Tanden Usage in Aikido - re Tetsutaka Sugawara
In Internal Martial Arts, Issue #6 (out of print - I don't know how to purchase today, in case anyone asks)
Tetsutaka Sugawara: Aikido and Taiji by Jayson Chung Quote:
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Re: Tanden Usage in Aikido - re Tetsutaka Sugawara
I was just going over his book "Aikido and Chinese Martial Arts, Vol1" the other night. Some interesting stuff in there. Of particular note is that the book was written in 1995 or so and made many of the same observations about Aikido practice as we have seen in the last few years on AW.
There's also a portion in a chapter written by Lijuan Xing on the Chinese arts where he states that (paraphrasing) after about 6 years of training, the author plateaued in his Kung Fu training, and it was only after beginning rigorous 'strength training' for several hours every day that he was able to begin to understand the true nature of Kung Fu. When I first read that, in 97 or so, it seemed like an odd statement. I now wonder if "strength training" was very poorly translated and really meant something along the lines of tanren or bodySKILL training. Some videos of the author here. |
Re: Tanden Usage in Aikido - re Tetsutaka Sugawara
Hmm, no one's biting eh?
Here's the actual quote I paraphrased yesterday: Quote:
In a later chapter written by Sugawara (in a section headed "Points to be reconsidered in Aikido") we see: Quote:
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Re: Tanden Usage in Aikido - re Tetsutaka Sugawara
Validation of sorts to the premise of "what is missing". (Not that any more is needed, now)
Thanks gentlemen |
Re: Tanden Usage in Aikido - re Tetsutaka Sugawara
Well, one other point. I remember Sugawara when he was pure Iwama Style, back in the seventies. I'm told he's utterly transformed himself, through TSKSR and his other studies.
Given this new interest in internal strength development, Sugawara may be worth a visit, rather than just a youtube perusal, by folks in aikido who are working to learn this - to see how Sugawara has progressed in his own studies and what he has to offer you. I've not seen him in well over thirty years, and I don't know what he's done with his aikido. I can say that, even though he has politically severed himself from the mainline of TSKSR, he is truly brilliant in the art - and senior members of the mainline have told me so. Best Ellis Amdur |
Re: Tanden Usage in Aikido - re Tetsutaka Sugawara
In that book, Lujian Xing shows a white crane standing qigong practice.
Tim |
Re: Tanden Usage in Aikido - re Tetsutaka Sugawara
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I selected the above quote from Ellis' original post because it stood out to me. Of course I cannot know in detail what expression of tegatana TS was referring to in his article, but I disagree on the premise that the use of tegatana is inherently limiting due to the hand being "hard". Tegatana study and application is a core of Tomiki's Aikido and it is quite well developed to become a primary point of sensitivity that one uses to detect and effect subtle movements and changes in an attacker's mental and physical state. Well-developed tegatana skills allow one to detect these changes at any point of contact with ones partner or attacker and exploit these changes as needed. I will agree with TS however that one cannot see tegatana as merely the outer edge of the handblade. All aspects of the surface must be used. This skill is important in developing "tekubi okoshi", which is seen by some as a point of initial development in understanding a particular expression of aiki that Ueshiba is known to have used in the 1930s. This is that skill to direct the force of a grab or push directly back into the centre of the attacker along his straightened arm and nullify his force, collapse or project him. The option one uses depends much on control of the tanden, spine and the ability to soften or harden sections of ones tegatana accordingly imho. In my own practice I have found that tegatana allows me to sense the motion of my partner/attacker quote quickly and in conjunction with proper tai sabaki I am able to exploit motion and execute kuzushi in a very powerful but relaxed manner, constantly receiving new input as the dynamics of the attack changes, so contrary to TS' view it is not limiting at all imho. Just a few thoughts. Best LC |
Re: Tanden Usage in Aikido - re Tetsutaka Sugawara
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Re: Tanden Usage in Aikido - re Tetsutaka Sugawara
Sugawara Sensei is very soft yet powerful in his aikido, imho. I've only had limited exposure to him but I really enjoy his practice and find it conducive to where I want to go in my own practice. He is VERY unyeilding in his Katori...very precise and uncompromising.
TS comes to the US annually and I certainly look forward to training with him again. |
Re: Tanden Usage in Aikido - re Tetsutaka Sugawara
Larry - don't know if you are having a little fun at everyone's expense (ala HIPS) - because I recall it was Tomiki sensei who postulated (I cannot remember the exact wording) - "The whole body as a sword"). I take this to mean that although, form him, tegatana is a good starting point, training device, any point of the body can manifest "IT" ;)
If I am correct, then Tomiki sensei's tegatana was not a rigid entity. Whether this is true for others in the Shodokan - maybe is an important question. Best Ellis Amdur |
Re: Tanden Usage in Aikido - re Tetsutaka Sugawara
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I didn't plan on having fun at anyone's expense. But now that you mention HIPS it may be seen that way. My apologies. My comment was more a result of some seminars Shishida held earlier this year where he showed a lot of the applications of tegatana and how they related to Aiki in a historical context. The more I practice Shodokan the more I realise the concept of the whole body being used as a sword and manifesting the focal points of power at any point of the body (needs a lot of practice though). However I can understand that this is not a pervasive concept and have seen quite rigid tegatana use over the years as well. Interesting stuff. Always something to work on imho. :) Best LC |
Re: Tanden Usage in Aikido - re Tetsutaka Sugawara
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IIRC Shodokan hombu dojo lore has Tomiki remembered as saying "there is one technique" and indicating to "tegatana" (handblade) ie the forearm to the tip of little finger. Lets say tegatana means this physical section, not the whole body. Could Tomiki be referring to hiriki - ie referring to the place where kokyu "enters" the arm - at the elbow - and everything from there down is a basic / fundamental manifestation of kokyu? Further food for thought from: http://aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15198 The expression "Kokyu wo ire" means "show sprit" use in 37 passages in the 147 techniques. Based on examination of these 37 passages, this expression refers to the usage of the hand blade(s) in order to break balance, and it is the same as the skill of aiki, which is, in Daito-ryu, the skill of breaking an opponent's balance in a flash by straining hand(s).IMO the shodokan kihon kozo at the beginning of every class (a set of nine exercises) are to essentially train the use of tegatana (/hiriki) - not that they're really advertised as such - amongst other stuff perhaps like timing etc. Two exercises are specifically called hiriki-no-yosei. I do wonder what "straining" hands might be in Japanese though... maybe furishibori ie to muster (strength) ... ie marshal kokyu/jin in the body? Edit: If "tegatana" became Tomiki's parlance for "hiriki" (kokyu), then a natural progression would be for "the whole body to be a sword"... though I think this might be getting a bit tenuous. Thoughts? Cheers, Dave :) |
Re: Tanden Usage in Aikido - re Tetsutaka Sugawara
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I asked Shishida about this the last time I saw him (since he wrote that article you quoted). The English translation is not so good, but the "straining hands" concept is part of a concept called "tekubi okoshi" or "hands rising". It is seen in Judo as well as Aikido through the use of tegatana. The idea is to break the balance of the attacker at the instant of contact. Quote:
The trick to this is the timing of when to splay the fingers and extend into ones partner. There is also the aspect of relaxing and coordinating the whole body so that the rebound force is not lost or does not dissipate somewhere in ones own muscular structure.The force that is extended can be amplified within the body coming from the legs, waist and tanden through the spine and into the arms. He also showed the reverse effect which through total relaxation projected downwards through tegatana disrupts balance downwards on contact, collapsing the attacker down upon himself or drawing him in towards your feet.. A few months later I read what Ellis said about Aikiage and Aikisage in HIPS and got an "aha" moment. I also found a thread on Aikiweb here - http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16734 that has some interesting info on that side of things. Finally, there is a clip of Nariyama Shihan that to me shows a bit of the concept as well. It is here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1QAv0FIQyE. The one Shishida showed however used a lot less body movement. Just my 2 cents. LC |
Re: Tanden Usage in Aikido - re Tetsutaka Sugawara
Vitu Vizuri Sana....
Good Stuff. B, R |
Re: Tanden Usage in Aikido - re Tetsutaka Sugawara
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IMHO that first waza is pretty gross manifestation of bouncing uke. Its setting up intent to reflect uke straight back and up. Its an application of what should be hiriki/kokyu IMO. The "reverse" downwards thing is essentially the same, I'm pretty sure. So are you saying you actually took this waza from Shishida? What did it feel like? Cheers, D Yeah, sorry, forgot to reference Shishida's name on the quote :o |
Re: Tanden Usage in Aikido - re Tetsutaka Sugawara
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I'm interested - IIRC when Nariyama has been asked about kokyu his response has been "its all timing". I've often wondered where this perspective came from, and my own thoughts were pretty much along the same lines as you describe up there. So as to your point about the "timing" - is that something that Shishida / whoever has explained and you're passing it along, or is it a discovery you've made by yourself and explaining as such? Many thanks, D :) |
Re: Tanden Usage in Aikido - re Tetsutaka Sugawara
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When he did the opposite and relaxed his arm I basically had my structure taken out from under me and dropped towards the mat. And I still couldn't let go. It was a very interesting feeling of not being in control of anything. I grabbed him a few times to try to map out what was happening to me. That was 8 months ago and I'm still analyzing the data. :) Quote:
Still working on it. Hopefully it will make sense one day. Hope that helps though. LC |
Re: Tanden Usage in Aikido - re Tetsutaka Sugawara
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Thanks, Dave |
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