Re: Locking/pinning as pain submission...
 

I agree that starting iriminage is darn difficult once's uke's weight is forwards and down. That shikaku (blind side position) is important but not enough by itself. From there, I find I have to lead their head up and forward by rotating around my thumb (like a low punch) and that only really extends the arc of their initial attack. I have found it very hard to use that hand behind their neck to move their body sideways at all (I know some can do it, but when I try it's just pulling). I use my other hand between their shoulder and elbow to make the cut that sets their direction to start rotating around me - but the power of that technique - in my opinion - is stepping back when the arm (that's connected totheir neck) is about 90-95% extended. When that void feeling does the work, it's darn difficult to counter the technique. And I suppose that's what my point (and several others I've agreed with here have been getting to ) - that if you do things directly in a low level way people will have many opportunities to counter you, but if you come up with a more sophistocated way to control their center then counter/reversal is much more difficult. I agree that calling things "pain submissions" is not the ideal way to express the idea because it seems to point a bit too directly at the surface level. (That'd be akin to calling iriminage the "pull'em down from the blind side" technique which would do more harm to aikido then anything else.) I'd say calling it a "pin" or a "control" is a more useful expression.

Rob

Re: Locking/pinning as pain submission...
 

Sorry, I meant: like a SLOW punch

Re: Locking/pinning as pain submission...
 

IMHO, that "confident throw down" is more a result of the ukemi than the throw. During a dynamic iriminage, Uke was not able to stay close enough to nage to minimize the rotational force, completely loses his balance, and falls forward onto all fours.

If you control uke's head, and "attach" it to your shoulder as you turn, it's possible to turn faster than uke can adjust for - rather than breaking his neck, you stay in control, but allow the uke to recover his center a bit so you can complete the throw. If you are not in control of uke throughout the "throw-down," he can counter or escape, though. If uke decides to stay low and try to take out my knees :confused: , I'll glady drop my weight onto him and end the attack then and there (aiki-jitsu style) :p ; if he pops up, we can play some more - and finish the iriminage, perhaps. :D