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-   -   Viva la resistance! (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16406)

Charles Hill 06-27-2009 06:34 PM

Viva la resistance!
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B328a...eature=related

In this clip of Seigo Yamaguchi Shihan, at about the 1 minute mark, the uke starts to resist. To my eyes Yamaguchi Shihan struggles a bit and his movement becomes smaller and less smooth. I also think that the uke becomes very open (suki), especially his head. I wonder what the purpose/intention is to continue to do Aikido "technique" in a situation like this.

Any thoughts/impressions?

Charles

JO 06-27-2009 06:45 PM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
Since this is aikido training, what alternatives to continuing to do aikido technique do you suggest?

I would consider that learning to handle resisting ukes is an important part of aikido training. Of couse, so is learning how to resist/attack without leaving yourself completely open. Hell, if all we ever did was nice flowing prearranged forms I would get bored out of my mind. Not that that doesn't also have its purpose. But I hate the thought of aikido training always being done the same way, leaving important dimensions of the art unexplored.

Peter Goldsbury 06-27-2009 07:01 PM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
Hello Charles,

Do you know where the clip was taken, or who the uke is?

The location is clearly a sports hall and not a dojo, so I wonder whether the occasion was one of Yamaguchi Sensei's trips abroad. To me, the uke looks somewhat like Minoru Kanetsuka (of course in 1976 this would have been well before the onset of his cancer). This is speculation, but if it was Kanetsuka Sensei, I know from experience (having often taken ukemi from both) that he would have given Yamaguchi Sensei a run for his money.

Best wishes,

PAG

Quote:

Charles Hill wrote: (Post 233753)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B328a...eature=related

In this clip of Seigo Yamaguchi Shihan, at about the 1 minute mark, the uke starts to resist. To my eyes Yamaguchi Shihan struggles a bit and his movement becomes smaller and less smooth. I also think that the uke becomes very open (suki), especially his head. I wonder what the purpose/intention is to continue to do Aikido "technique" in a situation like this.

Any thoughts/impressions?

Charles


George S. Ledyard 06-27-2009 10:05 PM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
Quote:

Charles Hill wrote: (Post 233753)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B328a...eature=related

In this clip of Seigo Yamaguchi Shihan, at about the 1 minute mark, the uke starts to resist. To my eyes Yamaguchi Shihan struggles a bit and his movement becomes smaller and less smooth. I also think that the uke becomes very open (suki), especially his head. I wonder what the purpose/intention is to continue to do Aikido "technique" in a situation like this.

Any thoughts/impressions?

Charles

My own take on this,,, around the middle the uke appears to be getting strong... I noticed Yamaguchi talking while that was occurring. I think he was making a "don't do this, it doesn't work" example.

At one point he seemed to be walking around with his partner attached to his arm. Once again, my take was that he was letting the crowd see how hard the attacker was working... I've done that myself.

There wre a couple of instances in which the uke's balance was broken but he chose not take the fall. He was quite open in that situation. Out context it is impossible to know what was happening... was this what Yamaguchi Sensei wanted? Was it the uke screwing with Yamaguchi? Yamaguchi kept using him for ukemi the whole time so I think it was all fine with him and there were certain points being made to the students. Sensei's usually stop using ukes they think are screwing with them. Either that or they dismantle them...

I think the salient point is that the uke was never properly aligned when a fall didn't take place and Yamaguchi was in position to make whatever adjustment was needed. He certainly didn't look upset with the fellow... the talking seemed to be to the crowd

CitoMaramba 06-28-2009 02:14 AM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
Quote:

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: (Post 233756)
Hello Charles,

Do you know where the clip was taken, or who the uke is?

The location is clearly a sports hall and not a dojo, so I wonder whether the occasion was one of Yamaguchi Sensei's trips abroad. To me, the uke looks somewhat like Minoru Kanetsuka (of course in 1976 this would have been well before the onset of his cancer). This is speculation, but if it was Kanetsuka Sensei, I know from experience (having often taken ukemi from both) that he would have given Yamaguchi Sensei a run for his money.

Best wishes,

PAG

Professor Goldsbury,

The information on the Youtube clip reads:
Quote:

Yamaguchi Sensei Summer School UK 1976.
Some resistance from uke at 1:00...
Since it takes place in the UK, the uke is very likely Kanetsuka Sensei, as you postulated. I wish there was more information about this clip as well as sound!

Ketsan 06-28-2009 10:22 AM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
Quote:

Charles Hill wrote: (Post 233753)
I wonder what the purpose/intention is to continue to do Aikido "technique" in a situation like this.

Any thoughts/impressions?

Charles

It shows if you're using your whole body or not. You should still be able to move uke while relaxed. Actually it should be really difficult unless you're relaxed!

mickeygelum 06-28-2009 01:41 PM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
Mr. Hill,

Thank you for posting this, Yamaguchui Shihan rocks! This is an excellent demonstration !

While I think it falls short of practical application to a combat scenario, it still provides the experience of the "pucker factor". Far from the " oh shit pucker factor" yet, " it ain't working ", so, adapt and redirect.

Again, thank you.



Mr. Lawrence,

Quote:

It shows if you're using your whole body or not. You should still be able to move uke while relaxed. Actually it should be really difficult unless you're relaxed!
You are absolutely correct, Uke is a dojo component, not a real-life opponet. Dojo ballerinas will dance for you no matter how badly you play.

Train well,

Mickey

Ketsan 06-28-2009 05:33 PM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
Quote:

Michael Gelum wrote: (Post 233812)
Mr. Hill,

Thank you for posting this, Yamaguchui Shihan rocks! This is an excellent demonstration !

While I think it falls short of practical application to a combat scenario, it still provides the experience of the "pucker factor". Far from the " oh shit pucker factor" yet, " it ain't working ", so, adapt and redirect.

Again, thank you.

Mr. Lawrence,

You are absolutely correct, Uke is a dojo component, not a real-life opponet. Dojo ballerinas will dance for you no matter how badly you play.

Train well,

Mickey

In this instance "dojo ballerinas" will stop you dancing at all costs, that's the point of the exercise, to test how much power you can generate and if you can apply it correctly. And actually it's not a bad representation of what most people try to do when confronted with being throw, they go stiff and lock you down.

Josh Reyer 06-28-2009 05:55 PM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
My impression is that the uke's resistance was part of the demonstration.

gdandscompserv 06-28-2009 09:04 PM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
Quote:

Joshua Reyer wrote: (Post 233822)
My impression is that the uke's resistance was part of the demonstration.

That's what I got out of it as well.

Alex Megann 06-29-2009 05:45 AM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
That's fascinating! I watched the clip first, then noticed Peter's comment about the venue and the uke, and watched it again. Yes, Yamaguchi Sensei came to the UK in the mid-70s to teach a Summer School (although I didn't start practising for another couple of years so wasn't there on that occasion). The first uke definitely seems to be Kanetsuka Sensei, but I don't get the impression he was being obstructive - to me it seems to be more a case of "if your partner does this, then...". Kanetsuka Sensei was physically very strong in those days. I have heard him say in private that he was able to immobilise Yamaguchi Sensei on one occasion, to the surprise of both parties, but I don't think that is happening on this clip.

Kanetsuka was greatly influenced by Yamaguchi in the years after the latter's first UK visit - I believe that Chiba Sensei, as well as Chiba's father-in-law, Sekiya Sensei, both strongly suggested he studied with Yamaguchi, and this started a kind of revolution in Kanetsuka's aikido, as he became much softer and more sensitive. This process was deepened when Kanetsuka Sensei was seriously ill in the mid-1980s and no longer had physical strength to fall back on.

Kanetsuka Sensei, as Peter notes, puts great stress on aikido having to work against a strong grip - I think this is partly a remnant of his initial training with Gozo Shioda, and partly the influence of Saito Sensei in the 1970s. These days one uke is often not enough for him, and he likes to get three or four big guys to try to stop him moving. All the same, when I take ukemi for him I am very aware of my own openings when they appear, and I can feel that he is too - he just doesn't take advantage of them when it isn't relevant to the point he is trying to get across. Yamaguchi Sensei certainly didn't refrain from atemi, but it was usually quite a gentle reminder that you were in the wrong place.

I think that trying to infer what is actually happening in a teaching situation can often be very difficult, as while there are in general very different levels of response for the uke, it's not obvious which are available at a given instant (and many are not appropriate anyway in any given situation).

Alex

Alex Megann 06-29-2009 08:12 AM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
One thing I forgot to say in my last post was that Kanetsuka Sensei's ukemi is actually very different these days from what he was doing in the YouTube clip. Sometimes (though not nearly as often as, say, ten years ago) he will hold your wrist and ask you to demonstrate the movement being taught. His grip is very soft, and rather than applying resistance he brings your attention to any unconscious attempt to use force, or to any lapse in balance, by redirecting you in such a way that you fall over.

Although it is usually obvious to me what the subject of this lesson is doing wrong, it feels very peculiar when it happens to me. I have little idea where I am at fault, but I just can't grasp his centre, and the more I try, the more I seem to miss and the worse my own balance becomes. I certainly have no sense that he is resisting at all. I'm sure the rest of the class are able to see my mistakes very clearly, though...

Alex

George S. Ledyard 06-29-2009 08:55 AM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
Quote:

Alex Megann wrote: (Post 233846)
Kanetsuka Sensei, as Peter notes, puts great stress on aikido having to work against a strong grip - I think this is partly a remnant of his initial training with Gozo Shioda, and partly the influence of Saito Sensei in the 1970s.

I really think that this emphasis on a "strong grip" is misplaced. Not that we didn't all train that way, back in the day, we did. But I have come to believe that this is a mistaken idea for several reasons.

a) it's bad martial arts - anyone ever win anything, UFC included, by grabbing someone, making his hand turn purple, and being immovable? The grabs we do come from attempts to keep an opponent from accessing a weapon. There would always have been either a strike with the other hand or a kick or both. Or the attack would have been designed to break the balance and the deliver atemi. You simply can't do that while you are tight. You lose speed. You create a direct channel for the other guy's power to hit your structure, etc It's actually easier to move someone who attacks like that than someone who grabs lightly and is has freedom to move because nothing is tight.

b) 50% of ones practice is in the role of uke. If we are striving for relaxed technique and complete freedom to move as needed, you do not want to be doing just the opposite half the time. Your body just gets confused. This is one of the things I appreciate about Endo Sensei is that he insists that the two roles be the same. He stresses connection and each partner is expected to connect to the others center and maintain that connection throughout the technique.

c) Sensitivity is far more important than strength in what we do. If you are tight, you are feeling you not the other fellow. I think part of having our teachers have us be "strong" in our ukemi was so we would eventually realize that it was a dumb way to attack. It certainly never worked with them...

What I now do with my students, starting right from the beginner level, is to teach them to grab and find the partner's center through the grab. We have the partner being grabbed throw an atemi with his other hand. The partner executing the grab should be able to prevent that strike from hitting just using the connection from his grab. He should also be able to prevent a kick from other foot, just through the grab. You can't actually do this if you are being "strong" unless you have a hundred pounds or so on your partner.

Next, we teach the attacker how to grab and achieve kuzushi via the grab and strike with the other hand. It is fluid, it is VERY fast, it is a light enough touch that the defender doesn't feel much until he is off balance and struck. To my mind, that is good martial arts. This whole thing about being strong and immovable is bad martial arts. It exists because the weapons basis of the art has been forgotten. Put edged weapons back into the equation and things change drastically.

Kevin Choate Sensei was having his students wear tanto in their belts when training. If you hunkered down and planted he'd either pull his own or your own tanto and stick you. You discovered that movement was necessary to protect your weapon and avoid the other fellow's. An attack needs to effect the other guy's center while you remain free to move and respond. That's a real attack and it's good martial arts. Anything that creates tension reduces your freedom to move and slows you down. That's bad martial arts.

Alex Megann 06-29-2009 10:00 AM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
Quote:

George S. Ledyard wrote: (Post 233855)
I really think that this emphasis on a "strong grip" is misplaced. Not that we didn't all train that way, back in the day, we did. But I have come to believe that this is a mistaken idea for several reasons.

a) it's bad martial arts - anyone ever win anything, UFC included, by grabbing someone, making his hand turn purple, and being immovable? The grabs we do come from attempts to keep an opponent from accessing a weapon. There would always have been either a strike with the other hand or a kick or both. Or the attack would have been designed to break the balance and the deliver atemi. You simply can't do that while you are tight. You lose speed. You create a direct channel for the other guy's power to hit your structure, etc It's actually easier to move someone who attacks like that than someone who grabs lightly and is has freedom to move because nothing is tight.

b) 50% of ones practice is in the role of uke. If we are striving for relaxed technique and complete freedom to move as needed, you do not want to be doing just the opposite half the time. Your body just gets confused. This is one of the things I appreciate about Endo Sensei is that he insists that the two roles be the same. He stresses connection and each partner is expected to connect to the others center and maintain that connection throughout the technique.

c) Sensitivity is far more important than strength in what we do. If you are tight, you are feeling you not the other fellow. I think part of having our teachers have us be "strong" in our ukemi was so we would eventually realize that it was a dumb way to attack. It certainly never worked with them...

What I now do with my students, starting right from the beginner level, is to teach them to grab and find the partner's center through the grab. We have the partner being grabbed throw an atemi with his other hand. The partner executing the grab should be able to prevent that strike from hitting just using the connection from his grab. He should also be able to prevent a kick from other foot, just through the grab. You can't actually do this if you are being "strong" unless you have a hundred pounds or so on your partner.

Next, we teach the attacker how to grab and achieve kuzushi via the grab and strike with the other hand. It is fluid, it is VERY fast, it is a light enough touch that the defender doesn't feel much until he is off balance and struck. To my mind, that is good martial arts. This whole thing about being strong and immovable is bad martial arts. It exists because the weapons basis of the art has been forgotten. Put edged weapons back into the equation and things change drastically.

Kevin Choate Sensei was having his students wear tanto in their belts when training. If you hunkered down and planted he'd either pull his own or your own tanto and stick you. You discovered that movement was necessary to protect your weapon and avoid the other fellow's. An attack needs to effect the other guy's center while you remain free to move and respond. That's a real attack and it's good martial arts. Anything that creates tension reduces your freedom to move and slows you down. That's bad martial arts.

As is true of any tool, there are right ways of using "strong grips" in training and also many less useful ways.

My sloppiness may have encouraged misunderstanding of what I wrote. I looked back at my post and certainly couldn't find the words "tightness" or "rigidity", but I may have unintentionally suggested that uke's initial strong grip is supposed to persist all the way through the technique, if tori manages to get one going at all. This isn't really how I personally practice: the initial grip is there as a test of tori's (and uke's) centre, but is certainly not supposed to be physically tense or rigid, and I am particularly irritated by ukes, who ought to know better, but don't react to atemi. The grip is only meaningful from a safe position, so if tori manages to move uke's centre, the attack changes fluidly in response.

There is a continuous scale between this kind of attack and the kind of "nigiri-ho" kokyu technique demonstrated by Shioda and Saito Senseis, among others, where the grip specifically enables you to control your partner's centre directly. It can be an immobilisation - just as the ikkyo pin is - but it can also feel like an electric shock to you as uke as your strength is mysteriously taken away.

So, George, I agree with you (I think).

Alex

DonMagee 06-29-2009 10:32 AM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
Quote:

George S. Ledyard wrote: (Post 233855)
I really think that this emphasis on a "strong grip" is misplaced. Not that we didn't all train that way, back in the day, we did. But I have come to believe that this is a mistaken idea for several reasons.

a) it's bad martial arts - anyone ever win anything, UFC included, by grabbing someone, making his hand turn purple, and being immovable? The grabs we do come from attempts to keep an opponent from accessing a weapon. There would always have been either a strike with the other hand or a kick or both. Or the attack would have been designed to break the balance and the deliver atemi. You simply can't do that while you are tight. You lose speed. You create a direct channel for the other guy's power to hit your structure, etc It's actually easier to move someone who attacks like that than someone who grabs lightly and is has freedom to move because nothing is tight.

b) 50% of ones practice is in the role of uke. If we are striving for relaxed technique and complete freedom to move as needed, you do not want to be doing just the opposite half the time. Your body just gets confused. This is one of the things I appreciate about Endo Sensei is that he insists that the two roles be the same. He stresses connection and each partner is expected to connect to the others center and maintain that connection throughout the technique.

c) Sensitivity is far more important than strength in what we do. If you are tight, you are feeling you not the other fellow. I think part of having our teachers have us be "strong" in our ukemi was so we would eventually realize that it was a dumb way to attack. It certainly never worked with them...

What I now do with my students, starting right from the beginner level, is to teach them to grab and find the partner's center through the grab. We have the partner being grabbed throw an atemi with his other hand. The partner executing the grab should be able to prevent that strike from hitting just using the connection from his grab. He should also be able to prevent a kick from other foot, just through the grab. You can't actually do this if you are being "strong" unless you have a hundred pounds or so on your partner.

Next, we teach the attacker how to grab and achieve kuzushi via the grab and strike with the other hand. It is fluid, it is VERY fast, it is a light enough touch that the defender doesn't feel much until he is off balance and struck. To my mind, that is good martial arts. This whole thing about being strong and immovable is bad martial arts. It exists because the weapons basis of the art has been forgotten. Put edged weapons back into the equation and things change drastically.

Kevin Choate Sensei was having his students wear tanto in their belts when training. If you hunkered down and planted he'd either pull his own or your own tanto and stick you. You discovered that movement was necessary to protect your weapon and avoid the other fellow's. An attack needs to effect the other guy's center while you remain free to move and respond. That's a real attack and it's good martial arts. Anything that creates tension reduces your freedom to move and slows you down. That's bad martial arts.

I couldn't agree more. In fact this was a major roadblock in my head when I first starting training. In many arts the uke simply does one thing, one grab, one punch, etc. Even in my 100% fresh noob brain at 12 years old, I couldn't understand this mentality. A person never just does one thing. They react, chain, move, adjust. They are living, breathing, intelligent, tacticful (not a word, I know), people.

My first TKD lesson was me learning a few basic techniques then some drills to practice them. I was told to throw a punch to the face, I threw it and retracted my arms and was told this was wrong. It didn't make sense then to stand there with an arm outstretched waiting to be 'blocked' and it doesn't make sense now. Beyond of course building the very very basic understanding of a technique or movement. I mean no one is just going to grab your hand, so why practice just grabbing your hand. Grab your hand to pull you in, or grab your hand to attack you with a strike, or grab your hand to enter in for some kind of body grip. Just like people never throw one punch and wait, they never grab and wait.

Ketsan 06-29-2009 12:55 PM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
Quote:

Don Magee wrote: (Post 233862)
I couldn't agree more. In fact this was a major roadblock in my head when I first starting training. In many arts the uke simply does one thing, one grab, one punch, etc. Even in my 100% fresh noob brain at 12 years old, I couldn't understand this mentality. A person never just does one thing. They react, chain, move, adjust. They are living, breathing, intelligent, tacticful (not a word, I know), people.

My first TKD lesson was me learning a few basic techniques then some drills to practice them. I was told to throw a punch to the face, I threw it and retracted my arms and was told this was wrong. It didn't make sense then to stand there with an arm outstretched waiting to be 'blocked' and it doesn't make sense now. Beyond of course building the very very basic understanding of a technique or movement. I mean no one is just going to grab your hand, so why practice just grabbing your hand. Grab your hand to pull you in, or grab your hand to attack you with a strike, or grab your hand to enter in for some kind of body grip. Just like people never throw one punch and wait, they never grab and wait.

IMHO.

I always thought you didn't retract your hand because the other person needed to work on their blocks, it's about perfecting the block, not the punch. Later when they have the block nailed they can practice against propper punches. That's the way I've always seen things done anyway. "Nobody attacks like this" isn't always a valid response. In fact it's often the biggest bunch of BS floating around the martial arts at the moment.
People that have never boxed honestly think that if they attacked someone it would be as a boxer does, for instance and they expect everyone else to as well, even if they're untrained. But that's another argument.

The point of training is to develop skills and often the best way to learn those skills is often with attacks that may not be the most realistic, but are the most useful for developing confidence, timing, form, mai-ai ect.
I really don't care if no-one will ever attack me with shomen uchi, the practice of dealing with shomen uchi has taught me lots of stuff that is applicable across the board.
.
The point about grabs is that there shouldn't be time for something else. Where I train gakyu hamni katadori is a wrist grab followed quickly by a punch. We rarely do the punch because if uke can make the punch tori has already failed. Why would you allow someone to walk up to you and plant themselves ready to strike? That's madness, you don't win fights by giving someone a free hit or letting them take your balance. The defence against a grab assumes a follow up if not simultaneous strike and it begins before uke gets anywhere near making contact.
Sure, it sometimes looks like "grab and wait" but only if you misunderstand what's going on.

Brett Charvat 06-29-2009 02:38 PM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
I certainly agree that tactically, static grab-based attacks that start and end at the grab itself don't make much sense. However, I'm at a point in my training now where I'm trying to work on certain body skills that I simply cannot do without a rigid uke who is doing nothing more than trying to not let me move our collective contact point(s). Will I one day be able to apply these principles in a fluid engagement with a careful and constantly changing uke? I certainly hope so, but for now I need an uke who is cooperating with what I need by being rigid. I don't think I'm disagreeing with anyone on the thread, but I think for some of us in the early stages, there is some merit to static, rigid, and quite unrealistic uke/tori relationships.

gdandscompserv 06-29-2009 02:53 PM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
Quote:

George S. Ledyard wrote: (Post 233855)
I really think that this emphasis on a "strong grip" is misplaced. Not that we didn't all train that way, back in the day, we did. But I have come to believe that this is a mistaken idea for several reasons.

a) it's bad martial arts - anyone ever win anything, UFC included, by grabbing someone, making his hand turn purple, and being immovable? The grabs we do come from attempts to keep an opponent from accessing a weapon. There would always have been either a strike with the other hand or a kick or both. Or the attack would have been designed to break the balance and the deliver atemi. You simply can't do that while you are tight. You lose speed. You create a direct channel for the other guy's power to hit your structure, etc It's actually easier to move someone who attacks like that than someone who grabs lightly and is has freedom to move because nothing is tight.

Is it not possible to maintain a 'strong' grip while also being relaxed? I was taught that one can 'localize' a strong grip while maintaining relaxation throughout the rest of one's body. In other words, I'm not sure that a strong grip and a relaxed body are mutually exclusive.

George S. Ledyard 06-29-2009 03:41 PM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
Quote:

Ricky Wood wrote: (Post 233883)
Is it not possible to maintain a 'strong' grip while also being relaxed? I was taught that one can 'localize' a strong grip while maintaining relaxation throughout the rest of one's body. In other words, I'm not sure that a strong grip and a relaxed body are mutually exclusive.

I suppose you can but it has little function, why neutralize one of your weapons? If I wee fighting, as opposed to training, I'd have the guy's balance broken and I'd be letting go and striking all in one movement. Or i would have taken him down at the moment of contact... neither of which requires a strong grip. One should grab ones partner the same way you hold a sword. I hope you don't white knuckle your sword...

George S. Ledyard 06-29-2009 03:46 PM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
Quote:

Alex Megann wrote: (Post 233859)
There is a continuous scale between this kind of attack and the kind of "nigiri-ho" kokyu technique demonstrated by Shioda and Saito Senseis, among others, where the grip specifically enables you to control your partner's centre directly. It can be an immobilisation - just as the ikkyo pin is - but it can also feel like an electric shock to you as uke as your strength is mysteriously taken away.

So, George, I agree with you (I think).

Alex

Look, if you have the equipment, i.e. large hands, monster forearms, and enough mass to deliver the "grip of death", then great. But it's not only a useless skill for smaller people, male or female, but training that way is counter productive if you will never have the kind of strength where it was any function.

I don't want to get into one of those "style" discussions... but some approaches are only suitable for very strong people.

Most students are, well, average. And if you are average you are not immobilizing anyone with a grab. Not happening, silly to try.

mickeygelum 06-29-2009 03:51 PM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
Quote:

In this instance "dojo ballerinas" will stop you dancing at all costs, that's the point of the exercise, to test how much power you can generate and if you can apply it correctly. And actually it's not a bad representation of what most people try to do when confronted with being throw, they go stiff and lock you down.
Uh...really? Thanks for pointing that out, I would have never figured that out myself. I will attempt to be more astute.

Mickey

gdandscompserv 06-29-2009 05:34 PM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
Quote:

George S. Ledyard wrote: (Post 233886)
I suppose you can but it has little function, why neutralize one of your weapons? If I wee fighting, as opposed to training, I'd have the guy's balance broken and I'd be letting go and striking all in one movement. Or i would have taken him down at the moment of contact... neither of which requires a strong grip. One should grab ones partner the same way you hold a sword. I hope you don't white knuckle your sword...

lol, my sword skills are nill so I won't attempt to address that. However, I'm not sure that a strong grip equates to white knuckling either. Maybe we are just 'disagreeing' on what constitutes a strong grip. I do know that in grappling a strong grip can be quite useful.

Demetrio Cereijo 06-29-2009 05:35 PM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
About strong gripping.

Here Mochizuki talks about O Sensei grip.

"... his hand was like a vise"

Janet Rosen 06-29-2009 06:01 PM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
George, your last long post really resonated for me.

As one of those small folks (and now with bad arthritis affecting grip in both hands it is even more apt for me) I always appreciated early advice from an instructor to attack with "sticky palms" in order to find/feel the connection, rather than worrying about the strength of my grip.

George S. Ledyard 06-29-2009 06:52 PM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
Quote:

Ricky Wood wrote: (Post 233890)
lol, my sword skills are nill so I won't attempt to address that. However, I'm not sure that a strong grip equates to white knuckling either. Maybe we are just 'disagreeing' on what constitutes a strong grip. I do know that in grappling a strong grip can be quite useful.

I would say that this is one of the things that makes grappling, grappling. But even then, the muscles in the hand are so small compared to your other muscle groups that if you put them in competition with one another, the grip always loses.

I am not saying that strength is bad or that one shouldn't do conditioning. I am saying that what most people do in their technique is inefficient. It uses way too much energy for the task at hand, attempts to accomplish things that it shouldn't be attempting, (i.e. trying to keep someone from moving as opposed to keepoing a direct connection to their center) and doesn't work against people who really know how to relax.

Janet's description of sticking so that you can feel the partner's center is a good one. Then you can start to create movement that doesn't require much in the way of physical effort.

DonMagee 06-29-2009 08:50 PM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
Quote:

Alex Lawrence wrote: (Post 233871)
IMHO.

I always thought you didn't retract your hand because the other person needed to work on their blocks, it's about perfecting the block, not the punch. Later when they have the block nailed they can practice against propper punches. That's the way I've always seen things done anyway. "Nobody attacks like this" isn't always a valid response. In fact it's often the biggest bunch of BS floating around the martial arts at the moment.
People that have never boxed honestly think that if they attacked someone it would be as a boxer does, for instance and they expect everyone else to as well, even if they're untrained. But that's another argument.

The point of training is to develop skills and often the best way to learn those skills is often with attacks that may not be the most realistic, but are the most useful for developing confidence, timing, form, mai-ai ect.
I really don't care if no-one will ever attack me with shomen uchi, the practice of dealing with shomen uchi has taught me lots of stuff that is applicable across the board.
.
The point about grabs is that there shouldn't be time for something else. Where I train gakyu hamni katadori is a wrist grab followed quickly by a punch. We rarely do the punch because if uke can make the punch tori has already failed. Why would you allow someone to walk up to you and plant themselves ready to strike? That's madness, you don't win fights by giving someone a free hit or letting them take your balance. The defence against a grab assumes a follow up if not simultaneous strike and it begins before uke gets anywhere near making contact.
Sure, it sometimes looks like "grab and wait" but only if you misunderstand what's going on.

While I understand the value and reasoning you are stating, and I do agree with the spirit of your post, I'm still not 100% onboard. For instance the block. Ok, let's practice it four or five times, but after that it's about timing, just the punch and wait at that point is hurting your partner.

Now with grappling it does take longer to develop the proper motion and static training should be employed longer, but at some point it needs to be cut and you need to focus on what you can do, not what you wish you could do. I wish I could break someone's balance the moment they grab me. I of course practice this, but I spend a lot of my time practicing what I can actually do now. That means learning to deal with being imperfect and how to adjust and move with my partner.

I don't always see this in higher level practice. I still see the same static arm dangling punch thrown at black belts by black belts. The same grab and delay done again and again. I've seen this in TKD, I've seen it in aikido, hell I've seen it in bjj practice.

Take the bjj example of a triangle drill. Yes it helps a lot in the beginning for your partner to stick one arm in and wait to be triangled over and over again. But eventually, without drills that practice leading my opponent into a triangle, without drills that practice the real timing of using that triangle, this basic arm in static drill is worthless.

I saw this as a pre-teen. I'm almost 30 and I still can't see why it seems so obvious to me and so revolutionary for so many martial artists.

swalsh 06-29-2009 11:05 PM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
I agree entirely that we are training, not fighting. Having an uke squeeze the cheese out your wrist and constantly resisting is no fun and counter-productive to learning. However, when dealing with someone with no martial arts experience, their usual reflex when unbalanced is to grab hold for grim death. So there is some validity in training to handle the grip of death.

Carsten Möllering 06-30-2009 12:57 AM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
Hi

in Aikido-based seminars I give, a lot of people ask me whether I can show how to handle a strong grip. Be it of the wrist or the hair or a clinch(?) from the front or from behind.

Greetings
Carsten

philippe willaume 06-30-2009 02:01 AM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
Hello
sure resisting like a donkey all the time is as counter productive as not resisting at all the time. There is a place for both.
As don said when you are learning what to do resisting is counter productive. After a while you need it shows us where we are loosing the technique.

phil

philipsmith 07-02-2009 05:38 AM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
Interesting thread.

i remember that Summer school well for several reasons.

Kanetsuka Sensei was very strong and "bullish" at that time with very direct physical Aikido and it was a complete revelation to see him change over the next several years.

Yamaguchi Senseis Aikido was generally flowing and seemed gentle but was also incredibly martial. I made the error of trying to stop him when he wasn't demonstrating (well I was young and foolish) and can still feel the power of his technique as he completley winded me, rendering me unable to stand. He said later on that week that teaching and practise were two different entities and it was difficult to always combine the two. I took that to mean that sometimes your technique is ineffective when teaching because of the situation i.e. you are trying to show a standard technique.

JimCooper 07-02-2009 07:06 AM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
Quote:

George S. Ledyard wrote: (Post 233855)
a) it's bad martial arts - anyone ever win anything

But when you're being the attacker (in a dojo), there are multiple reasons for doing that. You might be helping a beginner learn the technique, or providing a test of technique for a 4th dan.

The fact that you are gripping a wrist at all as an attack is not particularly realistic, the same way as having uke attack with a stepping punch isn't. But both attacks can help when learning either a technique or a principle.

Quote:

George S. Ledyard wrote: (Post 233855)
b) 50% of ones practice is in the role of uke.

As others have mentioned, strong is not equal to rigid. That's a lesson to learn as uke. But uke is also there to help tori, so sometimes it is necessary to attack in a certain, non-aikido way.

Quote:

George S. Ledyard wrote: (Post 233855)
c) Sensitivity is far more important than strength in what we do.

Sure. But not all attackers know that, and sometimes you want uke to emulate such people.

AsimHanif 07-02-2009 09:28 AM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
As far as the clip is concerned I was impressed with Yamaguchi Sensei (as usual). I'm of the opinion that even IF he did get stuck, so what? I thinks its unreasonable to think that someone who's been on the mat as much as him over the years would never have any issues. I'm sure there are those who believe O'Sensei was always perfect and never had any issues on the mat. I just don't think that's realistic. I don't care how good you are there are gonna be times when things are off, even if just a bit.

Janet Rosen 07-02-2009 09:36 AM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
Quote:

Jim Cooper wrote: (Post 234035)
But when you're being the attacker (in a dojo), there are multiple reasons for doing that. You might be helping a beginner learn the technique, or providing a test of technique for a 4th dan.

Jim, I can't speak to what it does for 4th dans {big grin}, but I believe that the job of a beginner is to learn proper relaxation, breathing, posture, moving from the center with the associated correct footwork and movements for each art; that is, the building blocks of aikido. I remember being given very strong grips and a lot of resistance as a beginner and it never once helped; all it did was distract me from learning. It would be like taking a beginning foreign language student and instead of going back and forth on simple questions, reciting a paragraph and then asking a question.
A learner needs to succeed most of the time and challenges should be at each learner's current level, shaping and modeling him. If you keep failing because the challenge is inappropriately high, you are learning SOMEthing but it isn't how to succeed at the task.
I realize as I write that I may be reading more into your brief comment than you intended....

JimCooper 07-03-2009 09:34 AM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 234043)
I remember being given very strong grips and a lot of resistance as a beginner and it never once helped; all it did was distract me from learning.

That's the point I was trying (not very clearly, now I read it again) to make. You attack (grip, strike, whatever) different people differently, and you might attack the same person differently depending on the point of the exercise.

With a beginner you may want a bad MA grip (weak), whereas a 4th dan might want a bad MA (awkward, rigid, normal person) grip.

While I can see the points he was trying to make, IMO, George was being a bit too general is his remarks on grips.

Lyle Bogin 07-03-2009 01:56 PM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
Regarding the clip, he's clearly teaching as in "if you get stuck, do this" or "his strength is here so go there".

Imaizumi Sensei likes to do that....ask for problems and then present solutions to try.

Mary Eastland 07-05-2009 02:14 PM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
Hmmmm... since we have no idea what he said prior to this clip...It could be an example of how not to throw.
Videos taken out of context can mean anything.
Mary

George S. Ledyard 07-08-2009 09:04 AM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
Quote:

Jim Cooper wrote: (Post 234035)
But when you're being the attacker (in a dojo), there are multiple reasons for doing that. You might be helping a beginner learn the technique, or providing a test of technique for a 4th dan.

I think that we need to start looking at what creates good martial artists, not what makes the teacher look good. Encouraging "strong" attacks in the way that most Aikido people do them is bad martial arts. If I grab you, I want you off balance before you even register what's happening. If I feel your strength, I am already dealing with it.

Quote:

The fact that you are gripping a wrist at all as an attack is not particularly realistic, the same way as having uke attack with a stepping punch isn't. But both attacks can help when learning either a technique or a principle.
Once again, I will point out that Aikido form is based on both people having weapons. Once you introduce weapons into the equation, grabbing makes much more sense. The fact that we largely practice without weapons does not mean that this was really supposed to be an empty hand fighting style.

Quote:

As others have mentioned, strong is not equal to rigid. That's a lesson to learn as uke. But uke is also there to help tori, so sometimes it is necessary to attack in a certain, non-aikido way.
And once again, I will say: Half of your practice time is as uke. If you have uke doing something different than nage, your body simply gets confused. Practice is about imprinting something into your mind and body. Practice that doesn't make the lesson completely clear for your mind and body isn't very good practice.

Most Aikido people substitute muscle power for proper structure. The whole internal power thing has been beaten to death on the forum here but suffice it to say, if you develop proper structure, your strength is in that structure and there is the ability to be completely relaxed. If you are using muscle power, you are not relaxed and you are not using aiki.

Quote:

Sure. But not all attackers know that, and sometimes you want uke to emulate such people.
If, once in a while you want to test out whether you can do your stuff against any attack, why not find some non-Aikido folks to mess with? One of the huge objections I have had with how Aikido is done is that one largely develops a very high level of skill doing sophisticated techniques, using very subtle principles, against attacks by martial morons. We should be teaching people how to attack with aiki, not keep telling them to get stronger and stronger.

I am particularly aware of this issue. I am a very large man. Attempts to use physical strength against me are ridiculous. Yet i constantly have people come up and try to turn my hand purple, hunkering down as if they could actually keep me from moving with a grab. That's bad practice any way you cut it. It doesn't do anything, isn't actually possible, and only serves to give me what I need to destroy them. I think we should be striving for the ability to apply aiki whether in the uke or nage roles. Very few people I see do that.

You either see ukes floating around and tanking for their partners or you see ukes trying to be strong in ways that make no sense whatever in a martial sense, all the while thinking that their "strong" attacks are the real martial deal.

Once again... if I grab you I want you off balance and either struck or on your way to the floor before you feel what is happening. Muscle type strength is the enemy of that sort of ability.

MM 07-08-2009 09:29 AM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
Quote:

George S. Ledyard wrote: (Post 234300)
The whole internal power thing has been beaten to death on the forum here but suffice it to say, if you develop proper structure, your strength is in that structure and there is the ability to be completely relaxed. If you are using muscle power, you are not relaxed and you are not using aiki.

Well, you know I already agree with you. :) But, before I experienced things first hand, I "didn't know that I didn't know" to borrow a great phrase. I had thought I was being relaxed and not using a lot of strength only to find out that I wasn't. I really didn't know that I didn't know.

Quote:

George S. Ledyard wrote: (Post 234300)
If, once in a while you want to test out whether you can do your stuff against any attack, why not find some non-Aikido folks to mess with? One of the huge objections I have had with how Aikido is done is that one largely develops a very high level of skill doing sophisticated techniques, using very subtle principles, against attacks by martial morons. We should be teaching people how to attack with aiki, not keep telling them to get stronger and stronger.

I am particularly aware of this issue. I am a very large man. Attempts to use physical strength against me are ridiculous. Yet i constantly have people come up and try to turn my hand purple, hunkering down as if they could actually keep me from moving with a grab. That's bad practice any way you cut it. It doesn't do anything, isn't actually possible, and only serves to give me what I need to destroy them. I think we should be striving for the ability to apply aiki whether in the uke or nage roles. Very few people I see do that.

Not debating effective attacks ... I agree with you on that. And I agree that both nage and uke should be working on aiki.

But, I had questions about practicing while learning aiki. For instance, does my partner, uke, always use aiki (to their ability) when practicing? The answer given was not always. Split the time between uke using muscle (with good attacks) and aiki. Why? Because people react very differently when using muscle as compared to aiki. Be prepared for both.

Quote:

George S. Ledyard wrote: (Post 234300)
You either see ukes floating around and tanking for their partners or you see ukes trying to be strong in ways that make no sense whatever in a martial sense, all the while thinking that their "strong" attacks are the real martial deal.

Once again... if I grab you I want you off balance and either struck or on your way to the floor before you feel what is happening. Muscle type strength is the enemy of that sort of ability.

True. The only disagreement that I have is from experience in working on the beginning exercises for building structure and aiki. There really is quite a bit of ... not cooperation really, but a give and take kind of training. Let's take me working on a push to the side of my head. In the beginning, it didn't take hardly any kind of a push at all to push me over. So, uke had to dial down the level of energy or physical strength so that I could have enough time to work on my structure and pathways.

Working on building aiki -- different kind of training, I guess you could say. Working on techniques (once you have some level of aiki), yeah, I agree with what you posted. Sometimes as uke, we work on capturing center on contact -- when uke uses aiki. Trying to capture center on contact as a non-aiki-using uke when nage is using aiki is ... very problematic. :)

Mark

DH 07-08-2009 10:19 AM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
The strength of your grip has little to do with your hand. Ueshiba knew this and it is also why Mochizuki noted that contrary to all of his efforts (now there's a comparative worth statement if ever there was one! Anyone care to consider just how capable HE was)...but he says "he never got it either." Nor will anyone else who continues to pursue strength like every other guy out there.
It doesn't work- it will never work.
It is also pointless to separate stickiness from power in the grip. They exist at the same time. Just switching directions in your center can be "very" potent in your hand, to the point of breaking bones, or taking center, and this while the person is..."stuck" to you. No one can say they truly understand either if they cannot manifest both at the same time. You can't "fake" having a hand that is connected to your center, nor can you "fake" a center that has power to drive the body. Although many are convinced they are connected, once you meet someone who actually is, it just sort of ends the discussion then and there. So the real dilema is finding those who can do it...but more importantly, the smart ones will find those who can also can teach it to them.
Cheers
Dan

DH 07-08-2009 10:57 AM

Re: Viva la resistance!
 
Quote:

George S. Ledyard wrote: (Post 234300)
I think that we need to start looking at what creates good martial artists, not what makes the teacher look good. Encouraging "strong" attacks in the way that most Aikido people do them is bad martial arts. If I grab you, I want you off balance before you even register what's happening. If I feel your strength, I am already dealing with it.

Huge subject George...lots there

Making a good martial artist IMO, is two fold:
1. Internal power and the ability to manifest aiki
2. Fighting with it

Quote:

Most Aikido people substitute muscle power for proper structure. The whole internal power thing has been beaten to death on the forum here but suffice it to say, if you develop proper structure, your strength is in that structure and there is the ability to be completely relaxed. If you are using muscle power, you are not relaxed and you are not using aiki.
I think internal power has not even begun to be discussed here. All that has happened is that it has been talked about amongst a group of folks who had not been taught much, if anything at all, and the subsequent debate of its possible worth. I have seen almost nothing in writing that went past nursery school stuff.

Quote:

If, once in a while you want to test out whether you can do your stuff against any attack, why not find some non-Aikido folks to mess with? One of the huge objections I have had with how Aikido is done is that one largely develops a very high level of skill doing sophisticated techniques, using very subtle principles, against attacks by martial morons. We should be teaching people how to attack with aiki, not keep telling them to get stronger and stronger.
What a great point. And that plagues Daito ryu and many other forms of MA as well. It's not just aikido's dilemma. But OMG what are you saying then, George? Do MMA?:eek:

Quote:

I think we should be striving for the ability to apply aiki whether in the uke or nage roles. Very few people I see do that.
Again, great point, but if you pursue it to its full extent you will wind up with a model that looks VEY different from Aikido. Ueshiba was not exactly allowing or developing that in his model was he? Teaching people to defeat you and NOT to take Ukemi eliminates all of the dramatic shtick people love to watch, and also the "empowering" quality a lot of people "need" to feel good about their efforts. Others will argue that all of the fun is gone...until they fully realize a different sort of fun that true aiki can instill.
Quote:

Once again... if I grab you I want you off balance and either struck or on your way to the floor before you feel what is happening. Muscle type strength is the enemy of that sort of ability.
And, another good point. I dare say though that judo can do that as well as many other good grappling arts. That’s where you and I usually have a problem in discussion. Principle based waza can do quite a lot to move normal people and thus "mask" any real lack of connection in your body or any real serious understanding of what it is really all about.
There are a whole bunch of popular teachers on the circuit explaining their "principle based" art who don't have much of a clue about real power or even aiki, but they are good martial artists and mimic some of the effects very well through certain principles they share. I have a couple of high ranking acquaintances who were previously enamored with so and so teachers until they felt guys with the real deal. Suddenly it dawned on them that those other guys were masking connection failures and structural flaws, with "sophisticated" technique. It helped understand why there were years of discussion about subtle and sophisticated waza failing and why some of us who could actually DO aiki were reading that and thinking "What the hell are they talking about? What is dependant on waza in the first place? And what's subtle about it"
In the end the real training is to change the body not focus on principles. So that the body does NOT move, act or re-act the way a normal person does in the first place. For me, that is thee singular goal I start people off with. And that training has to be gradual to full resistance; statically then in motion. Not without merit is the fact that it is making some very experienced men want to change everything- their entire approach to everything they knew!
Cheers
Dan


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