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akiy 01-25-2015 07:20 PM

YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
 


Here is an Aikido video of Christian Tissier (7th dan) teaching at Cercle Tissier in Vincennes, Paris in December, 2015. The video includes English subtitles when he is speaking in French.

What are your thoughts on this video?

-- Jun

Dan Richards 01-26-2015 01:41 AM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
 
Good to see fresh evolution in Tissier.

I particularly like his statement at 9:18: "Forget that you are aikidoka."

sakumeikan 01-27-2015 04:16 PM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
 
Quote:

Jun Akiyama wrote: (Post 341842)


Here is an Aikido video of Christian Tissier (7th dan) teaching at Cercle Tissier in Vincennes, Paris in December, 2015. The video includes English subtitles when he is speaking in French.

What are your thoughts on this video?

-- Jun

DearAll,
i consider the shiho nage shown here is potentially dange ous inasmuch Uke is receiving the waza in a manner that could easily damage his elbow/shoulder joint.Note Ukes elbow joint position. mid throw.I feel that there appears to be little regard shown by Tissier Sensei to this question of safety .Uke due to pressure on the elbow joint has to do in this situation an over the top ukemi. Looks good but is it necessary or required to hoist uke ?I think not.
Cheers,Joe.

Mary Eastland 01-30-2015 09:50 AM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
 
I agree, Joe. I also don't think that throwing hard demonstrates effective technique. I have always though he looks pretty muscly.

sakumeikan 01-30-2015 04:32 PM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
 
Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote: (Post 342013)
I agree, Joe. I also don't think that throwing hard demonstrates effective technique. I have always though he looks pretty muscly.

Dear Mary,
By all means throw a person, but I do not think using anybody as a crash test dummy or a bit of human cannon fodder is the way to go.If one wishes to be capable of doing aikido for decades you have to take care of your body.i had been hoisted around in my day, but my joints are now a bit suspect.your body has to last you a lifetime, why let anybody subject your body to undue stress?
Could it be showmanship, a bit of look how good I am???Hope all is well, with you,Joe

MRoh 01-31-2015 03:02 AM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
 
Quote:

Joe Curran wrote: (Post 341890)
DearAll,
i consider the shiho nage shown here is potentially dange ous inasmuch Uke is receiving the waza in a manner that could easily damage his elbow/shoulder joint.Note Ukes elbow joint position. mid throw.I feel that there appears to be little regard shown by Tissier Sensei to this question of safety .Uke due to pressure on the elbow joint has to do in this situation an over the top ukemi. Looks good but is it necessary or required to hoist uke ?I think not.
Cheers,Joe.

I think its totally harmless if uke is relaxed, and there is not much pressure in the elbow.
There were others who threw even worse. Uke had to jump high to prevent fractures.
Tissiers way of throwing has more a leading charakter, it's actually soft.

sakumeikan 01-31-2015 06:12 AM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
 
Quote:

Markus Rohde wrote: (Post 342022)
I think its totally harmless if uke is relaxed, and there is not much pressure in the elbow.
There were others who threw even worse. Uke had to jump high to prevent fractures.
Tissiers way of throwing has more a leading charakter, it's actually soft.

Dear Markus,
You may we ll be right Tissier Senseis waza might be soft.Then again how do you define soft?Not only that some person watching Tissier Sensei might not be so soft in an application.I still say the vid shows potential for elbow damage.Ony art 2.51 approx does he do a Shiho Nage which I think is safe .Most of the others are elbow breakers.Why do you think Uke jumps? Cheers, Joe.

sorokod 01-31-2015 06:52 AM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
 
On these "unsafe" Shihonages, the uke's other hand is free to strike. In the video the uke's are careful to keep that hand "dead", not to show the reversal.

MRoh 01-31-2015 07:28 AM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
 
Quote:

Joe Curran wrote: (Post 342023)
Most of the others are elbow breakers

Shiho nage was created for breaking elbows.
If you cannot see this any more, it's no shiho nage.
But I never heard about that Tissier broke any elbow. There were others who damged people.

Quote:

Joe Curran wrote: (Post 342023)
Why do you think Uke jumps?

Tissier talks about that.
But it's ok for a skilled uke to be thrown like that, because he is able to protect himself. If he couldn't do, Tissier wouldn't throw him like that.
It's about being not afraid and keeping the body relaxed. For me it's an important part of the development in Aikido.

sorokod 01-31-2015 09:17 AM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
 
Quote:

Markus Rohde wrote: (Post 342027)
Shiho nage was created for breaking elbows.
If you cannot see this any more, it's no shiho nage.

You will need to re-send your memo to this guy.

Alex Megann 01-31-2015 09:53 AM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
 
Quote:

David Soroko wrote: (Post 342029)
You will need to re-send your memo to this guy.

… and this finish might look familiar too…



Actually Tissier's shihonage is quite different from the way I have seen his teacher, Seigo Yamaguchi, do it.

Alex

sorokod 01-31-2015 10:05 AM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
 
Quote:

Alex Megann wrote: (Post 342031)
… and this finish might look familiar too…



Actually Tissier's shihonage is quite different from the way I have seen his teacher, Seigo Yamaguchi, do it.

Alex

Very nice photo.

Where did Yamaguchi get his Aikido from?

MRoh 01-31-2015 10:36 AM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
 
Quote:

David Soroko wrote: (Post 342029)
You will need to re-send your memo to this guy.

That's one way to perform shihonage.
But this "guy" was a daito-ryu guy, so he must have known this:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WrcJgYKDJUw

sorokod 01-31-2015 10:41 AM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
 
Quote:

Markus Rohde wrote: (Post 342034)
That's one way to perform shihonage.
But this "guy" was a daito-ryu guy, so he must have known this:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WrcJgYKDJUw

Very likely- how is this relevant to your statement about shihonage ?

MRoh 01-31-2015 11:09 AM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
 
Quote:

David Soroko wrote: (Post 342035)
Very likely- how is this relevant to your statement about shihonage ?

Listen to what Kondo Sensei explains from 2:00.

The technique was designed to break the joints immediately. Normally ther was no chance given for ukemi.

Before it came to the position you see on the Ueshiba-photo, in daito-ryu the breaking movement was implied.

oisin bourke 01-31-2015 11:27 AM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
 
Quote:

Markus Rohde wrote: (Post 342034)
That's one way to perform shihonage.
But this "guy" was a daito-ryu guy, so he must have known this:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WrcJgYKDJUw

That is jujutsu level shiho nage. In Daito ryu Advanced level is absolutely not about breaking or stressing joints.

sorokod 01-31-2015 11:30 AM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
 
But you do see that in the photo, the founder of the martial art of Aikido is doing shihonage differently from what Kondo demonstrates.

For whatever it's worth, this is also the way basic shihonage was taught by Saito sensei.

oisin bourke 01-31-2015 11:50 AM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
 
Quote:

David Soroko wrote: (Post 342038)
But you do see that in the photo, the founder of the martial art of Aikido is doing shihonage differently from what Kondo demonstrates.

For whatever it's worth, this is also the way basic shihonage was taught by Saito sensei.

Yes, I've trained with people in that lineage, and I'm familiar with it. It is closer to what I am talking about than what is shown by either kondo or Tissier in their videos. The pin by Ueshiba is pretty classic aikijujutsu, too, At the advanced level, shiho nage should be impossible to take ukemi from (in the sense of flipping out of it). There should also be no strain on the joints.

MRoh 01-31-2015 04:00 PM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
 
Quote:

David Soroko wrote: (Post 342038)

For whatever it's worth, this is also the way basic shihonage was taught by Saito sensei.

I have no problem with this basic form of shiho nage, but we practice both.

MRoh 01-31-2015 04:02 PM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
 
Deleted

sorokod 01-31-2015 04:21 PM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
 
Quote:

Oisin Bourke wrote: (Post 342040)
Yes, I've trained with people in that lineage, and I'm familiar with it. It is closer to what I am talking about than what is shown by either kondo or Tissier in their videos. The pin by Ueshiba is pretty classic aikijujutsu, too, At the advanced level, shiho nage should be impossible to take ukemi from (in the sense of flipping out of it). There should also be no strain on the joints.

Never in the many, many times I have seen shihonage demonstrated, was any part of it called "aiki jujitsu". We just practice the form that was taught by Saito sensei as it was taught to him by the founder.

sorokod 01-31-2015 04:30 PM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
 
Quote:

Markus Rohde wrote: (Post 342047)
I have no problem with this basic form of shiho nage, but we practice both.

Why only two variants? I am sure there are many other ways of doing shihonage like waza, why not practice them as well?

Carsten Möllering 01-31-2015 11:58 PM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
 
Saito Hitohiro sensei: shiho nage.

MRoh 02-01-2015 03:32 AM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
 
Quote:

David Soroko wrote: (Post 342052)
Why only two variants? I am sure there are many other ways of doing shihonage like waza, why not practice them as well?

Yes of course, but here were discussed mainly two.

sakumeikan 02-01-2015 04:15 AM

Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
 
Quote:

Markus Rohde wrote: (Post 342027)
Shiho nage was created for breaking elbows.
If you cannot see this any more, it's no shiho nage.
But I never heard about that Tissier broke any elbow. There were others who damged people.

Tissier talks about that.
But it's ok for a skilled uke to be thrown like that, because he is able to protect himself. If he couldn't do, Tissier wouldn't throw him like that.
It's about being not afraid and keeping the body relaxed. For me it's an important part of the development in Aikido.

Dear Markus,

Taking your viewpoint to the extreme if Shiho Nage was developed to break elbows why not do this currently to students?I do not think any uke would appreciate a broken elbow.Our Health Cetres would be overwhelmed .Its not about being afraid or relaxed its about teachers using common sense and safe practice.If Tissier or anbody else took a beginner and threw him like shown would the junior survive? I think not. Cheers, Joe.


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