"The goal is not to throw"
I have my own personal interpretation about this statement but just want to "throw" it out there to see what others think.
cheers, |
Re: "The goal is not to throw"
I was once taught to "blend, take balance, and let them fall."
Another said "connect, extend, and move". "Throwing" implies muscle. Thoughts? |
Re: "The goal is not to throw"
I believe that Aikido should be done with your uke, not to your uke. So in agreement with Lynn, once you've connected, you move with them to disturb their balance and then let them fall whichever way they are going. If you work with the aim of trying to throw them, you will invariably jam yourself up as you try to make the throw work, trying to put uke in a place that his body doesn't want to or can't go.
I also believe that this is so for any technique, be it a throw, pin or lock. The more you try to do it, the less it will work. I guess that means I'm in the "goal is not to throw" camp. :) |
Re: "The goal is not to throw"
Goal TO throw, no. Not for me. A skill to learn that I put under the term 'projection', yes.
Goal not to throw? I would never have to or not to as goals, merely choices. Regards.G. |
Re: "The goal is not to throw"
If I take their balance and control it/them through to completion, have I thrown them or simply let them fall?
IMO, simply letting them fall would indicate giving up that control at some point. |
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I am not seeking to control....only to receive and blend...the fall will present itself as I pay attention to what is.
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"
The goal is not to throw.
The goal is to not throw. Close, but not the same. Which is it? |
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i thought the goal is not to throw up but more of a let down :D
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I honestly think people make this way too complicated and often way too "mystical" sounding when it really doesn't need to be.
As we learn something new we will tend to focus on details of a movement. As we start to focus on those details we tend to start to over utilize aspects of our bodies. So a nikyo where the students shoulder raise up and they start trying to power through it. Rather than keeping that connected feeling and simply moving through the entire body to cause the nikyo to happen. That connected body allows nage (or fill in your favorite term here) to "feel" what's going on in the other person's structure and applying the nikyo becomes rather simple (unless the other person is doing the same thing back with their own connected body and then you have a problem). So the idea of tensing, or "trying" to "make" it happen involve localized tension and a destruction of the smooth connections. Or as our late sensei used to say "when you try to throw you cut off the flow of ki. Let your ki flow." The interesting part for me is that after some years I now understand that much better (I think) in that now I can intend to throw without mucking it up. I just keep my focus on maintaining that relaxed structure which allows me to feel what's going on in the "aiki" of me and the attacker. It is both simultaneously very soft but potentially very powerful because, well, at that point I have them. And I can throw. Or not. So for me the focus is not so much not "trying" to throw, but more about getting that connection, getting the "feedback" started, and working within that to do what I want to do. Which might include a throw. Just fwiw. |
Re: "The goal is not to throw"
I always thought the goal was to be able to go home after the enconter. :)
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"
The goal is continuous, uninterrupted movement. No stops, no edges. How uke responds to that is partly up to him.
Katherine |
Re: "The goal is not to throw"
Something that stuck with me during practice... It was explained to me that if you focus on the throw/throwing then it's not aikido. My understanding of that statement is that focusing on throwing or taking someone down you focus to much on the end and you forget the basics of blending, and getting your partner off balance. Anyone that is strong can push anyone and throw them around.
It's about connecting, getting them off balance because at the end of it is the throw not because you threw them but because you did the steps right and they will naturally end up in a throw. My other understanding of it deals with awareness. Focusing on the end then you don't get the experience all the elements that led to the end. The closest metaphor I can think of is in the movie Enter the dragon when Bruce Lee tells the young kid not to focus on the finger or he will miss all that heavenly glory. |
Re: "The goal is not to throw"
Interesting
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"
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Aren't you guys really talking about a certain sub-group within aikido? It seems most dissaprove of this type of practice. Dan |
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However, I don't think it is helpful to think of aikido as something you DO TO another person. That is, I don't think "I must throw him" is the right way to look at it. In this, as in many such conversations, I think it's important to differentiate between the externally visible outcome -- resisting attacker falls down -- and the internal thought process that achieves that result. The evidence seems to suggest, for instance, that Ueshiba Sensei spent a lot more time worrying about his alignment relative to the universe than the precise angle of torque applied to his attacker's wrist. Katherine |
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Back to what I said before: is it "The goal is not to throw", implying that while throwing isn't the goal, it could happen....or "The goal is to not throw"? Big difference. If the former, perhaps a better word than "goal" is "focus". Focus on the throw, or the ending, and you're likely to trip up while trying to get there. As my sensei says, you can't bake the cake until you've assembled the ingredients. |
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@ Dan:
I understand that you don't understand. There is nothing mystical about it. It is just different than what you do. That doesn't make it bad or wrong. Just different. Best, Mary |
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"
If you are doing to then you have already lost your center I would say.
Regards.G. |
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Well okay then. I don't think right or wrong is the question. Anyone can do whatever they want. What's wrong with that? But we all carry the weight of clarity in our choices. Leaving me out of this... why would a fall...happen...to someone NOT launching their center at someone, but retaining it while they attack? How, where, and why would they fall down? Do they want to fall down? Are they trying to help you let them fall down? If we are agreeing that the person attacking is cooperating and offering their center out from themselves, than that's fine. But it does open those observations: 1. It is a fairly unique way to do any sort of budo. As I said, I've only seen it in Aikido and Daito ryu. 2. It appears from reading, and meeting people all over the world that, that level of cooperation is certainly not the most popular method. 3. So it certainly expands on the question of what it takes to throw someone both in aikido and from someone you would have to use aikido on outside of the art. Dan |
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"
I am on the fence about this one, mostly because [I think] the way this is explained by seniors and the way it is interpreted by juniors is sometimes not the same. This is one of those concepts that is generally introduced too early and the result is... different than the intent.
The goal should be to throw until you know how to throw and can do it with competency. Dan is spot on in saying throwing someone who is not cooperating is a different experience than throwing someone who is actively participating in their own compromise. For those who can competently throw tori with or without tori's participation, talk all you want about the mundane of focusing on throwing our partners. As a competent practitioner, ideally your movement transitions such that you do not focus on moving your partner; you focus on moving yourself after assimilating your partner onto your center. I'd also add a few observations: 1. Aikido is about control. The fact that you are trying to alter your partner's response to your own design inherently defines your actions as "controlling". That said, I do not think there is anything wrong asserting control over your partner; the magic lies in why you are asserting control... 2. Aikido in many respects seeks to accelerate the experience of throwing by generally repressing uke's natural responses to preserve his center. I think we call those who do not willfully fall for us "jerks with bad energy"... My instructor used to describe this transition as analogous to when we learned to drive. Both hands on the wheel, full stops, no radio, turn signals when we think we are changing lanes and absolute terror merging onto the highway. 10 years later... listening to the radio, driving with one hand while (gulp) texting and absolute terror merging onto the highway. We need to let our bodies absorb the movements before we are ready to decide what we do and don't need. And we certainly should be questioning anyone who has decided to tell us what we don't need or won't teach... |
Re: "The goal is not to throw"
Ms. Eastman provides a link to her dojo's web site with a link to a collection of videos on YouTube
http://www.miron-enterprises.com/ber...deo_clips.html also http://www.youtube.com/user/thermopile85/videos Picture worth a thousand words and all that... |
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