What is Aiki? Introduction to a method of analyzing Aiki. (Part 3)
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Re: What is Aiki? Introduction to a method of analyzing Aiki. (Part 3)
If one is objective, one must consider the possibility that Takahashi had no understanding of aiki whatsoever... After reading the trilogy that is certainly the impression that I am left with.
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Re: What is Aiki? Introduction to a method of analyzing Aiki. (Part 3)
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Best, Chris |
Re: What is Aiki? Introduction to a method of analyzing Aiki. (Part 3)
Can't really see much in there but I like the fact he sees it as the - “Way of Aiki” (合気の道)" aiki no michi - as that is the way I see it and is what I pursue.
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Re: What is Aiki? Introduction to a method of analyzing Aiki. (Part 3)
I don't think his vagueness is intentional, as some of the things he states are absolutely misleading. Unless, of course, he is being misleading intentionally...
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Re: What is Aiki? Introduction to a method of analyzing Aiki. (Part 3)
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Given that Takahashi trained with Kimura in all of the gen it's hard to believe, that he shouldn't have a clue, but there you have it. |
Re: What is Aiki? Introduction to a method of analyzing Aiki. (Part 3)
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Re: What is Aiki? Introduction to a method of analyzing Aiki. (Part 3)
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Re: What is Aiki? Introduction to a method of analyzing Aiki. (Part 3)
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"For example, even in seated techniques, one cannot apply Aiki only through the movement of the hands. The hands are supported by the trunk and the lower body. There are also such teachings as "keep your body straight", "don't move your hips" and "put power into your lower abdomen". So he's not focussing on the hands. In fact, if you read carefully, he doesn't even talk about the hands being important, he talks about the wrists. Yes he's vague, but at least he does allude to specific points, unlike, for example, Kimura. . BTW, I've never even seen Takahashi, so I have no opinions on his abilities/knowledge of "Aiki" one way or the other, but, I'm a little surprised that people have been so dismissive. |
Re: What is Aiki? Introduction to a method of analyzing Aiki. (Part 3)
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As for being dismissive, there's a growing body of individuals who are training in aiki and learning very specific body methods. There is a vocabulary and a physical, technical curriculum that is quite focused. For those of us who have been practicing aiki for 15 years or longer, and have some skills and understanding, it's frustrating to read descriptions of aiki that only tangentially touch on it and lead the would-be student in the wrong direction, away from any glimmer of understanding. That said, I will say, as I always do, that it's great to have English-language access to these essays, if only for historic perspective and confirmation of our suspicions about the secrecy and restriction in transmission that has enshrouded both the heritage and legacy of Daito-ryu. |
Re: What is Aiki? Introduction to a method of analyzing Aiki. (Part 3)
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I agree with the lack of descriptive terminology, but to be honest, I can't see how "Aiki" can be passed on OTHER than through physical, intuitive transmission. It's a physical art. At best, you can glean hints and key points from other sources, especially if you have a base of reference established from training. Anyway, you stated that The author is misleading people, but I still can't see how. What exactly did he write that is completely off the mark? As far as I can see, at worst he is being vague. Quote:
Do you see my point? can't see exactly what Takahashi would have to have written in a fairly short article to have escaped the charge of vagueness. FWIW, that's the first time I have ever come across a specific piece referring to training the wrists at a "deeper" level. I think that would be of interest to people who spend so much time in training grabbing wrists (like people reading this forum). Quote:
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Re: What is Aiki? Introduction to a method of analyzing Aiki. (Part 3)
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This is an attitude that most have us have to be aware of, not least me! |
Re: What is Aiki? Introduction to a method of analyzing Aiki. (Part 3)
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to my mind "Aiki" is a very personal skill and so how you describe it may vary to your point of view, which will develop according to your ability. The point is, that you have to start somewhere. You have to surpass the threshold of not being able to do anything without resorting to usual power and physical technique to a state of being able to do something for the first time. You have to precondition your body for that a bit. The best thing I have seen so far on the internet to lead you there in a fairly rational way is what Sam Chin is doing in his videos. His is a very modern approach. You may not agree. Kimura is not intentionally vague, to my mind, because he has tried to give a clear as possible to him definition of "Aiki" as he saw it in 2005 via the french edition of his "My 20 years with..", but the translators, clearly, indicate that his view has already changed ever since. You might ask Stan Pranin about how Kimura felt to him, because he is supposed to have felt him on more than one occasion in the past. We may disagree about Kimura, but, as far as I can follow her, Cady as usually knows exactly what she is talking about.:) Best, Bernd |
Re: What is Aiki? Introduction to a method of analyzing Aiki. (Part 3)
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To accept that or not, is everyone's privilege. But it is what it is. |
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Re: What is Aiki? Introduction to a method of analyzing Aiki. (Part 3)
I dunno, it could be just as likely the speaker is trying to get at the point of saying "disregard the hands, connect the insides and put power here (the middle)". Translations and intentions get tricky, so I don't see the value in speculating too much whether he was intentionally obscuring things versus not having the vocabulary to articulate what's going on. I think there's more value in offering some input into what's missing (as opposed to proclaiming one's bonafides).
To use my own example, I'd say an important starting point is learning to connect one's body - HOW you do it may depend on your style and or desirable end result (wielding weapons, holding postures, etc.) but the general theme is that the body is connected together (bones, skin, muscles, tendons, ligaments) in such a way that when one part moves, all parts move (that movement may be big and visible or hidden). Certain postures, breathing, movements and light pressure practices can aid in learning to connect one's body (which is why many styles have practices that are common, with understandable twists [hehe pun], across systems - while also having their own proprietary methods). Putting power in the middle - if your body is connected in the way I start to describe, you can then draw upon more of the body's whole power to achieve things that seem either really strong, unusually strong, explosively strong, etc (depending on ability, conditioning, skill, etc.) and you can access that strength from seemingly strange positions, partly because you generate and source that strength (legs, middle, back) in a way that might seem counterintuitive e.g. move the middle down the leg to move the hand (it's CONNECTED you see??), but wait, you said HAND!! Darn, I meant . . yeah, language can sometimes get difficult, even when we're both speaking English. But then I think that's where some of the disconnects still reside in describing this stuff, internal strength, aiki, training practices of them versus applications of them. |
Re: What is Aiki? Introduction to a method of analyzing Aiki. (Part 3)
Good point, Budd. I do tend to think it is a language issue more than anything else. I keep looking for a very direct, to-the-point description, and much of what Sagawa's students write really are pretty abstract and roundabout in a way that you have to already be indoctrinated in the body method (as you are) to see the apparent allusions and connections.
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Re: What is Aiki? Introduction to a method of analyzing Aiki. (Part 3)
Yeah, I wonder if the combination of cultural and proprietary norms would allow for such a thing (direct, to-the-point descriptions) - even at the bottom of the linked article, he mentions that he's only describing a small portion of the secrets. I sway back and forth between folks leaving nuggets like that to encourage people to get out there and learn more for themselves, or it was a kind of code that people liked to drop to say "Look here, we're doing the real stuff, too" as they understood it.
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Re: What is Aiki? Introduction to a method of analyzing Aiki. (Part 3)
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Re: What is Aiki? Introduction to a method of analyzing Aiki. (Part 3)
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IMO Takahashi seems to emphasise the retraining of one's body/reflexes/nervous system so that you don't give the grasping opponent anything to work with. So you have this paradox, of keeping your intent throughout the body while not issuing any aggression (ie tension that the other can work with). He calls this "the containment of power" and explains that one should start exploring this paradox through "the internal senses contained within the wrist". So you need to "send intent" to the hands while at the same time neutralising the grab. To me, this seems to be an exercise for training the nervous system. |
Re: What is Aiki? Introduction to a method of analyzing Aiki. (Part 3)
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The nervous system training is an interesting vocabulary for what's going on - training the nervous system how? To relax completely, keep weight underside and focus on one point a la Tohei (though neither one completely gets at the heart with generalities, if you can bridge what Takahashi is hinting at in the articles with Tohei's more famous three maxims, the noose starts to tighten further around a better definition of how jin works, as opposed to what it is IMO)? As I mentioned before, I see a progression that often gets left out of 1) How to train the skill 2) How to condition the skill 3) How to apply the skill (assuming there are set desirable parameters for the skill). There may very well be some sophisticated and organized methods for this that are preserved explicitly, but mostly I see some vague hints by historical and modern parties proclaiming that they or their teachers have/had the keys to the kingdom and the rest of us can guess at what they meant vs. what they knew. So that being said, I don't disagree with the nervous system description (as a piece of the puzzle) - but how would you say it's being trained and towards what desirable outcome (to specifically enable the abilities of neutralizing external force while being able to send intent as tangible activity)? |
Re: What is Aiki? Introduction to a method of analyzing Aiki. (Part 3)
I personally would not to draw any conclusions from isolated models of aiki as presented in these articles and in many posts here in Aikiweb (they can be useful if you have the required background) -- physics diagrams, "lever" actions, any focus on a particular body part (toes, wrists, etc.) -- because unless you've been educated in the whole-body model they're meaningless as learning tools (and can mislead others into "oh I already do that" type responses). Take for example the Sagawa-related diagram showing the forces balancing on a "support". Looks easy, but without a background discussion of dantian/hara and connection, any mention of "support" is meaningless. The way I see it any illustration of say an arm interacting with a force should be accompanied with a whole-body model explanation of how aiki is enabled and can be expressed via the arm: what the other arm is doing, what the legs, dantian, spine, etc., are doing. Yeah, it's a lot of academic work and perhaps unfeasible to go into that level of detail, but that's why it has to be learned in person (IHTBF :D).
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Re: What is Aiki? Introduction to a method of analyzing Aiki. (Part 3)
Oh I dunno, I think it would be fun to go into that level of detail - partially why I started with the connecting the body bits and then using whole power to move them together. Please feel free to elaborate on the legs, spine and dantian :)
And for the record I do agree that it has to both be felt and learned in person. That doesn't mean you can't casually talk shop and speculate what nuggets or bread crumbs might be left on the trail for others to follow ;) |
Re: What is Aiki? Introduction to a method of analyzing Aiki. (Part 3)
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So do I. In fact, worse still, I like double blind tests.:cool: @all: Here's the attempt of a straightforward explanation and sober analysis written by a woman who had apparently dedicated a good part of her entire life to the study of Tai Chi as a martial art. None of the usual unintelligible sometimes rather uninformed stuff, which is not logically deductible and has never been concretely verified. What do you think of it, in comparison to Takahashis approach? http://www.martialtaichi.co.uk/artic...uide_to_qi.php Best, Bernd |
Re: What is Aiki? Introduction to a method of analyzing Aiki. (Part 3)
Bernd, thanks for linking the article. I think it goes a way towards touching on the classic notions of the qi of man and earth (using gravity/ground in the Jin sense for applications). The two biggest gaps I saw were around the descriptions how to connect the body together in such a way that when one part moves, all parts move -- and of breath and how it works within a connected body also using jin strength.
So again, it's impossible to know for sure if this represents the sum total of the writer's knowledge or if they're only choosing to reveal certain things. The other thing (and this is true of any of us writing here), is that even if we can speak or articulate, it should not be taken as an indicator of how well we DO it (totally owning up to that on my end at least). But overall I think this is more in the right direction of a how's it work from a beginning Jin perspective, even if the descriptions might be confusing if you're not already familiar with some of the cosmological references as they pertain to applied movement in the body. |
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