Re: philosophical or practical martial art?
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When you practise for good fun and by accident you get something out of it, I do not consider that proper training/practise. You train purposefully to improve something. |
Re: philosophical or practical martial art?
You're contradicting yourself, Tim. Almost nobody starts training (or, I guess we're not allowed to use that word if we're not sufficiently intentional, so let's just call it "starts taking martial arts classes", will that do?) with the mindset of "Oh, I'll just go into this with a totally open mind, no expectations or desires or even interests, and we'll just see what happens." People typically go in looking for something or with some idea of what might happen, but hopefully with a mind that is open to discovering new things and changing their reason for being there. You're very down on "fun", whatever...that's your value judgment. But I don't see a meaningful difference between "fun" and "self-defense" in this context. It's what brought you in the door, it's not necessarily the only thing you'll walk out with.
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Re: philosophical or practical martial art?
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It is hard to find the right words sometimes, sorry for that. I am afraid you have read something I am not trying to say. Perhaps I have stated things a bit black/white. Quote:
Regarding the 'fun' part: first of all practise with a smile on your face. Aikido is fun. What I meant to say is that when you practise just for the fun of it (no deeper interest in Aikido) you are not likely to advance. However, I do believe that when you want to advance (get better? improve?) you must know what to work on and do not leave that to chance. |
Re: philosophical or practical martial art?
Anything you do for the right reasons is fun. So fun is related to proper training. It's a result rather than a purpose.
With correct purpose you have fun. On the other side of the coin if you are doing something for the 'wrong' reasons then for you it's harder, heavier going and not so much fun. This applies to everything no? Remember being stuck in a classroom studying a subject you neither wanted to do or could see any use for in your life? Not much fun eh? In fact I would say fun is a basic desire rather than a purpose. Regards.G. |
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Re: philosophical or practical martial art?
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My aikido training is frequently like this. I don't have a goal in aikido, apart from to keep training. That doesn't mean I don't have standards of how I do things, or that I try to do things well, to do them better than I did last time if possible. But there isn't a goal. I don't get to have goals. I have rheumatoid arthritis, and so far I've been lucky, but my ability to exist as an independently moving physical being could go away virtually overnight and stay that way permanently. Every New Year it seems we have a thread on Aikiweb where people articulate their New Year's resolutions: I will train x times a week, I will achieve such-and-such rank, I will master such-and-such technique, I will attend this seminar or summer camp. It's meaningless for me to "resolve" to do anything like that. So I don't go there. I don't try to "advance". That's for other people. |
Re: philosophical or practical martial art?
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Re: philosophical or practical martial art?
I'm about as beginning a beginner as you'll find on here: I first went to the dojo about six weeks ago.
My sensei seems to tend more toward the philosophical bent, but that doesn't keep me from being incredibly tired and sore after a class session. Also, I'm a pretty extreme example of an INTP personality, and believe right down to my very core that if the design/plan/theory is correct the rest will follow. I've been kind of amazed: I've always been kind of slow picking up new physical skills, and I'm GETTING it! The last month I've been sounding about like a born again aikidoka telling EVERYONE how cool it is :) - Janet. |
Re: philosophical or practical martial art?
I think the philisophical side of martial arts will take you further than will the self-defense side of it. The reason being that most people don't need self-defense skills in order to survive in the world. In addition, having a well developed Aikido-mindset means that you'll be able to avoid situations wherein you might normally need to fight.
Let's face it, combat training is very anti-climactic. We never seem to find ourselves in the dark alley surrounded by three assailants the way we trained for. All the cool weapons you train with amount to little more than abandoned toys at a certain point. So where does that leave the individual martial artist? How do we apply all these martial skills in a civilized world? I've found that through training, I improve my physical health. I look better and feel better. It makes me smarter too, having to remember moves and terminology. It gives me confidence and has allowed me to meet others whom I'd normally never get to know. It allows me to more effectively explore spiritual insights as well. The physical and mental are often connected, but there is a clearly a mental/spiritual aspect of martial arts that is wholly separate from anything combat related. |
Re: philosophical or practical martial art?
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Regards.G. |
Re: philosophical or practical martial art?
Why-oh-why must we break Aikido down in terms of "martial" VS. "philosophical"(or "spiritual")...
Are we so terribly dualistic in our thinking that we cannot conceive that Aikido is BOTH a spiritual practice and martially effective? As far as what to focus on when one is training, I try to focus on Aikido! Aikido is Aikido. It is unique. If we just want to learn how to beat someone up in a bar brawl, there are a lot of other ways to learn that, and they take a lot less time to learn than "the spirit of loving protection for all." One of my Senseis asked the other day, "Why do YOU practice Aikido, and not something else?" It is an important thing to contemplate! Therein we find our own clarity about what on Earth we are trying to accomplish at the dojo. |
Re: philosophical or practical martial art?
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Re: philosophical or practical martial art?
Can you do the "philosophy" of Aikido without learning the martial art?
dps |
Re: philosophical or practical martial art?
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Re: philosophical or practical martial art?
Can you do the martial art without the "philosophy".
dps |
Re: philosophical or practical martial art?
I like what Yannis said to your previous question, David. This time I will answer your current question also with - in my opinion, no. When it comes to Aikido specifically, I do not believe that you can separate the martial and the philosophical and still call it Aikido.
Mary, I understand that you might not want to use the term "spiritual" to describe your practice. Personally, for me, Aikido is absolutely a spiritual practice. It challenges me deeply on every level of my being, in such a profound and rigorous way that I would have to call it a spiritual practice or journey. |
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Re: philosophical or practical martial art?
So Aikido is a martial art, spiritual path and a philosophical practice.
What is the Aikido spirituality and Aikido philosophy that you must practice to make your martial art Aikido? dps |
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Re: philosophical or practical martial art?
I no longer practice Aikido in a dojo, I do it at home. My spirituality comes from my religious beliefs and practices that I have had since a child. My philosophy about violence, peace, fighting, not fighting I got from my Dad when I was in grade school. He taught me how to box and when to fight that put an end to being bullied in grade school.
Am I practicing Aikido even though I do not practice Aikido philosophy or Aikido Spirituality? dps |
Re: philosophical or practical martial art?
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Re: philosophical or practical martial art?
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Strictly speaking, I think I disagree. I look at the variety of Aikido practice that I've seen, which spans from being almost entirely physical in emphasis to almost entirely mental/"spiritual," and I think all can call it "Aikido," because they're derived from the lineage of the same name. I look to my experiences with Jinja Shinto as an analogy. My sense is that individuals will pick up different meaning and that on some level this reflects the individualized nature of one's connection to spirituality/kami. Similarly, I see Aikido as an expression of nature and that different groups of people will naturally connect to different aspects of that whole. This isn't to say no one can be wrong in their understanding...and indeed I think on some level no one can be absolutely right...probably. Hence the path of learning being one for a lifetime, a continual process of applying new information and refining the old, through focused interaction. As a :do: I get the sense it ultimately has to do with how to understand the broader nature of things and I think that demands a little individual wiggle-room or it risks becoming a kind of faded photocopy. ...My two bits. Take care, Matt |
Re: philosophical or practical martial art?
In thinking about this some more, I'm a little more unsure of my remarks. So rather than say I disagree, I think I'm more comfortable with suggesting that, because almost none of us shares the same exact philosophy as O Sensei, it starts to beg a lot of question when we ourselves start imposing our own standards on other folks. So someone like David, who feels his philosophy or spirituality comes from other places, can be said to be still doing Aikido. (I hope you don't mind my using your example directly, David)
...Two bits. |
Re: philosophical or practical martial art?
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I only know that from my experience, I could only attempt to do that after having had the actual Aikido instruction on the mat. It is as though I could not actually take those concepts and apply them until I had certain experiences in my body. David, I really don't want to spend my time telling you what experiences you are or aren't having, and labeling them for you! I'd much rather hear you just talk about your own experiences from your own point of view. Sometimes I think it is easier to speak from a sort of distance about what other people do or say or experience, but perhaps our discussions can be richer when they are focused on sharing our own experiences with sincerity and some of that rigor that Mary mentioned. Aikido has often left me feeling very sort of exposed in an often uncomfortable way. I have come to find that gee, you know, sometimes I don't feel like being a nice girl. Sometimes I have so much anger I just want to bash someone in the face. Gee, maybe I'm not that peaceful! Maybe I hold way too much tension in my shoulders and neck pretty much all of the time, and why is that? Maybe I approach much of my life as though I am just white-knuckling through my experiences, and why is that? If I truly do want to be peaceful, then what are the barriers within which need to be dissolved for me to get there? For me, it's definitely a rigorous process, and very intertwined with the performance of certain techniques and habitual difficulties that I might have with said techniques. SO: Personally, I see the philosophical and martial aspects of the art of Aikido as being very bound to one another. I would not wish to separate them. Personally, I see my Aikido journey as a spiritual practice, for some of the reasons I have mentioned, and more. Personally, learning martial applications on the mat has brought a whole new level of awareness regarding my own body movement both on and off the mat. Those are my experiences. I am interested in hearing about other people's experiences. |
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