Re: How to teach and train relaxation
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Uz Wescunry men rule, my ol luvver! :p |
Re: How to teach and train relaxation
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I should have noted a couple of other things, too, BTW: (A.) In real life there are many times when the waza, as a matter of practicality, is going to be the more likely response (due to either the situation or to Nage's level of expertise). The use of the Ki forces is therefore the penultimate ideal, but common-sense and reality have to be taken into account. (B.) Secondly, manipulating Uke's forces so that he throws himself is high-level use of the ki-forces/kokyu/whatever, but this is a good place to point out that the "ki throws" are essentially the same thing, when done correctly. I.e., instead of manipulating Uke's force/attack with jin which combines with his, you make a movement that results in his reactions making his forces take him into a throw. When viewed from that sort of perspective, the "ki throws" suddenly make more sense to a lot of people. ;) Best. Mike |
Re: How to teach and train relaxation
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Regards, Mike |
Re: How to teach and train relaxation
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I guess I don't understand. What you expressed I don't see as being different. You expected some students perhaps to be more successful at it and since they were not you are thinking something differs ? or they simply did something qualitatively different from what you expected to feel and yet were successful at it ? |
Re: How to teach and train relaxation
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The level of success was not as high as it could have been, Craig, so I was suggesting a possible way to improve the mental approach/visualization. That's all I originally tried to say, leaving the rest alone. Qualitatively I noticed two major things... the stability was not as great as it *could* be, even though in some cases it worked OK (my thoughts were more in line with what I think beginners could use to arrive more quickly and more firmly at results... not a denigration of the current curriculum, etc.). Secondly, and more subtly, in moving correctly with Ki, a "feel" develops in the person moving because there is a subtle shift in the way the body works. Because I did not feel this aspect very much, I am positting that a slight shift in the visualization *may* help a bit. But that's an opinion that I'm offering in what's meant to be a helpful sense, nothing more. Regards, Mike |
Re: How to teach and train relaxation
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regards, Mark |
Re: How to teach and train relaxation
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And me, I think I'm at #1. :) Mark |
Re: How to teach and train relaxation
Thank you, Mike. Great post.
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The real difference of our approach to understanding this for training purposes comes back to the conception of the relationship between will and movement. If it is approached from the standpoint of manipulating the input so as "not to move" there is a will to resist movement, and thus an impediment to the immediate communication of the state of the input, by partially reducing its signal with any oppositional component of force . If the will is to move as moved, then there is no internal resistance negating or cancelling out a portion of the input attacking movement by opposing it. It is more sensitive because the whole signal is received rather than the resisted portion being cancelled. The necessary movement simply becomes radically smaller and smaller as input sensitivity grows higher with training. Eventually it becomes "virtual movement." The distinction between this and "no movement" approached from the "not to move" paradigm is very important. The virtual movement state is supercritical -- highyl unstable, which I think Mike recognizes. It cannot be maintained for any arbitrary period of time, which I think O Sensei's videos offered to illustrate some of these "not moving" issues, do demonstrate. The quantity of movement achieved is equivalent from both approaches but the vector orientations at this virtual zero are precisely reversed. That matters -- even at a zero quantity of movement -- because it is not a stable zero. It is a very, very unstable zero that requires energy to achieve from either direction, and any loss of energy (or undue additional input) will cause you to depart. The question is which way is "downhill." What orientation does the fall away from the supercritical state take? If you train from being moved to "virtual movement" your default (stability basin) on reducing energy in departing from the supercritical zero regime is back to "being moved." If you train from "not moving" toward "not moved" your stability basin in reducing energy from the supercritical virtual/no movement area is toward resisting the movement. The one causes sensitivity to remain, the other causes sensitivity to lessen. Let me illustrate briefly what I am beginning to see as the form of "correct relaxation" from a mechanical viewpoint. There is one simple mechanical device that almost instantly communicates changed load conditions to the whole body of the structure, (i.e. -- by moving that structure, and creating and propagating internal rotations (and moments) in its articulating sub-elements.) It is the hanging chain. In pure compression it is the catenary arch. An arch of tangent spheres has no cohesion or bending resistance at all to stop an immediate collapse under gravity (i.e. -- it is utterly relaxed) but it has one, and only one, stable shape under its own weight where it will stand erect -- where the the line of force runs exactly through the points of contact between the spheres. That is to say, where it is "correctly relaxed." Viewed at different scales the curve may appear more flat or more pointed, but it is the always same precise shape -- always. Kokyu is like finding the key that fits neatly into that very narrow lock at different scales of action. All the necessary stability adjustments in the model are tangential rotations of the joints between the spheres. All components of force tangent to the spheres at the point of contact are thus perfectly perpendicular (juji) to the only stable line of force. Actively maintain this shape in adapting to different scales of load, and you form the correct shape of kokyu expression for that load condition. It may appear relatively flatter (tegatana "hand blade") or more pointed in shape (hiji-riki or "elbow power"), depending on the load it is responding to. Actively disrupt this shape across the joints in four places and the body is a mechanism that is unliftable by upward pushing or where the center of mass is unreachable by pulling or pushing. This is overly simplistic as there are other slight variations in shape that depart from the catenary (at the supports for other defined loads), but the identical line of force principle holds throughout the center portions of all of these curves of whatever shape. When uke grabs my wrist, or I meet his munetsuki on the fly, he and I form now a single chain. If I adopt the shape of the chain in that configuration -- everything that happens in that chain is communicated to every other part of the chain. If I achieve and maintain the proper shape between us, any internal joint rotations that I create now propagate to reach him, and his reach me. Those internal rotations, having an angular momentum, can be propagated to manipulate and create other and grosser rotations in other componets of the chain to concentrate (snapping the whip) or diminish perceived forces -- but that is another topic. Lastly, the dynamic aspect of this is the question I asked David Knowlton elsewhere about the fall of one end of a folded chain. With one end supported, the free tip falls from the same hook, with an aceleration greater than gravity. The accleration occurs becasue of the compounding of angular momentum with mass transfer (irimi), and decreasing inertial radius (as the free portion of chain shortens) (tenkan) causes the angular velocity at the end of the chain's fall to become mathematically infinite, or to be limited only by the harmonic length of the chain, or the speed of sound in air (snapping whip) whichever comes first. The linked chain of wrist, arms, shoulder, spine and hips cannot achive that degree of compounded momentum, but they can achieve a very great deal of it by the same mechanism, and they can act in two perpendicular component planes and three dimensions, without ever opposing the input force at all. |
Re: How to teach and train relaxation
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The last part of your explanation doesn't fit as a description to what I know can be done with the mind and forces, but it's pointless to try and describe what is happening. Hopefully, though, the descriptions and discussion will provide us all with adquate roughage to ruminate over. ;) Happiness is a full mind and empty bowels. Regards, Mike Sigman |
Re: How to teach and train relaxation
My problem with the chain analogy is this: have you ever tried to push a chain? Don't work.
Catenary arch is lovely, describes the arch of my foot perhaps - but you are missing the point of balanced tension and compression - in a vertical pole tied down with three or four lines for example. That's a better description of what makes us stand up - look at this picture: http://wwwhome.cs.utwente.nl/~jagers...tensegrity.jpg Dave btw - having a great time with this.dk |
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation
thanks! brings tears to my eyes.
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In contact, this is like sending a wave down a rope or chain, and a wave is just translated rotation. And as I indicated above, there is one and only one way to push on a chain, and only assuming the chain wants to be pushed. So, if in katatedori he is not pushing in the shape of a chain to begin with, he cannot push you by your arm (unless he takes the same shape). basically you progressively form the shape of the falling chain in reverse progating that shape (in compression and rotation) to him in kokyu. The wrist rotates, the elbow rotates the shoulder rotates --all in the same direction,. his shape gradually changes in the same incremental way but with different effects. All this time he has been pushing, and you have been the "falling chain in reverse" with incremental rotations like the falling joint of the chain, he has basically pushed himself up and back, creating his own reaction (arch thrust) from his push. But his structure is progressively rotated out of alignment with the plane of his push. So he has formed his own mutally opposed offset forces, a couple, and starts to rotate further. Instead of the fixed end of the chain hanging in tension at his shoulder as with the falling chain example, the fixed end is in compression (you form an inverted arch of your paired arms) and his shoulder pops up. As you continue the motion and rotations his shoulder cannot rise further and then his elbow buckles in the compression of his own push, and pops up, etc. etc. etc. Like a chain falling link by link off a table under its own weight -- but in reverse, his arm and torso rise and pop over from his own push. To anticipate the objection -- I can maintain compression while moving with the impinging force -- that is not resistance. You adapt your shape and continue the rotations of your joints to mimic the falling chain (upwards), and he rotates more, etc. etc. etc. skewing himself in three dimensions. At some point it all reverses at the top and he gets cut down in ikkyo by the reverse motion uncoiling all the above back at him. So your cosine vector thought is not too far off the waves of rotations he is receiving, but the control methodology you advocate at the begining tends to the resistant mode, which is the problem I have with it. Quote:
But seriously, I doubt they were able to resist his atemi too much ... ;) One cannot strike or grab without rotating a limb in at least one of three planes-- it is hardly a reach that blending with and manipulating them necessarily involves rotations also. Quote:
I've felt it and analogized it that way for years, but it took some fairly serious pondering to come to an understanding that indeed the same mechanics are operating and do operate in both the tension and compression load regimes. Everything I have said operates equally in the classic tension chain regime, and there are many techniques that use that. The probem for training is that techniques using these principles in tension tend to awaken the hind-brain monkey pulling instinct, which destroys the classic chain shape by popping it into a tight line for which rotations (in torsion) while very possibole and powerful, are far more difficult to manipulate and to see directly. |
Re: How to teach and train relaxation
Well, I'd be interested in seeing you implement that, Erick. It's certainly not what I do and what I know of in Asian martial arts. Maybe O-Sensei was misleading us with that "Ki of Heaven" and "Ki of Earth" stuff. ;)
Regards, Mike Sigman |
Re: How to teach and train relaxation
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Mike |
Re: How to teach and train relaxation
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The shape is super-critically stable and therefore it requires continual adaptive adjustment to maintain it. That is why kokyu as martial expression is so difficult for an enemy to counter, it is so variable and adaptively unstable that he can never find his line. Quote:
Spine = tensegrity. Amen, brother. But the mechanics of kokyu are not explained by that fasincating model of static structure. The "smart" chain does. Tensegrity does not explain either the tegatana shape as a critical element of kokyu or its flip side of Hiji-riki. The "smart" chain does. |
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The real problem is that there is an element of fascial structures involved in what the ki things do. It's not just the bone and muscle mechanics involved in the equation of Ki... there are some intereactions between the fascial structures, the autonomic functions, and so forth. In other words, an analysis of body mechanics in the basic kinesiology sense, isn't really accurate. So Ueshiba couldn't do such a modern analysis and even if he could, it wouldn't be accurate. If there are factors in the equation that you don't understand, I'd suggest that your understanding of jin and kokyu is probably off. Maybe if you attempted a simpler analysis to make your point, as a starter, and explained to some of the people who attended Ushiro Sensei's workshop what it was that they felt that was so odd in some of Ushiro's pushes, pokes, and other techniques? It would be a good start. As it is, your analysis makes no differentiation between normal body mechanics and the mechanics of "ki". Regards, Mike Sigman |
Re: How to teach and train relaxation
I am new in the Aikido world, so I can just tell you what I can see in my personal "little" experience. I have done Tai Chi for some time, but not as martial art, where like in Aikido you have to be relaxed. I thought I had reached relaxation pretty well till I started Aikido. Seeing someone in fron of you who is actually trying to punch you (even tho you know he/she would stop if you miss the technique) creates a natural tension which is not easy to defeat.
Anyway I have noticed that the longer I practice a technique and the more I get confident with it and am aware of how effective it is, the more I can wait for the attack in a relaxed way and counter attack in a relaxed way. Of course reaching a complete relaxation will take a long time, it is not something you learn in a couple of days. But confidence in your knowledge helps alot. But watch out, coz too much confidence is not good either, it will naturally lower your attention to what is going on around you. As per the use of Ki/Chi. I have read a book from a kung fu/Tai Chi Master (Dr.Yang) once. In his book he has an interesting theory in which he explains how the so called soft Martial Arts work their way through a long training to reach a harder style of fight, while the so called hard martial arts on the opposite work their way through long training to a more soft style of fight. According this theory there is a point in which all the Arts to be complete meet, losing the distinction of soft and hard. |
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I once accidently coined a term. I was trying to say "relaxed action" but it came out "relaxtion"... it has since stuck :D Bronson |
Re: How to teach and train relaxation
Hi folks,
Can I please request that people try to make an explicit connection in their posts to the original intent of the thread? In this case, the original questions posed were: Quote:
-- Jun |
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You have an impression that makes sense for your training imagery, which is fine. Whatever works. I am not addressing the pysycho-somatic efficiency. There is much to do there that I cannot address. I assume that the mechanism of relaxed adpatation is dynamic, non-linear and actively controlled. I assume it is relaxed and yet still capable of bearing loads. I do not assume that the system is static or linear. I am working on the mechanical model that the adaptive system is actually working on to adapt. An objective mechanical description may enable other means of impoving training or explaining technique. Quote:
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In other words, I think the power of your methods lies, not in your assumed mechnics, but in the psycho-somatic process you use, to which any connection to actual mechanics may be completely irrelevant, as it is for singing coaches, the imagery is all you need for qualitative adjustments. I don't agree with the ends you put it to in terms of aikido, but I have no basis to contest its effectiveness in its own terms otherwise. |
Re: How to teach and train relaxation
are you guys all too chicken to just SAY what it is?
I know you've all felt it, but maybe words fail you, and you enjoy floundering about the semantic morass with the likes of Eric Mead. Total relaxation in Aikido equals: let go. Let go of trying to be a separate entity, apart from the world/universe. Let go of your ego, your ego thoughts, tension created by trying to defend or protect your image or status or appearance as an aikidoka or martial artist. let go mentally, relax, let go physically, relax, and become one with (or realize the oneness already there) the universe. You are the universe and it is you, moving, breathing, relaxed, powerful, in contention with nothing or no one. At peace in unified movement. let go of everything, so you can be one with everything and everything can be one with you. quote from Aikido Journal: AJ: What was the most important thing you learned from Morihei Ueshiba? Toihei Sensei: The way people most talk about ki these days tends toward the occultish, but I will say that I have never done anything even remotely involving the occult. Much of what Ueshiba Sensei talked about, on the other hand, did sound like the occult. In any case, I began studying aikido because I saw that Ueshiba Sensei had truly mastered the art of relaxing. It was because he was relaxed, in fact, that he could generate so much power. I became his student with the intention of learning that from him. __________________________________ and there you have it. Straight from the mouth of the highest ranked Aikido student in the history of the art, referring to its founder. How about instead of pontificating on how this 10th Dan must have been 'wrong' and you can't really 'totally relax', just go out and investigate for yourselves and try it. |
Re: How to teach and train relaxation
Thanks Wayne. Good advice.
Personally, all this ties together for me - the tensegrity, etc., because for years when I relaxed past a certain point I started screaming. Currently, I can relax past that point and I only get dizzy. I was very painfully injured 25 years ago, and I just don't have a normal nervous system. So, my method of training is to do 'standing like a tree' chi kung. I do physical therapy several times a year via a rolfer and a chiropractor with neurophysical training, and I use tensegrity merely as a model for understanding how 'open space' in my body, not maintaining a death grip around an old injury, is my path to healing and relaxation. Peace david |
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So it's not a matter of "no one has demonstrated they are not (normal body mechanics)" .... why not just say that you yourself are unaware of any unusual body mechanics? That happens to be a point I have been making repeatedly to you for some time. You don't know this stuff. If your analysis misses the point, then the comments about relaxation in relation to your analysis are negligible. However, to be clear, I think that any conversation about this stuff has to reach out and touch a number of issues. Regards, Mike Sigman |
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