Re: Osensei's Feet of Clay
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Note that Funakoshi Gichin wrote in the first edition of his karate manual that karate was a good implement for 'Japanese-ifying' conquered people. This seems to have actually happened in Korea. In a series of articles in the old Dragon Arts magazine, Robert Dohrenwend has pretty cleary showed that Tae Kwon Do is simply Shotokan Karate taught to the Koreans during the Japanese occupation, and obviously Korean kumdo is just Japanese kendo. So, this is what the future would have looked like with a triumphant Japan--we would all be doing martial arts--just as we're doing now!! |
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The fact that Osensei's teachings changed after the war is pretty profound. He may not have thrown his nefarious associates under the bus as we'd prefer from where we are, but I believe he really struggled with the issues of what was right, wrong, and a mistake. |
Re: Osensei's Feet of Clay
Perhaps he was just caught up in the thinking of the times just as many of the citizens were. With his associations with people in leadership positions, my thinking was that while he wasn't a prime mover, he helped forge the thinking. I suppose my real underlying question was did he change his thinking, or did he behave like a modern American politician and find a way of presenting himself in a better light? It doesn't matter much seventy years later I guess. What he transmitted in the post-war years is what we have to one extent or another. It doesn't appear that he was anything but a rather small cog in the Japanese war machine of the time. At least we have aikido today, regardless of what his real thinking was. And maybe he did change and maybe he did regret his earlier contributions and learned from them.
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I would call this a fault of Ueshiba for either not understanding how to create a system to pass his skills on, or not wanting to pass his skills on. This is essentially why I think chasing Ueshiba's skills directly is basically a cheeky endeavor. But the other thing to remember is that a thing like Ueshiba's skills, of which we have mostly biased first-hand accounts, is apt to be inflated in power and import over time. Ueshiba is literally a legend. |
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We can never truly know, certainly, but the more experienced I get, the more I understand principles, the more video I watch and then contrast and compare to old footage (particularly when slowed down to the correct speed), the more I am inclined to believe that Ueshiba's skill level, while very good, is highly exaggerated and has long since been surpassed, maybe even by a lot, by a number of people (and probably was even while he was still alive). And. Big deal. |
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Representation and leadership are not necessary conjoined traits. Nor are competence and management. I think part of this conversation concerns the dissolution of O Sensei as a ideological or moral idol. I think part of this conversation concerns the role of management of the aikikai and how the aikikai community veiled some aspects of O Sensei's life.
First, I think you have to separate O Sensei personally from aikido. I recall (but cannot recount where) several instances of his personally making a religious claim about himself and that personal claim was separate from a professional claim he made about aikido. Something like, "Aikido isn't a religion. I mean, sure, I am a living god and a religious zealot, but aikido isn't." Second, I think you have to separate O Sensei as a figurehead from O Sensei as a martial artist. I cannot imagine the political tightrope of the aikikai managing occupied Tokyo while being tied to a political person of interest. I think we built a figurehead beyond his capacity and now we have to deal with some measure of disillusionment as we realize he was not the person we romanticized. I think much of the romantic notion was designed upon a pseudo-religious cult conditioning and delivered with some propaganda attractive to the masses. All of this is probably at least helpful, if not productive, in re-examining O Sensei without the veil and re-examining some of his teachings without the religious perspective translated into the message. |
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And, more closely on-track: Quote:
I enjoyed HIPS and am looking forward to getting the 2nd edition of Dueling. But as of yet, I haven't read it, so maybe that is more called for than a reply here. But anyway: I thought I'd read interviews where folks suggest that he did become unhappy with the idea of promoting killing of the opponent during the war. Maybe in your view such comments are more wishful thinking than historically accurate? Sorry I can't find a citation. One thing I am excited about, regarding the contents of Dueling with O-sensei, is the possibility that he was not truly in favor of the war, but went along with it anyway because he felt he "had to" in some sense. For instance, in Chris' translation of this interview with Okumura: Quote:
But still, it is a possibility. I could see him going along with things, and maintaining friendships/associations that presented themselves, just because that's how the Kami willed things to happen. (Rather than because it is something he wished for.) |
Re: Osensei's Feet of Clay
My understanding of the Nakano Spy School situation is based on several things:
1. the accounts of the karateka - specifically Egami - they wanted Funakoshi Gigo to teach, and it was decided that "plausible deniability" was in order, so several of his disciples went instead. It was the Nakano schools decision. And actually, the Nakano school were far from the most violent minded. They actually had the ideal of minimal force for maximum effect - more similar to the American army's special forces. 2. Ueshiba did not retire at that time. He continued teaching at other military establishments for some time afterwards. 3. Yes, people said all kinds of things about Ueshiba's motivations, and interestingly, their Osensei conformed exactly to their own philosophy/worldview. 4. The assertion that Omoto-kyo was a peaceful/pacifist religion does not conform to the facts. They may not have wanted WWII, at least in the way it was prosecuted, but they very definitely were sponsors of terrorism, and fully involved with various war-supporting political factions. I can well believe that Ueshiba was in in favor of - or enthusiastic about WWII, as it developed. He well could have been bright enough to know that taking on the US was a loser's game. But as for Japan's taking over Manchuria? And other depredations in China? He was far too close to Okawa, the sponsor-and an intellectual creator- of such actions to assume he opposed them. |
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It is an interesting exercise from the point of view of learning to understand and see principles being demonstrated. The more time I spend training, the more cues I learn to pick up watching, feeling, discussing, and trying with my teachers, sempai, peers, and my own students. But it's off topic here, just my opinion, and the makings a of flame war. :p We're relatively local, maybe in person, at some clinic or pub somewhere, we can make these speculations with less of the above. But most specifically, I don't think it's very important except in the sense that building Ueshiba up is very important to some people's aikido practice and/or world view as if what they were pursuing was not otherwise worthy IN IT'S OWN RIGHT regardless of it's exact relation to what Ueshiba was saying or doing, except as a historical curiosity. I think being aware of more of Ueshiba's humanity doesn't take away from the message of modern aikido, but I know from that some people cannot stand the idea of their savior or avatar being human. I also think that was mostly his son's message and personal take on his father's life and message and that it probably evolved that way explicitly because of the way the world stage was playing out at the time, more than any other reason. Best, |
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You could be agreeing or disagreeing. Just out of curiosity, which is it? |
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Re: Osensei's Feet of Clay
Just as a heads-up, some posts in this thread have been deleted as they went against some of the points delineated in the "AikiWeb Rules of Conduct" announcement.
-- Jun |
Re: Osensei's Feet of Clay
Regarding the claims of fantastical abilities: I am willing to forgive O'Sensei for some of the things his students may have said about him because the bottom line is that when he was alive, he was more than willing to back things up in person. Please do not take this as a commentary on modern aikido! Seems like quite a few "Origin Stories" of some of the greats began with first-hand accounts of truly trying to test O'Sensei. I recently had a similar aikido experience with a certain instructor (who we just got word will be coming back to ATL in Jan. http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23008) <--(sales pitch;) ). I was always super curious to see how much of O'Sensei's purported skills could actually be done by a living human being, and I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised! Point is, I don't think it's necessarily fair to judge O'Sensei based on the stories people told about him. This is why I am so thankful for those with the expertise and generosity to dig through the historical records and parse out the fact from fiction.
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Tarik- I figured you might answer that way:cool:
I actually was going to PM not post, but then I thought, if he's going to post that comment to the public forum, then I'm going to follow up on the forum. Pushing the boundaries of the public forum is always good. Would love to meet up some day-- thinking about the Santa Cruz book celebrations. Ellis- Thanks for the clear reply, I understand and am with you regarding retrospective declarations of anti-war foresight and wishes. Looking forward to that 2nd edition! |
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Best regards, |
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On what basis do you make this statement? I have met Shihan who I would suggest had /have aiki . By the way what dojo do you practice in?I am originally from Glasgow[Brigton/Bridgeton.I started Aikido with Slim Coyle /George Girvan /Andy Henderson.Cheers, Joe. |
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Just checked out your profile.I note you train with Matt Holland. I have known him for donkeys years. We both trained with Slim Coyle . He continued training with Kanetsuka Sensei , I chose a different teacher.We have not met for a number of years.Tell him I was asking for him. Cheers, Joe. |
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