ideal is be be at the point where there is no 'technique' merely (re)action. These Kokyu can be devastating even when you are expecting them - I have flown over 20 feet into a wall<g>.

Mike

tedehara 11-12-2000 04:31 PM

true self defense
 
Quote:

joeysola wrote:
I have competed in both boxing and wrestling and I am now training in brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I have watched many No Holds Barred competitions, like the UFC, and it is clear to me that Aikido and it's techniques and it's way of training do not prepare anyone to actually fight. I know that Aikido practitioners talk a lot about concepts like spirituality, harmony...etc. but I also hear people talk about how it is a pratical means of self defense. Aikido does not have practical striking techniques or any REAL matwork at all. I would like to know how Aikido can be used as self defense if you cannot grapple or strike.
If you've ever had a knife against your throat or looked down the wrong end of a loaded pistol, then you would know the difference between "No Holds Barred Competion" and true self defense.

Apparently you haven't and you should be grateful for that.

Richard Harnack 11-12-2000 09:57 PM

REAL FIGHTING?!!!?
 
Since this thread started with comments from a person who thinks UFC represents real fighting, I can see where it all will ultimately lead.

Real fighting, in my childhood at least, involved knees to the groin, kicks to the shins, bloody noses, black eyes, rocks, dirt clods and occasionally a piece of bicycle chain. Presently, real fighting involves automatic pistols, acid in the face and a few other not-so-nice elements. And don't get me started on lawyers and lawsuits.

So let us put to rest that the UFC, WCW, etc. represent anything resmebling real fighting. These have rules and restrictions. All of the posturing before and after a match in my old neighborhood would be met with a cold eye and a "So what".

One, as I often tell my students, Aikido has principles, but no rules.

Two, if you think the goal of a battle is to fully engage and "win", then I refer you to Sun Tzu's "Art of War" on the highest attainment in combat. No, I am not going to give it to you, you'll have to actually read it for yourself. Trust me, it is worth it.

Three, sparring competitions, no matter how much blood may actually be shed, are still controlled environments. Talk to soldiers who have actually been in a "real" fight to find out why competition sport martial arts are not necessarily applicable.

Four, mixing styles sometimes leads to confusion. Remember, there was only one Morihei Ueshiba, Gichin Funakoshi, Jigoro Kano, Mas Oyama, etc. Everyone who followed represents a student, mimic or someone who derived their understanding from one or several of these men. While each of these men was aware of other styles, and while each may have trained briefly in those, they found their own path and followed it til their death.

Five, my mother and father both taught me that those who talk loudly about something, often know the least. While those who really know, don't talk. (Or was it Lao Tzu?)

tarik 11-20-2000 07:02 PM

Quote:

joeysola wrote:
Just because Aikido has striking and grappling techniques does not mean that they work. It all depends on if they are practical and have been tested in actual NHB fights.
With all due respect, NHB bear as much relationship to actual fighting as Olympic fencing does to actual sword work.

Quote:


AND IN REPONSE TO THE GUY ABOVE. SAYING THAT YOU WOULD USE EYE GOUGES IS A KEY SIGN OF SOMEONE WHO CAN NOT FIGHT FIGHT OR GRAPPLE. IT IS SAD THAT WITH ALL OF THAT TRAINING THAT IS WHAT YOU RELY ON.

In a real fight, you use whatever it takes to survive.

What does any of this have to do with Aikido? If you don't think Aikido has anything to teach you, then don't waste your time.

Niadh 11-20-2000 07:53 PM

Richard,
Sorry, this is a pet peeve here. Just a clarification. Real fights now do not involve automatic pistols. If you are in the states, the gun laws of 1968 ( I think that is the right one) essentially elimated AUTOMATIC weapons from the hands of people, (i.e not the govt.) You may indeed be refering to SEMI-automatic pistols. I know this may seem a small point, but it is sort of like calling a tanto a katana, or a twin turbopro plane, a jet.
Thanks for the rant.
Neil

DemonD 11-21-2000 10:07 AM

Ah, Your Tiger style is strong but my Dragon style is stronger.

Fighting is Fighting. Doesn't matter how you fight it's the outcome that matters.

Find a style you like and get ready to rumble.

Crude but effective!!

D

Guest5678 11-21-2000 11:24 AM

Quote:

Niadh wrote:
Richard,
Sorry, this is a pet peeve here. Just a clarification. Real fights now do not involve automatic pistols. If you are in the states, the gun laws of 1968 ( I think that is the right one) essentially elimated AUTOMATIC weapons from the hands of people, (i.e not the govt.) You may indeed be refering to SEMI-automatic pistols. I know this may seem a small point, but it is sort of like calling a tanto a katana, or a twin turbopro plane, a jet.
Thanks for the rant.
Neil

Neil,

And you assume that because it's made illegal by law that nobody will have or use one? :rolleyes: P-L-E-A-S-E !! Yea, real fights DO include fully auto firearms. If you don't believe this make a trip down to Miami........ or wait, is that still a part of the US? Oops, my bad!

Dan P. - Mongo

Guest5678 11-21-2000 11:38 AM

Quote:

joeysola wrote:
I have competed in both boxing and wrestling and I am now training in brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I have watched many No Holds Barred competitions, like the UFC, and it is clear to me that Aikido and it's techniques and it's way of training do not prepare anyone to actually fight. I know that Aikido practitioners talk a lot about concepts like spirituality, harmony...etc. but I also hear people talk about how it is a pratical means of self defense. Aikido does not have practical striking techniques or any REAL matwork at all. I would like to know how Aikido can be used as self defense if you cannot grapple or strike.
Perhaps you should clarify your statement to depict the real truth here. That is that YOUR Aikido wouldn't work in an actual fight. Mine however, seems to be working just fine!


Train hard, Play hard, Live easy.

Dan P. - Mongo

REK 11-21-2000 01:20 PM

If you want to be good at fighting -- fight a lot. If you survive you will be good.

crystalwizard 11-21-2000 04:05 PM

Quote:

REK wrote:
If you want to be good at fighting -- fight a lot. If you survive you will be good.
He who laughs and runs away.....lives to fight another day.

Niadh 11-21-2000 05:39 PM

Dan,
Actually I don't believe that, despite what the media would lead us to believe. However, once again despite what the media would have us believe, the availability iof the two, maybe three, models of automatic pistols is really not something that you can walk up to your neeighborhood arms dealer and buy. Now, as I realize the distinction I made between automatic and semi-automatic may not seem much to some, and others will care only that they are guns and bad, to me it was important to make this distinction.
By the way Dan, thanks for making a point that I have long made. Criminals do not care about the law.
Neil

Guest5678 11-21-2000 06:33 PM

Quote:

Niadh wrote:
Dan,
Actually I don't believe that, despite what the media would lead us to believe. However, once again despite what the media would have us believe, the availability iof the two, maybe three, models of automatic pistols is really not something that you can walk up to your neeighborhood arms dealer and buy. Now, as I realize the distinction I made between automatic and semi-automatic may not seem much to some, and others will care only that they are guns and bad, to me it was important to make this distinction.
By the way Dan, thanks for making a point that I have long made. Criminals do not care about the law.
Neil

Neil,

Media, schmedia! They actually know very little. Believe what you will. I'll not try to convince you one way or another. I don't know what you base your opinion on but I base what I say from actually being there. It's really quite easy to obtain just about ANY type of fully auto firearm in that neck of the woods. I owned (past tense for all you police types out there) a couple of "bushmasters" both the 10 and 12, while I was there.

The fully auto pistol is actually a favorite with certain "groups". Besides the obvious attraction, it's ability to be concealed is another very popular feature.

Your right about not being able to just walk up and purchase one, but then, thats not how things are done down there either. Any half @$$'d street hustler down there can hook you up in a VERY short time........ it's a shame indeed when the government wants to take YOUR firarms away but can do very little to keep them away from the really dangerous buttheads. Ahhh, the games we all play huh?!

Train hard, Play hard, Live easy
Dan P. - Mongo

Niadh 11-21-2000 08:15 PM

Apparently My disdain for the media was not clear enough. Let me make it clearer.
"..bubble headed bleach blonde comes on at five, she can tell you about the plane crash with a gleam in her eye..." is not quite accurate enough.

Also the point I was originally making was not that it is impossible to aquire illegal weapons, or even fully auto weapons, which, if you wish to jump through the hoops, CAN be aquired legally.
I was simply jumping on a statement that I see way to often, and trying to clarify a percieved misconception. How many people that believe the media, politicans, etc. would have know the difference between automatic, I.E. ILLEGAL, and semi-automatic, ie a design that was begun with the Mauser in 189? and is not yet illegal. Especially in Florida with its relatively recent and ground breaking CC laws. Granted the gattlin gun was developed earlier, but they are a little cumbersome.
Sorry, gues that wasn' to clear. If you figure out what I meant, good job.
Neil



REK 11-22-2000 07:57 AM

Quote:

crystalwizard wrote:
Quote:

REK wrote:
If you want to be good at fighting -- fight a lot. If you survive you will be good.
He who laughs and runs away.....lives to fight another day.

Uh, yeah. But I didn't get the sense that was the level of evolution in which this thread was based....

Guest5678 11-22-2000 08:05 AM

Neil,

I think I now understand your point. Media would rarely know the difference between semi and fully auto? Many times they report a weapon as auto when it is actually semi-auto. You know, I'm at a point where I only listen to the news of the event itself and take their details with a grain of salt, if you know what I mean.

Anyway, to get back on topic, Aikido was never intended to teach you how to fight, but rather, how to find peace. If not peace, then at least compassion for the idiot thats attacking you. One should not forget though that there are also different levels of compassion........

I'll just bet the guy that started this thread has also tried using the handle of a screwdriver as a hammer. Wrong tool for the job........

Dan P. - Mongo

Magma 11-22-2000 10:57 AM

Perhaps it is the head-up awareness of our surroundings that aikido instills in its students, the realization of potential threats and possible escapes (physical, emotional, or psychological), that separates us from practitioners of other styles. Maybe that is why we see far more shades than just:
white: no fight
black: let's get it on

Really, reading some BJJ/NHB posts, you'd think that the escalation of agression went something like: 1) a cross-wise look across the bar, 2) two guys locked up on the floor in groundwork-fest. It's like one guy says to the other, "You wanna fight?", and upon acceptance, the first gets down into a grappling position and awaits the other to join him. There is this mindless acceptance that there will be a "fight," which is why I don't think that NHB have much to do with real life self-defense.

When those oxen-brutes step into that octagon, it is for nothing else but a fight. They aren't there to exchange recipes, nor is there the myriad of other shades that might color such a meeting on the street: perceived threat, bystanders, weapons, oxen-brutish friends changing the odds, early withdrawal, multiple exits, legal questions, etc. That is why, in those matches, there is the flip of a light switch from, "Let's meet the combatants," to, "Let's get it on."

That isn't what my aikido trains me for. I have often thought of my aikido as an "attack" of the attack. Like tae sabaki with bokken. The kiai of my strike sounds in the same moment as my opponent's. There is no action, reaction. In the words of O'sensei:

If you wish to weaken
The enemy's sword,
Move first, fly in and cut!

Which is not an unwarranted, surprise attack at all, in my mind. Not to over-analyze that doka, but I cannot weaken the enemy's sword if it isn't already drawn. Seeing his intention to attack we make a pre-emtive strike... or exit... or statement... or phone call... or change in posture... or whatever. Unfortunately, what aikido gives a martial artist really must be experienced to be understood... and must continue to be experienced for continued understanding to develop.

Maybe the BJJ/NHB post-ers are happy going from "zero to Full-On-Brawl" in 2 seconds flat, but for me to be there means that I have failed as an aikidoka (not to mention a martial artist, but then, they have failed in that, too). I have failed to notice a potentially bad situation. If confronted in that situation, I have failed to deflect the other persons energy sufficiently to avoid physical escalation. And if it becomes physical and I get taken to the ground, then I have failed to physically turn his energy enough to allow for safe resolution of the situation. (Notice, these are descending circles of awareness, from the highest "eye of the samurai" to the lowest, most base physical extraction... something to think about there, I think). So, if a BJJ gets me to the ground, I have failed at least THREE times as an aikidoka and martial artist.

And who knows if aikido would work on the ground. Maybe IT would, and maybe mine would not. But I can tell you this, in that situation I would still be using the principles that aikido has given me. In other words, I might not be doing "aikido" on the ground, but you can bet it's going to be "aiki-" something. Mind and body working as one to get the best result from the least effort. It might be "aiki-get-my-arse-out-of-a-jam-do," or "aiki-call-for-help-do," but my aikido would still be assisting me.

I can tell you this for sure, no self-respecting aikidoka of any enlightenment at all is going to indulge in "aiki-start-a-fight-to-prove-my-skills-do." And if you do that, then please don't say that you practice aikido. You don't. You practice "thug-do."

End of sermon.

Mike Collins 11-22-2000 11:34 AM

Martial artists are a decent bunch.

It never crosses the mind that many (virtually all of them that I saw in my younger days in crappy bars) fights start with someone "copping a Sunday" on someone else. More often than you'd expect, that is the snd of things, one guy struts away, one wakes up in a minute or two, and goes home cause he's just been beat up and suddenly realizes he's really drunk.

Sometimes the one getting Sunday'd gets wind of the intent and cops a Sunday of his own, or at least engages an opponent who is hoping to get this over quick, so he can get back to his beer, his toothless girlfriend and his buddies and tell the latest epic of his many conquests.

With a relatively few exceptions, fights start cause someone has crossed the line over to stupidity. Usually this is the result of acute alcohol/stupidity potion abuse.

I quit drinking 15 years ago, and in all of that time, the only time I've had any need for martial ability was when some DRUNK came into my home.

I guess the point is, No- Aikido probably doesn't work in a fight. If I'm stupid enough to get into a fight willingly, I'll probably be too stupid to apply any of the principles in which I've trained. Aikido does work quite well in many situations where someone else wants to fight, and I let them change their minds before it gets physical. Aikido served me quite well when it was necessary to restrain someone from hurting me or my family.

Aikido is way more about changing the way you live than making me a dumass fighting machine. Doing what needs doing, whatever that may be, in the moment, is way more desirable to me than learning how to kick some butt. Where would I use that skill?

Niadh 11-22-2000 03:46 PM

Is THAT why all my screwdrivers have nail dents in the handles?!?!?!?!?!?
Neil

Richard Harnack 11-27-2000 10:01 AM

"Automatic pistols"
 
Quote:

Niadh wrote:
Richard,
Sorry, this is a pet peeve here. Just a clarification. Real fights now do not involve automatic pistols. If you are in the states, the gun laws of 1968 ( I think that is the right one) essentially elimated AUTOMATIC weapons from the hands of people, (i.e not the govt.) You may indeed be refering to SEMI-automatic pistols. I know this may seem a small point, but it is sort of like calling a tanto a katana, or a twin turbopro plane, a jet.
Thanks for the rant.
Neil

Neil -
In my youth (1950's - 1960') the pistols were zip guns, later "saturday night specials". When I was a probation officer in Los Angeles County in the early seventies, the "saturday night special" became dominant and began to shift to heavier artillery.

Actually, as I grew up, the name for automatics became machine pistols. Let us simply declare a truce on terminology and say "rapid fire".

And, no, the last time I looked, the tanto, wakizashi, katana and dai-katana were all different lengths.

Niadh 11-27-2000 05:02 PM

Well Richard,
Actually the definition of zip guns are...
sorry, couldn't resist. It is not so much a lack of correct terminology by those knowledgeable about firearms that bothers me, unless of courese it perpetuates the media image. Now I could go off on the " saturday night specials" which is alos a media driven image, much the same as "junk guns" in thsi day & age.
Truce recognized.
Neil


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