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sorokod 11-10-2011 07:45 AM

The Truth about Violence
 
I had two thoughts as I was reading this blog

1. This makes a lot of sense
2. I am very glad not to live in the USA

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/t...bout-violence/

Cliff Judge 11-10-2011 08:04 AM

Re: The Truth about Violence
 
Quote:

David Soroko wrote: (Post 296437)
I had two thoughts as I was reading this blog

1. This makes a lot of sense
2. I am very glad not to live in the USA

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/t...bout-violence/

Wasn't there a bunch of riots and stuff all over the UK a couple of months ago....?

sorokod 11-10-2011 08:14 AM

Re: The Truth about Violence
 
Quote:

Cliff Judge wrote: (Post 296439)
Wasn't there a bunch of riots and stuff all over the UK a couple of months ago....?

There was, and not far from where live too. Had a different vibe to it though.

mathewjgano 11-10-2011 01:21 PM

Re: The Truth about Violence
 
Quote:

David Soroko wrote: (Post 296437)
I had two thoughts as I was reading this blog

1. This makes a lot of sense
2. I am very glad not to live in the USA

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/t...bout-violence/

We do have a Wild West cultural underpinning to a lot over here...not that there aren't plenty of similar expressions of aggression everywhere else. Next watch several episodes of Gangland! Thug Life is alive and well in da hood; which now spreads out to da 'burbs, thanks to pop culture. Still, much of that is a matter of "avoiding dangerous people," and knowing something about how not to look like easy prey. A lot of it is pretty easy stuff once we're made aware of it. Two things I always track are the eyes and the hands. They generally seem to be good indicators of where a person's mind is at. Body language cues seem to be something many people pay little attention to.

sorokod 11-10-2011 02:10 PM

Re: The Truth about Violence
 
I find "Do not defend your property" striking especially because it follows logically from the basic premise.

Janet Rosen 11-10-2011 02:34 PM

Re: The Truth about Violence
 
Totally a case of YMMV: there are neighborhoods in most cities that are pretty much battle zones. And L.A. is its own weird world with that helicopter LE culture - I so could not live in that.
But I lived 19 years in New York City and over 35 years in San Francisco. Now I live in a small town in a rural area, but drunkenness, petty crime and meth are as rife here as anyplace.
In all these years, I was mugged once, at age 15 AND with my boyfriend present; my cars broken into twice; my homes one attempted burglary.
Lest you think I have led a sheltered life, I started riding NYC buses and subways alone and going to parks, museums, etc alone at age 13. The last 2 yrs I was in NY I routinely rode subways alone between 10 pm and midnight.
I deterred potential muggers at least a couple of times I know of both in NY and SF by simple body language and have no idea how many times w/o being aware of it. I did middle of the night street patrols in the Haight Ashbury in the mid70s when it was a pretty blighted area and did fine. I had a knife aimed on me once, besides the above-referenced mugging, when I triangulated between the junkie holding the knife and a coworker who had stupidly called him out as a liar (the coworker fled into the office, leaving me to de-escalate the guy on the street, which I was succesfully doing when other coworkers pulled up in a truck - & never ever spoke a word to that asshole coworker again). I've broken up fights when it seemed the right/safe thing to do, chased people off my neighbors' roofs and my back steps, etc...And in all those decades all but one of the shootings I've witnessed was by LEOs and the only time I've had guns pulled on me has been by LEOs.

graham christian 11-10-2011 04:00 PM

Re: The Truth about Violence
 
Ha, ha. Here's a point worth considering in my view. Everyone want's to think it's worse 'over there' It itself gives them a false sense of security.

The point of all martial arts in my opinion is building that thing that is the main enemy of violence, self confidence.

You start with self, with the person. Not with how to be scared and rely on walls and barred windows and look how dangerous everything is. Wrong path.

Regards.G.

Kevin Leavitt 11-10-2011 04:35 PM

Re: The Truth about Violence
 
Quote:

David Soroko wrote: (Post 296441)
There was, and not far from where live too. Had a different vibe to it though.

yea total anarchy and breakdown in basic society does have a different vibe to it.

sorokod 11-10-2011 05:46 PM

Re: The Truth about Violence
 
Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote: (Post 296481)
yea total anarchy and breakdown in basic society does have a different vibe to it.

Regardless, the articles is well worth reading I think.

genin 11-11-2011 06:53 AM

Re: The Truth about Violence
 
Good article. He reiterates what most of us already know. Which is that violence should always be avoided if possible. He then goes on to describe many different scenarios, but all of which the underlying goal is the same--protect yourself by avoiding or escaping violent situations.

Most violent crime victims could easily have avoided it, with a little common sense and foresight. Women who choose to be in relationships with abusive and violent men, should expect the relationship to eventually end violently. The sketchy guys that hang out outside the Circle K all night, probably will eventually find themselves on one side or the other of a violent encounter. But how easy is it to simply avoid these people and these situations? It should be fairly simple. I'd even go as far as to say that 90% of violent situations could be avoided simply by not hanging around stupid people and losers.

Belt_Up 11-11-2011 02:58 PM

Re: The Truth about Violence
 
Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote: (Post 296481)
yea total anarchy and breakdown in basic society does have a different vibe to it.

Made me spit my tea out. Classic.

Quote:

I'd even go as far as to say that 90% of violent situations could be avoided simply by not hanging around stupid people and losers.
Oh dear. Completely imaginary statistics. Why are they so popular?

genin 11-11-2011 03:05 PM

Re: The Truth about Violence
 
Quote:

Geoff Byers wrote: (Post 296616)
Oh dear. Completely imaginary statistics. Why are they so popular?

Probably should've said "a majority" rather than giving a percentage. Sort of like saying that nine out of ten times you'll find this to be true.

Kevin Leavitt 11-11-2011 04:30 PM

Re: The Truth about Violence
 
Quote:

Roger Flatley wrote: (Post 296546)
Good article. He reiterates what most of us already know. Which is that violence should always be avoided if possible. He then goes on to describe many different scenarios, but all of which the underlying goal is the same--protect yourself by avoiding or escaping violent situations.

Most violent crime victims could easily have avoided it, with a little common sense and foresight. Women who choose to be in relationships with abusive and violent men, should expect the relationship to eventually end violently. The sketchy guys that hang out outside the Circle K all night, probably will eventually find themselves on one side or the other of a violent encounter. But how easy is it to simply avoid these people and these situations? It should be fairly simple. I'd even go as far as to say that 90% of violent situations could be avoided simply by not hanging around stupid people and losers.

Its not that simple. You are wrong IMO about women in abusive relationships. The situations are not that simple. They don't go into those relationships to get abused, nor should they expect it, and they don't see that it will end violently. Domestic violence is not that simple.

All of us as prone to violence and sometimes it is not avoidable. I,ve turned the wrong corner a few times in a strange town. Broken down in the wrong area. These things happen. And it is not simply that easy to avoid it all the time.

genin 11-15-2011 06:17 AM

Re: The Truth about Violence
 
Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote: (Post 296638)
Its not that simple. You are wrong IMO about women in abusive relationships. The situations are not that simple. They don't go into those relationships to get abused, nor should they expect it, and they don't see that it will end violently. Domestic violence is not that simple.

All of us as prone to violence and sometimes it is not avoidable. I,ve turned the wrong corner a few times in a strange town. Broken down in the wrong area. These things happen. And it is not simply that easy to avoid it all the time.

We usually don't seek out undesireable situations--we find ourselves in them. A person doesn't seek an abusive partner, and you don't set out to get lost in the hood. But you may still find yourself lost one day, or with a violent partner.

It should be a matter of realizing in a split second "Holy crap, I'm lost!" or "Oh no, my boyfriend is a nutjob!" A keen mind is all that is needed to make that determination. If you find yourself getting lost everyday on the way home from work and you have to battle your way back out of the hood, then that isn't a reflection of the dangers of violence in our daily life. It's a reflection of poor judgment and bad decision making.

SeiserL 11-15-2011 08:14 AM

Re: The Truth about Violence
 
Quote:

Roger Flatley wrote: (Post 296907)
We usually don't seek out undesireable situations--we find ourselves in them.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

If I find myself in the same parking lot more than once, I just might be driving there.

We may not consciously seek out certain situations, but unconsciously they agree with us and are familiar.

If we just find ourselves in them - perhaps we are not looking soon enough or deep enough?

If we are looking for the truth about violence - perhaps we need only look into our own minds and hearts?

Thoughts?

genin 11-15-2011 09:00 AM

Re: The Truth about Violence
 
Quote:

Lynn Seiser wrote: (Post 296913)
If we just find ourselves in them - perhaps we are not looking soon enough or deep enough?

If we are looking for the truth about violence - perhaps we need only look into our own minds and hearts?

Thoughts?

I agree that we must look inside ourselves to determine what attracts us to painful/dangerous situations. Low self-worth and chidhood abuse may be reasons that draw a domestic violence victim to abusive people. Sheer stupidity may be the reason why some put themselves in what would otherwise be easily avoidable predicaments, like fighting with drunken people inside or outside of bars and clubs.

But I say this from the perspective of an adult with martial training and experience. I know that when I was younger, violent situations seemed to occur for me more frequently. Maybe I was less apt to identify them back then, or perhaps I attracted violence by coming across as an easy target. Once I resolved to remove myself from questionable people and places, and let it be known that I would defend myself violently if needed, I never again became the victim of violence. I think that introspection might be your best tool to avoid violence, as it is YOU who ultimately controls where you go and how you respond to situations.

TimB99 11-15-2011 09:30 AM

Re: The Truth about Violence
 
http://www.lowtechcombat.com/2010/03...ight-most.html

http://www.lowtechcombat.com/2010/12...ime-in-us.html

http://www.lowtechcombat.com/2010/11...et-fights.html

Might be interesting...

Kevin Leavitt 11-15-2011 10:29 AM

Re: The Truth about Violence
 
Some good people are just simply in bad situations that they cannot get themselves out of. They are born into it. They have become Co dependent for whatever reason and it is not out of stupidity or lack of desire to not be in those situations.

There are many good people in the world that need help and support to get out of the violent situations they are in. They did nothing necessarily wrong or made a bad choice. They simply are where they are for a multitude of reasons.

Compassionate individuals are needed to not judge this folks, but to be there for them. To help them find their way and to help them find hope and strength.

genin 11-15-2011 11:28 AM

Re: The Truth about Violence
 
Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote: (Post 296927)
Some good people are just simply in bad situations that they cannot get themselves out of. They are born into it. They have become Co dependent for whatever reason and it is not out of stupidity or lack of desire to not be in those situations.

There are many good people in the world that need help and support to get out of the violent situations they are in. They did nothing necessarily wrong or made a bad choice. They simply are where they are for a multitude of reasons.

Compassionate individuals are needed to not judge this folks, but to be there for them. To help them find their way and to help them find hope and strength.

People who are placed into unavoidable violent situations are one thing, but people who end up there through their own bad choices are another. What I took from Harris' blog, was that violence should always be avoided, and for the most part, can be. All it takes is a basic understanding of human nature and practical knowledge of conflict resolution.

Kevin Leavitt 11-15-2011 12:43 PM

Re: The Truth about Violence
 
I agree thathere are people that look and seek violence for sure. I would not go so far as to say violence should always be avoided. At some point and in some circumstances some times it is important to make a stand and face violence and stop it. So i would not go so far as to say it should always be avoided.

There are some very bad people in the world that simply donot care that others want a peaceful existence and will not stop and reason with you. At some point violence must be stopped.

Kevin Leavitt 11-15-2011 01:18 PM

Re: The Truth about Violence
 
alsI disagree with Harris advice on fighting to escape. It might be semantics, but I can't figure out how you do this. Either you are fighting for your life or you are not. There is no middle ground of control where you can fight to escape. I think what he may mean is use minimal force necessary. However that is a different paradigm in my mind than fighting to escape.

If you are losing the fight, then you are fighting to gain control and dominate your opponent. If you are in control, then you are in control it is really a black or white issue.

Of course there are situations where it makes sense to make for a door or secure area, and,maybe this is what he is referring to. However that comes once you have the space and control to disengag. Until that point you are fighting to win and not to escape.

It might seem like a small point, but to me it KS important to make sure you understand what it is that u are doing while in the fight.

Going back to Hariss' avoidance theme...I think a better term is passive measures. There are lots of passive measures you can take to mitigate potential risk. This to me is not avoidance, but mitigation. Good locks, lighting, avoiding bad areas, walking with a buddy fall into passive measures. You are not avoiding violence, but mitigating it.

Splitting hairs? Maybe, but to me it is an important perspective and not just words.

genin 11-15-2011 01:41 PM

Re: The Truth about Violence
 
I don't think violence should be avoided at all costs (in the pacifist sense), but it should be avoided if possible as a general rule of thumb.

Maybe the distinction between avoidance and mitigation is that you can avoid some situations altogher, but those you can't, you will have to find a way to mitigate the danger through passive measures.

SeiserL 11-15-2011 01:43 PM

Re: The Truth about Violence
 
Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote: (Post 296927)
Compassionate individuals are needed to not judge this folks, but to be there for them. To help them find their way and to help them find hope and strength.

Yes agreed.

Many are ignorant of the familial and social patterns that were indoctrinated into and facilitate and perpetuate without knowing it.

Judgement never works to change a situation.

It takes compassion and courage to to face a conflict and conquer it.

We never do this alone.

SeiserL 11-15-2011 01:47 PM

Re: The Truth about Violence
 
Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote: (Post 296951)
There are some very bad people in the world that simply donot care that others want a peaceful existence and will not stop and reason with you. At some point violence must be stopped.

Yes agreed.

And for some to be peaceful, others may have to be violent.

While in the long run, violence is seldom a long term solutions (since it usually breeds more violence), unfortunately often in the short term situation violence cannot be avoided. Then it is only a question of who is better trained.

SeiserL 11-15-2011 01:57 PM

Re: The Truth about Violence
 
Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote: (Post 296954)
You are not avoiding violence, but mitigating it.

Yes agreed (again).

Some hairs need to be split and some semantics corrected to direct our interpretation and focus.

IMHO, we usually respond with fight, flight, or freeze.

Avoidance is fear based and can create a chase mentality in situational and opportunistic predators.

Perhaps "mitigating" is flowing (enter and blend) by seeing the big situational picture through strategic (not just tactical) eyes and minimize the potential and possibilities beforehand, and then manage/"mitigate" what is unavoidable?

Thoughts?


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