Re: Fingers spread or together?
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Your previous post mentioned instructors who recommend a method that is at odds with what the founder of our art, his teacher, his contemporaries and some of his most skilled students had to say on the subject. From the aikido perspective, it would probably behoove us all to listen to them as some of these seemingly small things are integral to the art in ways that most of us simply didn't get. I'm sure broken fingers happen in mma. I'd be surprised if they didn't, though I don't recall ever seeing it happen in matches and I've watched many. I know they are more common in judo and bjj from getting caught in the gi, but that's also in situations that aren't quite fighting but are far more "alive" than what were going to encounter in most any aikido dojo. I've seen a few "real fights" in my day. Lots of grabbing, shoving and whatnot, using their hands like hands, fingers exposed like in normal daily life and I've never seen a broken finger, but that is purely anecdotal. So IMO your concerns are unfounded, but again that's just my opinion. I don't train fighting, just good hard physically trained aikido that has and hopefully will continue to serve me if needed. The fingers have never popped onto the radar for me as a concern, but I've trained that we for some time. Ymmv. |
Re: Fingers spread or together?
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personally, i go for the eagle claw approach. worked great in the buffet line. |
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In terms of all the big names giving that direction to spread fingers, and all the video showing them doing it, I don't dispute it. But what I have yet to hear is WHY (emphasis, not yelling) they do/say it. I know it is not very "Japanese" to ask "why" when given direction, but I'm not Japanese..... What I am is a scientist/engineer looking for a solid mechanical explanation. The only one I have heard given (not on this thread) is that it increases the diameter of your wrist and somehow this creates a better/more advantageous connection with uke when grabbed. I've experimented with this and it doesn't hold water for me. Perhaps someone can elaborate... Regards, Jim |
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Best, Chris |
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"If you tense up the arm, you are tightening both sets of muscles, the triceps and the biceps. The triceps are trying to keep the arm straight, the biceps are trying to bend it. When someone attempts to bend your arm they have a secret, unwitting ally in your biceps. Of course they can bend it, your biceps are inadvertently helping. When you stop tensing and use the Ki metaphor, you only use the triceps, and you're not fighting yourself. You become stronger, much stronger. " http://brucetholmes.com/Movement/Aikido.html |
Re: Fingers spread or together?
IMO, to spread or open the fingers is really dependent on what it is you are trying to accomplish. If I am going to strike, then they are closed - if I am not striking, then they are generally spread open.
Spreading the fingers helps to establish a 'live hand' in aiki arts, and as in all aiki, there is a mental and a physical component. The mental/intent/ki part has already been talked about. Aiki is all about making internal connections without muscle tension and that is accomplished via the fascia mostly - Spreading the fingers without muscle tension helps take the slack out the tendons, ligament, and fascia. Essentially, it helps you maintain a whole body connection where you can absorb and control energy from uke. Of course, this can be accomplished without spreading the fingers, but only after you have trained enough to have established a connected body, but your hands will be dead and useless for aiki in that case. One other note, any muscle tension used to keep the fingers open or closed will stop the flow of energy in the areas with tensioned muscle; this will inhibit a whole body connection and the development of aiki as well. Greg ps: I see a couple of post above came in while I was composing with some of my points already covered :) |
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beg a question, when you strike, palm or fist (knuckles)? |
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However most adversaries won't have enough presence to take advantage of taking hold one of your fingers and break it. The typical way of hurting yourself can happen, anyway, also with tightly closed fingers: a fist. You throw it, and you hurt an object instead of your adversary and you get a broken knuckle, a broken thumb, or a mild cut that anyway, being the anatomical (if that's the correct spelling in English) structures so superficial, cuts one of your tendons and makes part of your hand/fingers unusuable, normally in extension (that is: you cannot open it anymore, involving one or more fingers). |
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Best, Jim |
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Best, Chris |
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Greg |
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Have you ever tried to train dressed as if you were in a normal situation, with your jacket on?
Your finger(s) may get trapped in your own pockets... |
Re: Fingers spread or together?
Interesting!
First I learned to spread the fingers. Intent was a better flow of ki. I now learn to always relax shoulder, ellbow, wrist, hand, fingers ... to create a better connection to the body. (It's smilar to the feeling when practicing qi gong or something like that.) Endo sensei often explicetly teaches to use the arms this way, to not spread the fingers, but to relax them and to relax also the wrist. When grabbing, we use lao gong to connect. So wrist and fingers have to be relaxed to make connection. When being grabbed we use the feeling/kimochi/energy/whatever you name it, doesn't work through the fingers, but from my arm into the grabbing hand (maybe lao gong there). So wrist and fingers have to be relaxed to make connection. (just to add: Endo does never use the term "lao gong" but just talks of the "palms".) |
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The only teacher who I have heard mention "lao gong" is Kanetsuka Sensei, though I don't know where he originally learned about it. He has talked about the connection between the point between the base of your thumb and base of forefinger (is that what Endo means by it?) and the hara - it seems that according to Chinese medicine there is a strong connection between the two. He also describes the correct sword grip as one where the lao gong is lined up with the top of the sword, and this way power is most efficiently delivered to the cut. Incidentally, I remember Endo Sensei talking eight or nine years or so about controlling your partner's thumb through their grip, which I have thought about a lot since then. I wonder whether that is a lao gong thing too. Alex |
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It is when you do something like nei gong (in my case) or talk ot someone who skilled in the chinese arts ... you come to realize, that Endo talks about using the laogong point. If you look for "laogong" or Pericardium 8 (P8) you will easily find the point and descriptions where it is and what it is. (I myself locate it at the center of my palm.) And yes, it is one of the most important points. But again: Endo sensei does not speak about the "inner aspects" of this point. At least not during open seminars. He just teaches it to be technically usefull and how use the body to get the most out of it. Knowing, that Endo understands aikidō as dao, listening carefully to his words and also knowing also, that he has some experience in doing tai chi I am sure he shows using laogong without refering to it. Interesting enough that a lot of his students end up doing some daostic practice. Quote:
In this video you can get at glimpse of the use of the thumb "when uke is holding strongly". And the connection through ukes laogong point "if your partner is holding lightly". (This is not comprehensiv, just to get a little impression.) The use of the thumb, or to be more precise of the thumb basal joint, is - as far as I see - not "connected to daositic practice" or using an energy point but just using a technicall posibility of the human body. As you see both ways to connect to uke and to move him are still important in Endo's aikidō. |
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Thanks for your fascinating thoughts. It really is about time I went to see Endo Sensei again... Alex |
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...as per Doshu and his favourite Uke, Horii shihan:
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This reminds me of a quote from a project manager at my old engineering job. When part of the project was falling behind, the team was directed to "concentrate their resources" on that part to get it back on schedule. A couple of months passed and we met again with status reports. The part that was behind and in fact a little bit ahead of schedule, while other parts of the project had moved ahead a little slower than previously. The manager was very excited about the progress we had made on the task that had been behind schedule (completely ignoring the other parts of the project). His comment was that we should "concentrate our resources on EVERYTHING" and then we could all get ahead of schedule..... Hmmm, wait, that doesn't work. There's only so much effort to go around and if you spread it over all directions, less goes into your intended target. This is exactly what I'm talking about on this issue. I still think the tea ceremony post put it best about aligning fingers along the arm to unify intent.... I'm looking forward to seeing more posts..... |
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