Aikido - Is there Randori? Is Aikido a Workout?
 

Hello,

My name is Alex, I'm new to the forum and wanted to ask a couple of questions on Aikido.
First off, I'm a brown belt in Judo who will be moving soon. I found a Judo dojo in the city I plan to move to, but it only has class once a week. In an effort to fill in more nights I looked for more dojos. I found Brazilian Jujitsu, which isn't too far off from Judo and inquired about their schedule. They have class often, but make you sign a year long contract to pay $100/month... So, I continued my search and came across an Aikido dojo. They offer a decent amount of classes and at a very reasonable price. I have been researching Aikido a little since then and from what I've seen, it's similar to Judo in many ways. I am pretty much sold on the art, but I wanted to know if there was any sort of Randori (free practice) in Aikido. That was probably my favorite part of Judo, it allowed me to practice my techniques and increase my endurance. Is Aikido more like Tai Chi, or can I get a bit of a workout from it? I'm sold either way, but I'm trying to get my roommate interested as well. Thanks

Re: Aikido Randori
 

There is variation dojo to dojo whether or not they do randori and how much of a high energy workout you will get - so I suggest you visit and watch a class then ask questions!

Re: Aikido Randori
 

Shodokan Aikido was founded by Tomiki Sensei who was a student of Kano Sensei and O'Sensei. You might be more comfortable with Shodokan Aikido.

http://www.tomiki.org/tomikiaikido.html

http://www.tomiki.org/members.html

"Tomiki Sensei's second major borrowing from Judo, and one which has unfortunately been misunderstood, was randori and shiai."

from;

http://www.tomiki.org/rules.html

David

Re: Aikido Randori
 

To make a gross over-generalisation, I would say that 'yes', you will have the opportunity to work up a sweat and participate in randori. It may not be straight away, but your Judo ability will probably help speed things up there.

But that will all depend on the individual dojo, as Janet has stated.

Is there more than one dojo in the area? As a judoka, you may appreciate a dojo that trains in Tomiki Aikido.

Re: Aikido Randori
 

You must check out the school. They may do randori and yet it might not look like what you would call randori. They may not do any free practice at all. As others have said it depends.

Re: Aikido - Is there Randori? Is Aikido a Workout?
 

Wow!

That is interesting again:
In most aikido-dojo or schools I know there is no randori like in judo. So you are lucky, I think!

Here there is jiyu waza against one or more than one attackers. But that means you work with a determined form of attack.

There may also be free work where no special attack is determined. But this form of practice is most often only done by higher grades from sandan up.

But at least the role of attacker and defnder is always set. Sure we do counters and change roles this way.
But in the beginning the roles are set.

There is almost no Tomiki aikido in continental Europe, but I think even their forms of randori they have uke and nage?

So in my experience I have to say:
NO, there is no randor in aikido.
And if this was your favorite part in judo (which it is for a lot of judoka) you would miss it much in (our) aikido (here in Europe) (like most judoka do, when trying aikido).

Ok, but I understand in the US you have randori in aikido dojo. So enjoy!
The workout will be the same as in judo.

Carsten

Re: Aikido - Is there Randori? Is Aikido a Workout?
 

Hi Alex,

I've trained in Judo quite a bit and hold dank rank in both Aikido and Jujutsu.

To be clear - what we refer to as randori in Judo is not done in most Aikido. One of the primary differences is that most Aikido schools do not engage in randori where the role of Uke and Tori/Nage does not exist, and where two people are going all out trying to get technique to work with both persons being allowed to try as much as possible to stop or counter the other.

If you want this sort of experience you have to do Shodokan Aikido which has a competitive aspect along Judo lines and has a randori method like Judo where both participants are allowed to resist and counter techniques at will at full force if necessary. I am not sure of any other Aikido method that removes the Uke/Tori relationship in this manner. The difference to Judo randori is the longer ma ai which negates the foot sweeps and hip throws, forcing one to use only joint locks, strikes and throws using total body coordination.

Of course there are many other benefits to training in Aikido outside of randori, but if you want something similar to how its done in Judo you will most likely only find it in Shodokan. Unfortunately we are not everywhere so I'd suggest you take a look at the sites given by David above - www.tomiki.org is the best place for you to look if you are in the U.S.

I hope you find what you are looking for.

Best
LC

Re: Aikido - Is there Randori? Is Aikido a Workout?
 

Actually this is incorrect.

Please see the Wikipedia entry here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shodokan_Aikido .

There is a listing of dojo in France, Spain and Switzerland. The Georgian Federation is also not listed. The U.K. has a very large Shodokan presence but is not continental Europe. Belgium also has a good group - you can find them in this list - http://tomiki-aikido.wikispaces.com/...inental+Europe

For your information.

LC

Re: Aikido - Is there Randori? Is Aikido a Workout?
 

I think that if you want to systematically train for aerobic fitness, you're better off not counting on aikido to do it. In partner practice you can often get a good head of steam going simply by getting up as quickly as you can after taking ukemi, but you can't count on your partner being able to train as fast as you want, and your practice is periodically interrupted when sensei wants to demonstrate a new technique or illustrate a point. For aerobic fitness, I'd seek an outside activity where you can exercise continuously at whatever level will give you a training effect.

Re: Aikido - Is there Randori? Is Aikido a Workout?
 

Alex, what city are you moving to?

There are Shodokan dojo in North Carolina, but not listed in the TAA website..

Eric Townsend Sensei at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill campus. erik_townsend@hotmail.com

Hope this helps you.

Train well,

Mickey

Re: Aikido - Is there Randori? Is Aikido a Workout?
 

If you trained in Shodokan Aikido you will find out it is a lot more aerobic than mainstream Aikido.

Like hopscotch, rope jumping, etc.



David

Re: Aikido - Is there Randori? Is Aikido a Workout?
 

I get a work out most classes in my dojo. I think it depends on the dojo, the training environment and also your partner. Most of my partners feel free to toss me around and I hop back up for more. I think sensei likes using me partially because of that. You can make it more active just by making sure your moving. If your working with a beginner, obviously things will be slowed down. If cardio is your main goal though, I think you may find better results elsewhere. HOWEVER, if you are interested in aikido I think you will get some decent cardio. Go check out your local dojo and pick one that caters more to what you are looking for.

Re: Aikido - Is there Randori? Is Aikido a Workout?
 

LOL What I'm in the same federation you are, I thought?
I lost almost 45 pounds in the first year and a half of Aikido training.
I find my aerobic endurance is better than my fiance, and he's a runner.(I HATE running :( )

Aikido is my only source of exercise. I've kept myself at a healthy body weight, and have toned up more doing it.
other than a slipped disc in my back, I'm in pretty tip top shape.
I never turn down some one who asks me to take ukemi, and I try my best to take good ukemi. The side effect of that is a pretty good cardio-health.
Soft ukemi wears you out quicker, because it engages more movement(though is easier on the joints at least for me), I usually sway to soft ukemi when I'm looking to sweat. It is a challenge to get up as quickly as standard ukemi from soft ukemi, so it can really get you going.

Our federation, with Shihan who are such amazing teachers of Ukemi, there is no reason not to be pouring with sweat after every class. :hypno:

If you have time to do more than Aikido for aerobics that's great too. I just don't have time for anything else and have found I'm in a good spot regardless.

*stops her sales pitch*

Peace,

Re: Aikido - Is there Randori? Is Aikido a Workout?
 

I'm a member of the ASU which is headed up by Saotome Sensei and we do have a good emphasis on Randori (free attacks with one or more attackers, most commonly three people.
We also have in our dojo times that are slower and not as aerobic but as a general rule of thumb my dogi is soaked when I finish the class. I also have lost about 50 pounds in the past 3 years and usually get a hell of an aerobic workout.
If I want to work up to a more active workout I simply increase the frequency and speed of my attacks which keeps the Nage on his toes! I keep in mind who I am working with and adjust my speed according the ability of my Nage. For neebie I move very slowly and help guide them through the technique by my Ukemi and with the Sandan we can get it on!
Whe I get home my dogi automatically goes into the washer and I get into the shower.

Doc Sexton

Re: Aikido - Is there Randori? Is Aikido a Workout?
 

I hadn't really paid attention. Did you read the rest of what I wrote, or just that one line?

Re: Aikido - Is there Randori? Is Aikido a Workout?
 

:eek:...WOW

Re: Aikido - Is there Randori? Is Aikido a Workout?
 

Hi Larry

There is something very similar yet different to the Shodokan \ Tomiki Randori in Korindo Aikido. the main difference: Korindo Randori is not competitive, hence - we do not use full force, but do use variations disallowed in Shodokan \ Tomiki. Similarly to your style, reversals are allowed and the Uke and Tori roles switch continuously.
I once played with friend who learns Shodokan \ Tomiki Aikido (he returned to Israel from Japan for a visit) and it was a lot of fun. Though I did have a feeling of him trying to force techniques by strength and speed while I think he found it weird I was using techniques and variations discouraged in his Randori.

enjoy
Amir

Re: Aikido - Is there Randori? Is Aikido a Workout?
 

Mr Krause ,

Would you please elaborate on this statement,

Mickey

Re: Aikido - Is there Randori? Is Aikido a Workout?
 

Before I write, I would like to clarify my context again (I believed it was clear enough in the previous post). I never trained in Shodokan \ Tomiki, I know about it from discussions with others who did. Particularly the person with whom I played when he came and visited.

The Korindo Randori is not a competition nor a , rather as a crucial part of the learning process. There is no winner nor loser and no points. The purpose of training is mostly to learn the Aikido between the techniques -- movement, timing, opportunities identification, Kuzushi. Hence, when practicing Korindo Randori in most cases (there are exceptions), one should not force a technique, neither by force nor by speed.
The same reasons let the technique variations used in the Randori, are the same techniques as normally trained. These technique variations often cause damage when utilized full force and speed, and the Randori intensity (speed/power) should match the ability of the partners to safely receive the techniques.
As far as I was told and shown, the Shodokan \ Tomiki choice of Randori type was different, they preferred to train at full power and speed, and for safety reasons, limited the techniques allowed in this type of training to a specific list of "safe techniques".
Take Shiho-Nage as a simple example, we practice it with the hand angled slightly outside of the body and further from it. My friend knew this variation but immediately labeled it as an "offence" in Randori (points reduction or so), since if Uke resists you with full speed and power, the hand will be dislocated. Instead, they keep the hand nearer to the body and in line with it, we teach beginners this way because if they use excess force, it may stretch and heart, but does not create damage.
I think the same issue was raised about head locks, and some other techniques when I used them in the randori. Where as I had to adjast to his trying to muscle a technique on me (same Shiho-Nage mentioned above) repeatedly with increasing speed and force (because it was the non-damaging variation and he did not get Kuzushi, I felt I could evade it and did eventually).

Hope this answers your question, at least to some point. I guess a Shodokan \ Tomiki trainee could add much more information.

Amir

Re: Aikido - Is there Randori? Is Aikido a Workout?
 

I will leave the discussion of Shodokan/Tomiki style to people who know it better than I do. My experience is with mainstream Aikikai.

To answer your questions in general, aikido can be a good workout (it has been an important part of my workout regimen, which has melted 30 pounds off me since last autumn), but is generally less strenuous than judo. There is randori in aikido, but the purely defensive nature of aikido makes it necessary even in randori for one participant to take the roll of defender while others take the roll of attacker. Also, aikidoka generally don't get to do much randori until they have some experience under their belts.

Aikido is unlike tai chi in that participants practice their techniques on real people pretty much all the time (except for weapons kata).

A lot of people come to aikido from judo. One of my instructors, in fact, was a judo black belt before coming to aikido. He says it was a pretty smooth transition.

Hope this helps.

Re: Aikido - Is there Randori? Is Aikido a Workout?
 

Shodokan/Tomiki Aikido

WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS LEEDS 2003

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eeyas...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZi0f...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyQ9A...eature=related

dps

Re: Aikido - Is there Randori? Is Aikido a Workout?
 

Hi Amir,

The person you practiced with is probably one of the Shodokan players who focuses solely on competition and not much else. Imho, just like any other form of martial sport, fixation on the rules and shiai alone will not give one the full experience of the training. So I'm not surprised at your experience.

Competition is only part of the Shodokan method and while there are a particular subset of techniques allowed in shiai for safety reasons it does not mean that resistance randori is not done with some or most of these safeties off`. From my experience I have never needed more than those allowed in shiai to be effective in any other sort of combative encounter.

I have found however that because many from the other Aikido styles (and I've trained in most) do not train with resistance and free will in attack and defence as part of their paradigm that many of the so-called "dangerous" versions of waza cannot be applied under the pressure of a semi-skillful opponent.

It is important to understand that competition and randori are two very different things. Competition is highly specific and is governed by rules and referees but we have many levels of randori ranging from kakari geiko (what most other schools call randori i.e. a tori and uke who gives no resistance in attack or defence) to randori geiko (full resistance free practice where there is no longer a tori and uke). There are also levels in-between these extremes.

Like Judo randori the increased level of dynamic resistance given by a good partner creates a workout that tests cardiovascular fitness, anaerobic fitness, fundamentals such as tai sabaki, shisei and ma ai and the ability to "resist" or "counter" dynamic forces by using a unified mind/body.

You speak about muscling technique and I agree that this is a hallmark of many who focus on competition alone - the same is seen in Judo. However for those who train in the whole method the muscling stage is merely a transitory state to a place where real mind-body coordination occurs as it is forged through regular challenges in randori where ones partner is fully intent on destroying that coordination.

So much fun :).

Regarding the shi ho nage you evaded, again I am not surprised - take any waza from any jujutsu or aikijutsu system anywhere and you will find that regardless of "how" it is done, without kuzushi your waza will not work. So this is not a measure of Shodokan waza but of a person's lack of skill in executing kuzushi.

As far as David's clips go - the only one that shows shiai is the final clip - the rest is embu or demonstration which also gives a good aerobic workout but not the sort of dynamic load-bearing one gets in randori.

Best
LC

Re: Aikido - Is there Randori? Is Aikido a Workout?
 

Hi Larry

I just wanted you to know Shodokan is not the only Aikido style\art that utilizes free tori\Uki role changes and "free play" in Randori.

As for the particulars - we can continue discussion though mostly, I agree with you.

Perhaps it was not clear enough, but my friend did know the variation we were practicing, and did train a very similar one in his Shodokan dojo. The difference was in conception: for him it was the variation I know but is illigal in Shiai, and for me it was the main route of performing that technique.
To the best of my knowledge, he is not that much of a competitive player. But, his responses might have been related to a focus of his training a few weeks before his visit, or his trying to emphasize the differences. Without him to comment...

I normally dislike competition, it takes away from my fun. I do like to try and out-maneuver my friends and his trying to out me, but I enjoy the fact that we continue afterwards without even stopping to acknowledge a point. This, of-course, is a matter of personal likes and dislikes, and not an objective observation.

If that is the situation, do you not focus or just train more on the techniques'\variations allowed in competition? This was the impression I had from my friend, he knew and trained the other options too, but the focus was on those specific technical variations.

Agreed.
My experience has been the same, when inviting Aikido practitioners from most other styles to "free play Randori" many (The exception is more of those who did other M.A.) got lost even at very low intensity (maintained intentionally to keep things safe), I recall multiple occurrences of one such being amazed his slight imbalance or some other opening has been used to invert the technique, and then not knowing how to continue and being thrown, while the Korindo practitioner (and I guess Shodokan too) would just keep moving and trying something else.

If you ever come to Israel - come and visit, I think you will enjoy a refreshing Randori with us.

Agreed, this is the reason I wrote our Randori training is aimed at learning the Aikido between the techniques (IMO - the more important part).
One of Korindo Shihans wrote a scholary article about it:
http://www.freewebz.com/aikido/lecture/unit6.htm

Agree about the principle.
I must admit even without a real competition, people tend to get into such a phase.

:D Yep :D

It was just a particular instance, but could give some perception. Of course, another person or the same at a different time could have acted differently.
At that instance, he lacked Kuzushi, but could have trapped me still if he used the other variation, which is more of a lock then a push and which we practiced a lot that day. Instead, he did the thing he was used to, which required better Kuzushi than he had, and after it failed the first time, he tried to muscle it, while I was wondering why did he not try to change the technique (I was at a disadvantage and actually told him to try something else - being not competitive - I feel free to help during Randori ).
The latter issue - trying to force a technique by muscling and speed instead of finding the soft solution to resistance through of timing and consistent change had a lasting impression on me ( I do believe it was only a phase in his development too, and in the years since he learnt the better way). It was of particular impact since I was not much more advanced then him (years / training time), we both did "free play" Randori yet my focus at the time was rather different than his.

Keep having fun ;)
Amir

Re: Aikido - Is there Randori? Is Aikido a Workout?
 

Hi Amir,

Sorry for the delay. I think this is great. It's good to know we are not the only ones who remove this demarcation in randori. You raise a very valid point here. I think it is very very important for one to understand the difference in the methods of execution for any waza and realize where and when the different version are most applicable. This reminds me of my old Judo sparring days. In the beginning I used lots of wrist locks in newaza that worked but my partner would say "that is illegal in Judo competition". I understood his point but also reminded him that we were sparring and not competing, therefore it being against the rules would not protect his wrist from being broken in a non-competitive situation. I've trained with many sport martial artists over the years and found that the fixation on rules can easily narrow ones focus and tactical approach when one is taken out of the sporting context.
Part of my initial point was that for us, randori and competition are 2 very different things. One can engage in the outmanouevering and countering without checking points and work at varying levels of resistance and include different combinations of attacks allowed etc. This happens more often than any specific shiai practice unless there is a tournament coming close. Most of our randori training is to develop core skills that we can use in competition. It is not solely competition training however, far from it. Shiai is a venue to test acquired skills under some sort of pressure, not the be all and end all of our training method.

The core of our practice is kihon waza, and our kihon waza happens to be a group of 17 techniques that represent the core elements of all Aikido waza. These are also the randori techniques allowed in shiai. The techniques executed in competition are designed to be highly effective against a resistant opponent while offering a modicum of safety from severe injury, as a result kuzushi is key. Given your shi ho nage example, I have quite a few versions depending on the person I plan to use it on. They all come from the kihon and change as needed for the situation. In my experience however the version we use that is safer for the shoulder joint is actually more effective in causing kuzushi (as it stretches the spine muscles along its length and compresses the upper spine towards the ground, planting you to the floor, off balance) as against the version that moves the arm to the side but may snap a shoulder joint but in the heat of combat will not off balance and throw the opponent. So like I've said - I can effectively use the kihon version but if i want to modify, then the option is always there. Depending on how we define a particular randori session one can decide whether or not to stick to kihon or use other variants. I've realized however that this type of more varied randori training tends to be more common in the Americas where the self defence aspect of training is very important.
Sounds good, I go to great lengths to be contorted and tossed around in new ways. Keeps the creative juices flowing. :)

I totally agree with you and it is something I hate to see. If you check Shodokan shiai on youtube you will find lots of this muscling happening (followed by self-inflicted kuzushi as a result), which to me is very sad because that nonsense only works in competition sometimes at best. To be honest I see it as an act of desperation in attempting to salvage bad waza. Funny how this is not what we are trained to do but many resort to it when under the pressure of shiai. I think one of the most difficult challenges is to maintain the integrity of ones technique under extreme pressure, so it is good if used in the right way. As for me, I love those who muscle technique because it gives me more than the amount of handles and levers I need to end the bout with relaxed power. It also gives my partner somethin g to think about with regarding to trying to muscle technique in the future.

Fun stuff. :)

Best
LC