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-   -   What is atemi really for? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21224)

Mario Tobias 04-21-2012 06:20 AM

What is atemi really for?
 
What is atemi really for?

Abasan 04-21-2012 09:01 AM

Re: What is atemi really for?
 
To take uke's center.

phitruong 04-21-2012 02:52 PM

Re: What is atemi really for?
 
for "never having to say you're sorry." :)

dps 04-22-2012 01:40 AM

Re: What is atemi really for?
 
"Although the atemi-waza and kansetsu-waza can be viewed as techniques that can inflict a severe injury on an opponent, if we study the principles of the martial arts well, we realize that they are exquisite techniques for toppling (taosu) or controlling (osaeru) an opponent without necessarily harming him. "

From:

http://www.judoinfo.com/tomiki2.htm;

On Jujutsu and its Modernization
by Kenji Tomiki

dps

PeterR 04-22-2012 04:31 AM

Re: What is atemi really for?
 
The link doesn't work but the article is a classic. If you can't correct the link I know it is somewhere under the Shodokan Honbu website.

Quote:

David Skaggs wrote: (Post 307824)
"Although the atemi-waza and kansetsu-waza can be viewed as techniques that can inflict a severe injury on an opponent, if we study the principles of the martial arts well, we realize that they are exquisite techniques for toppling (taosu) or controlling (osaeru) an opponent without necessarily harming him. "

From:

http://www.judoinfo.com/tomiki2.htm;

On Jujutsu and its Modernization
by Kenji Tomiki

dps


sorokod 04-22-2012 06:50 AM

Re: What is atemi really for?
 
Quote:

Peter Rehse wrote: (Post 307827)
The link doesn't work but the article is a classic. If you can't correct the link I know it is somewhere under the Shodokan Honbu website.

Fixed link: http://www.judoinfo.com/tomiki2.htm

MM 04-22-2012 07:52 AM

Re: What is atemi really for?
 
Quote:

Mario Tobias wrote: (Post 307789)
What is atemi really for?

Supposedly, according to Ueshiba, it's used for fighting.

CitoMaramba 04-22-2012 08:39 AM

Re: What is atemi really for?
 
Quote:

Mario Tobias wrote: (Post 307789)
What is atemi really for?

1. Tenderizing meat.
2. 99% (or 90% or 70%, depending on the quote) of Aikido, according to Ueshiba Kaiso.
3. For that added flavour in soups, stews and noodles!

lbb 04-22-2012 08:52 AM

Re: What is atemi really for?
 
For busting people in the face?

MM 04-22-2012 10:16 AM

Re: What is atemi really for?
 
Quote:

Inocencio Maramba wrote: (Post 307832)
2. 99% (or 90% or 70%, depending on the quote) of Aikido, according to Ueshiba Kaiso.

According to Shioda in his book, Aikido Shugyo:
Quote:

Shioda wrote:
Many of you are likely surprised at how often I use atemi. This is only natural since when we talk about Aikido, everyone is caught up in images of wrist grasps and flashy throws. However, Ueshiba Morihei Sensei himself, who was my master at one point, expressed himself in the following manner. He said, "In a real fight, Aikido is 70 percent atemi and 30 percent throwing." Based on my own experience, I can say that this is precisely the case.

It's been said that Shioda's aikido, of all the students, was most like Ueshiba's. It has also been said that Ueshiba was the favored student of Sokaku Takeda. However you want to look at it, the focus of the quote is "real fight", not training and not in the dojo. It seems that when this quote/percentages are used, everyone forgets that part. Should you still not be convinced, look at the films of Ueshiba, post-war, and count the number of atemi he uses. He doesn't connect and sometimes doesn't come close, but they are there.

In Kisshomaru's aikido, aka Modern Aikido, atemi has a much, much smaller role. Does your practice use atemi as Ueshiba did, even in his post-war years? Why not?

Aikibu 04-22-2012 12:28 PM

Re: What is atemi really for?
 
Well we're one of those 90 per-centers...Atemi gives Uke the opportunity to stop fighting. :D

William Hazen

Kevin Leavitt 04-22-2012 03:34 PM

Re: What is atemi really for?
 
Atemi an be used for several things. It can be used to disrupt the fight. That is to create space and take control of the fight to the point that u can dominate your opponent and submit him to your will. Some might call this taking center, but I think taking center is too specific and presents a limited view of atemi. Think in terms of disrupting or staying ahead of your opponents OODA loop. Atemi is all about this, and I think this is the primary use of atemi. Once u control the fight, secondarily, or can be used to inflict damage to your opponent or be used to keep control, further disruption of your opponents OODA loop, or to break his will to fight.

St Matt 04-23-2012 04:54 AM

Re: What is atemi really for?
 
Atemi is for hitting people in the kisser.

Walter Martindale 04-23-2012 06:49 AM

Re: What is atemi really for?
 
Quote:

Matt Bostock wrote: (Post 307875)
Atemi is for hitting people in the kisser.

Or on the back of the neck, or in the ribs, or nearly anywhere else...
(no teeth in the back of the neck)
:D
W

chillzATL 04-23-2012 06:57 AM

Re: What is atemi really for?
 
disrupting their focus, taking their center, introducing tension and if you're good/lucky enough, knocking the fight out of them completely.

Richard Stevens 04-23-2012 08:08 AM

Re: What is atemi really for?
 
If you do it right you don't need to take their center. :p

jurasketu 04-23-2012 08:25 AM

Re: What is atemi really for?
 
Stunned people are a LOT easier to throw.

Abasan 04-23-2012 11:20 AM

Re: What is atemi really for?
 
If you do it 'right' you'll end up in jail. If you do enough and take his center then all's good... IMHO anyway.

sakumeikan 04-23-2012 01:14 PM

Re: What is atemi really for?
 
Quote:

Matt Bostock wrote: (Post 307875)
Atemi is for hitting people in the kisser.

Dear Matt,
You are far to limited in your choice of target.What is wrong with a well directed kick to the persons knee caps or if you really want to close the encounter fast with minimum effort I would suggest a kick in the scrotum would suffice?This works better than a fancy shiho nage. Cheers, Joe

Aikibu 04-23-2012 01:37 PM

Re: What is atemi really for?
 
Quote:

Ahmad Abas wrote: (Post 307908)
If you do it 'right' you'll end up in jail. If you do enough and take his center then all's good... IMHO anyway.

If the choice was jail or the hospital which one would you choose? The sad fact is most Aikidoka have not had enough practice (or practice with enough serious martial intent) to make that choice.

I'll put it this way...Using Atemi effectively means knowing how to deal with a real punch or a take down attempt...There are just as many anecdotes regarding Aikidoka getting their butts kicked as there are about ones who deal with a fight successfully...( I have had personal experience with both)

And look it's all good with me if you know or don't know how to use atemi (Some folks in Aikido do not consider it a Budo or a Martial Art) as most situations do not require life and death resolutions... However... as my old Ranger Platoon Sargent used to say..."Better to have and need not Then to need and not have." :)

So it's kind of obvious to me what "Atemi is really for"

I personally feel it's important if you know that answer for yourself... and to be both honest and realistic in this regard with your practice." :)

William Hazen

Gerardo Torres 04-23-2012 02:02 PM

Re: What is atemi really for?
 
What is atemi really for... in aikido training?

To me this is a bit of a chicken and egg situation. If you have aiki and power you can kick, punch, etc. with aiki and power in which case you'd be doing... aikido.

If you have no aiki and power to begin with, no amount of importing striking techniques from karate, muay-thai, boxing, etc., is going to help you gain aiki or the kind of power that Ueshiba or Shioda were using. I see this in many aikido schools -- adding unarmed fighting arts to their curriculum -- which might result in better fighters but not necessarily improve the core aikido skills.

I agree that atemi is extremely important for fighting. But since not all atemi-waza are created for equal purposes, which ones are we supposed to to use in aikido waza/applications? Then you have a wide variety of ate-waza from armed and unarmed koryu -- are we supposed to be using any of that? Which ones are better for aikido waza? Perhaps importing the "wrong" striking technique would technically and tactically make the situation worse (in practical terms)? I guess I'm interested to know of any specific direction O Sensei gave in the matter of atemi other than the quote posted above by Mark Murray.

Aikibu 04-23-2012 02:43 PM

Re: What is atemi really for?
 
Quote:

Gerardo Torres wrote: (Post 307933)
What is atemi really for... in aikido training?

To me this is a bit of a chicken and egg situation. If you have aiki and power you can kick, punch, etc. with aiki and power in which case you'd be doing... aikido.

If you have no aiki and power to begin with, no amount of importing striking techniques from karate, muay-thai, boxing, etc., is going to help you gain aiki or the kind of power that Ueshiba or Shioda were using. I see this in many aikido schools -- adding unarmed fighting arts to their curriculum -- which might result in better fighters but not necessarily improve the core aikido skills.

I agree that atemi is extremely important for fighting. But since not all atemi-waza are created for equal purposes, which ones are we supposed to to use in aikido waza/applications? Then you have a wide variety of ate-waza from armed and unarmed koryu -- are we supposed to be using any of that? Which ones are better for aikido waza? Perhaps importing the "wrong" striking technique would technically and tactically make the situation worse (in practical terms)? I guess I'm interested to know of any specific direction O Sensei gave in the matter of atemi other than the quote posted above by Mark Murray.

Good points....However (and with all due respect) Most don't suffer from such philosophical or tactical confusion (For example Shoji Nishio didn't nor do some other important Shihan) only practical application with intent. And while the whole "Aiki power" argument has certain important merits it suffers from a lack of competent experienced teachers to teach it and to infer that folks should not step outside of Aikido in order to improve aspects of their practice including "Aiki" power is self defeating.

I've read all the discussions about "aiki" power and agree with most of them so let's not beat a dead horse...If you need to go to a boxing or MMA class to learn how to "atemi" or Chinese IMA class to experiance "Aiki" by all means go. Make the use of all the best resources available to improve your Aikido. Nishio Ryu practitioners are encouraged to do this since and as far as I know O'Sensei never objected to it either...Aikido should go "back to the future" and include Aiki and should also improve it's syllabus and continue to evolve.

Your Aikido journey should be on the widest possible path of experience...

"In order for Aikido to be considered (a) budo it must be effective against other Martial Arts."-Shoji Nishio Shihan.

William Hazen

Gerardo Torres 04-23-2012 03:50 PM

Re: What is atemi really for?
 
Quote:

William Hazen wrote: (Post 307940)
Good points....However (and with all due respect) Most don't suffer from such philosophical or tactical confusion (For example Shoji Nishio didn't nor do some other important Shihan) only practical application with intent. And while the whole "Aiki power" argument has certain important merits it suffers from a lack of competent experienced teachers to teach it and to infer that folks should not step outside of Aikido in order to improve aspects of their practice including "Aiki" power is self defeating.

I've read all the discussions about "aiki" power and agree with most of them so let's not beat a dead horse...If you need to go to a boxing or MMA class to learn how to "atemi" or Chinese IMA class to experiance "Aiki" by all means go. Make the use of all the best resources available to improve your Aikido. Nishio Ryu practitioners are encouraged to do this since and as far as I know O'Sensei never objected to it either...Aikido should go "back to the future" and include Aiki and should also improve it's syllabus and continue to evolve.

Your Aikido journey should be on the widest possible path of experience...

"In order for Aikido to be considered (a) budo it must be effective against other Martial Arts."-Shoji Nishio Shihan.

William Hazen

Hi William,

I agree with some of your points, especially your final quote :) . While I'm all for going outside the aikido establishment to get core aiki and power skills (as there are common baseline skills present in various Asian arts), when we talk about atemi-waza we're talking about techniques, and techniques tend to be bound by art (era-, place- and context-specific); thus my question: which atemi techniques to use in Aikido training? Any? Some? None? And most importantly, why?

Being reliant on disrupting an aikido "uke" with atemi is I must say (and again with respect) something I tend to question (I am not disregarding it, we often use it in our aikido training) as there is very little to no fighting back from uke's part in response to these atemi, not to mention I often see "atemi" as a scapegoat or default strategy to make up for lack of connection/aiki. Many times atemi is shown in aikido as a highly disruptive or "finisher" move, it assumes an uke being startled or undone by things than in other training paradigms or arts, well, it wouldn't happen (no matter how new age-y or purportedly badass any aikido style claims to be, the fact remains that it's still reliant on an uke-nage training paradigm and thus a limited test ground for technique or combat efficiency. Sure, Koryu has kata, but at least they are very specific about ate-waza. The how, when, where and why of ate-waza in koryu is well-documented, consistent and demonstrable, so introducing a "foreign" atemi waza would have to go through some rigorous scrutiny before being adopted -- not saying people in aikido aren't going through similar scrutiny when using atemi, I'm only looking for information regarding the theory behind it.

And not to beat a dead horse as you say, but I'd like to add that at the body level, some common uses of the arms, legs and hips when striking might actually run contrary and be counter-productive to certain aiki and power-building goals. So I htink it's very important to consider the howof atemi in aikido at the fundamental body level.

-Gerardo

Aikibu 04-23-2012 04:38 PM

Re: What is atemi really for?
 
Well... all our techniques start with Atemi...The principle is to end the fight as quickly as possible even before it really begins...Irimi begins with Atemi...All our techniques have atemi at every key point... again with the idea to give Uke the opportunity to stop fighting. I don't agree with any other form of Atemi that allows a fight to continue but if it does that is what techniques are for There are other uses for Atemi that have been mentioned "redirection" "taking Uke's center" blah blah blah...but they contradict our understanding of Aikido...You don't use Atemi to escalate an attack into a technique but to end it (or more aptly give Uke an opening to stop attacking).

Lets be clear...This does not mean that you're interested in destroying your opponent or achieving victory by vanquishing your attacker...You use it to give Uke the opportunity to stop fighting and thus restore "harmony".... and if Uke does not stop then you have a means to defend yourself and control uke with a technique.

Now with that being said That approach will not work unless your atemi is effective..period. This in my opinion is why Aiki is so damn important...Nothing ends a conflict faster than an atemi with Aiki or to see your attack go poof in the face of someone with Aiki Those with Aiki in my experience speed up the resolution of any conflict once attacked. I had a few folks with Aiki give me an atemi "love tap" over the years and I have to say there is no more effective method for ending a fight. LOL

Shoji Nishio studied Shindō jinen-ryū Karate so our atemi is meant to be "effective" our Aikido includes practicing a basic "striking kata" and a "kicking kata". Just go see some vids of Nishio Sensei on You Tube...Every technique starts the same way...

William Hazen

Kevin Leavitt 04-24-2012 03:21 AM

Re: What is atemi really for?
 
I think both William and Geraldo bring up some good points and I agree with things in both post. I think it depends on your perspective.

For me, I don't tie myself down to a particular paradigm if I can help it. That is, I don't believe in an "aiki" solution set, or a BJJ solution set...or any other training methodology.

Having spent a considerable amount of time with non-compliant training that was NOT incumbered by a particular practiciioner. For me, atemi is about gaining control of something gone bad.

If i'm hitting or punching you it is because I can't do something else. I like my hands and I like to be able to walk and move with my feet (mobility). if I'm hitting or striking, then I hurt my hands. If I am kicking I am sacrificing mobility.

However, if I am controlling, then is there really a need for atemi? so when am I hitting or kicking? when I can't do something else. So in alot of respects...for me, atemi represents failure or "fight gone bad".

I'm either closing distance with strikes, or I am creating distance with them. It depends on the situaiton. Or I am imposing my will in a very or whelming way to force you to submit cause I am at a loss for something else to control the fight and want to end it. (I prefer chokes). However, chokes require control and isolation.

You can bring up the whole IS/IT argument for sure. Yes, I see this as additive to power. More is better and the more I can reduce feedback of my opponent and increase my integrity the better.

That said, I agree, that having this capacity can improve your success rate, and it may allow you to NOT hit or kick possible.

that said, I don't necessarily see IS or Aiki as a solution set to the problem in it's entirety. You can have "aiki" and still have "fight gone bad".

So I don't really see where there is any debate over striking or not striking as far as aiki is related. If you are doing it, then you are doing it cause something is wrong with the situation.

Again, that said, hopefully "Aiki" might provide you an advantage since in theory (and practice) it affords you to mainatin or regain your integrity.

however, I think you can have Aiki, be able to demonstrate it in the dojo or clinic setting....yet still be a miserable failure martially if you don't practice fighting. So, I think there is much more to the discussion than an isolated discussion on the benefits of Aiki.

It is a catch 22 if you ask me.


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