What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi?
what is the correct way to grip the uke hand when we do the kote gaeshi?
And which kind of kote gaeshi below here is better? I have 2 sensei at my dojo and both studied the different style, 1 is aikikai and 1 is shishiya-nishio. I often get confused and don't know which is better to do and to learn? I just want to stick to 1 to get a the good habit. shishiya- nishio way https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpK2C4H8OR8 aikikai one ... I think https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll1GCzl4Bxg In addition, how the leg should move? step back or step in front in order not to get hit by uke's free hand? Thank you so much! |
Re: What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi?
Hello Phuong Vu,
The correct way of using the hand in kote gaeshi is the way the given Sensei is showing it ;-) Each Sensei has his / her reasons for doing it their way. I am from the Iwama lineage, and the NY Aikikai form that you have shown in the second clip is very much like the way we do it - there are small differences in body posture and the height that we do the kote geashi from (we try to keep our hand / uke's hand in front of our center when throwing), but the points that the instructor is making regarding hand placement etc. is very much like the Iwama form. If you look carefully, the Shishiya Sensei form is the same, once he gets to the actual kote gaeshi. The entrance (tai sabaki) is different - this tai sabaki is very characteristic of the Nishio Sensei lineage. They have their reasons for moving this way, that are very much based on the sword work that is used in this style. So when training in dojos where there are different forms being shown by different Sensei - do Aikido: awase! Go with the flow. There is a saying in Japanese: "II toko tori": take the good parts ;-) In aiki, Ethan |
Re: What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi?
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Of the two vids shown my preference is New York.The other video is a bit sloppy.No control of Uke in the pin down.The Sensei also uses his palm on ukes wrist, very little control here I fear.He also misses the kote gaeshi [at the start]and uses ude gaeshi. Just my views here, Cheers, Joe. |
Re: What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi?
If uke ends up in front of nage before the takedown, there are lots of opportunities for a reversal. I'm skeptical of the NY Aikikai version for that reason. I like the other version better precisely because he does demonstrate a variety of hand positions: body positioning and connection are more important to the technique IMO.
In answer to the OP's question, though: do the version being demonstrated until you are experienced enough to ask for and understand an explanation of the differences among them. Katherine |
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Cavate - there is no CORRECT hand placement. |
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Katherine |
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Just to be clear about what I meant: I don't worry too much about either exact placement on uke's hand/forearm or the body part that nage uses to accomplish the turnover. If the body is in the right place it doesn't matter, and if it's not, manipulating uke's hand won't help. Katherine |
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I think you can bring someone down in a kotegeishi-esque maneuver on the forearm but you are dealing with an entirely different joint. |
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I think an applied kotegeishi will affect the wrist first followed by the elbow followed by the shoulder and so on. This speaks again to the points raised by Janet and Katherine - where the true power comes from body movement and placement. I guess what we are talking about is where the energy transfer begins. |
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Katherine |
Re: What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi?
For me, it depends on my uke...some ways work better with certain ukes than others. I like having variations in my toolkit so I can respond to the uke and the circumstances.
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We have here a situation whereby we the readers watch a video posted such as the kote gaeshi vids. Unfortunately we cannot judge whether the kote gaeshi is effective/painful/forced or whatever.We only see the the waza , we cannot feel the waza.Also the other aspect is the mindset of the participants.By this I mean this.Is Tori cranking on the waza?Is Uke compliant /resistant/awkward ?So any criticism may well be flawed ,unless of course the waza is either well done or poorly executed.At the end of the day the only way to know if any waza is ok is to experience it. cheers, Joe. |
Re: What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi?
Yeah, we can only comment on what we see....its not the perfect scenario but its a little better than just text descriptions without any visual reference.
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Re: What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi?
The correct grip is the grip that sensei demonstrates. From there, you have the best opportunity to feel the joint manipulation, which in my opinion, is quite varied in the kotegaeshi kata. Seminars are a great opportunity to see variety and get hands-on.
From an instructional perspective, I have taught kotegaeshi as a corner drop (sumi otoshi) with a wrist control (kote gaeshi). We have a few rules: 1. The wrist twist should apply sufficient torsion to prevent uke from turning into nage and you should apply torsion upon gaining the wrist. 2. Any lateral movement should maintain the center of the technique. 3. The bulk of the throw is committed through the corner drop, not twisting wrist (the twisting is just to maintain the torsion in unity with the body movement) I made these rules because, my opinion, the most common kata failures are: 1. Nage waits until the end of the technique to twist uke's wrist to make them fall down. 2. In stepping, nage loses the "center" of the technique and creates a mutual orbit for both partners. 3. Nage envisions the fruition of the technique is derived from the joint manipulation (and over-focuses on the wrist). To Cliff's point, I am fond of using the forearm because it relieves the pressure of ukemi for students who are not comfortable with wrist-twisting and it requires the kata to work absent joint manipulation. Also, there is a segment of the training population that reinforces how stupid it is to try twisting a wrist on a participant who is less-than-willing. |
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Re: What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi?
I'm practicing aikido aikikai, I should mention these two videos are not comparable. The aikikai one (by Mike Jones) is just demonstration of very basic Kotegaeshi and the other one is about variation of kotegaeshi, which it was really helpful for me (I appreciate it).
In aikido clips and variation of techniques don't try to compare but try to feel the differences and learn different forms of a single technique. I always see it this way. |
Re: What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi?
first order of the business is the entry. do you focus on the wrist, the forearm, or the elbow? if uke punches and pulls back, instead of the usual aikido punch and leave the arm out there, what would be the entry and the focus of nage? that entry determines your hands placement. for me, up until i drive uke elbow into his hips and pin his feet in place, i haven't decide which technique to use yet. it could be shihonage, kaiten nage, iriminage, hijinage, elbow-in-the-face-and-leg-sweep nage, kissingnage, and whatevernage. then the torquing of the wrist, which i don't much care for, because it ties up both my hands. i prefer to have one of the hands somewhat free so that if uke gives me problem, then i will show uke a series of rather vicious elbow sequence i learned from a striking art. oh wait! we suppose to have love and harmony with aikido right? damn! look like i need to work on some more loving! :)
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Katherine |
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