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-   -   Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc. (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20024)

Mike Sigman 07-07-2011 05:07 PM
Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Just for general discussion:

"Internal Strength" is a loose translation of the term "Nei Jin" (roughly: "Internal Trained Force Skill"). The point is that "neijin" is a very common term, so "Internal Strength" would be the closest translation that is generally suitable.

"Internal Power" I don't know anything about, but it seems to be a term that is a square peg in a round hole.

"Fa Jin" is also sometimes loosely intermixed with "Fa Li". "Fa Jin" is literally "attack jin"; "Fa Li" is literally "attack strength".... the implication in both is a *whole body shaking issuance of strength*. "Li" by itself is just the word for strength and often implies normal muscular strength.

"AiKi" implies a 'mixing of ki-strength' or a 'mixing of ki'. All strength and movement comes from ki in the body (which is interrelated with fascial strength), so a weight lifter can have 'strong ki', but he may not be able to manipulate that ki in the optimal way with his hara/middle/dantien. So if the aforementioned weight-lifter attacks someone who is skilled in 'internal strenght', there could be a mixing of forces which in turn defeats the weight-lifter. Hence, "Ai Ki".

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Chris Li 07-07-2011 05:45 PM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: (Post 287334)
Just for general discussion:

"Internal Strength" is a loose translation of the term "Nei Jin" (roughly: "Internal Trained Force Skill"). The point is that "neijin" is a very common term, so "Internal Strength" would be the closest translation that is generally suitable.

"Internal Power" I don't know anything about, but it seems to be a term that is a square peg in a round hole.

"Fa Jin" is also sometimes loosely intermixed with "Fa Li". "Fa Jin" is literally "attack jin"; "Fa Li" is literally "attack strength".... the implication in both is a *whole body shaking issuance of strength*. "Li" by itself is just the word for strength and often implies normal muscular strength.

"AiKi" implies a 'mixing of ki-strength' or a 'mixing of ki'. All strength and movement comes from ki in the body (which is interrelated with fascial strength), so a weight lifter can have 'strong ki', but he may not be able to manipulate that ki in the optimal way with his hara/middle/dantien. So if the aforementioned weight-lifter attacks someone who is skilled in 'internal strenght', there could be a mixing of forces which in turn defeats the weight-lifter. Hence, "Ai Ki".

FWIW

Mike Sigman
I don't think that I would say "mixing" in terms of the character for "ai" - maybe "combined" would be more literally accurate...

Best,

Chris

graham christian 07-07-2011 05:50 PM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Mike.
You've spurred my interest again.

The terms and definitions are very clear and I learned something. I only have this question though:

Who said this is Aiki? Is that a personal view?

Plus Aiki implying a mixing of Ki or mixing of ki strength . Who said that? Is that a personal view, an internal arts view?

Regards.G.

Mike Sigman 07-07-2011 05:52 PM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: (Post 287338)
I don't think that I would say "mixing" in terms of the character for "ai" - maybe "combined" would be more literally accurate...
Fair enough, Chris, although the implication (as I meant it) is the same.

Mike

ChrisHein 07-07-2011 05:57 PM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: (Post 287334)
"AiKi" implies a 'mixing of ki-strength' or a 'mixing of ki'. All strength and movement comes from ki in the body (which is interrelated with fascial strength), so a weight lifter can have 'strong ki', but he may not be able to manipulate that ki in the optimal way with his hara/middle/dantien. So if the aforementioned weight-lifter attacks someone who is skilled in 'internal strenght', there could be a mixing of forces which in turn defeats the weight-lifter. Hence, "Ai Ki".
I think this definition of Aiki is not in alignment with what most of those who practice Aikido would call Aiki.

Mike Sigman 07-07-2011 06:00 PM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: (Post 287339)
Plus Aiki implying a mixing of Ki or mixing of ki strength . Who said that? Is that a personal view, an internal arts view?
It's an ancient and commonly used concept, Graham. While it's a revelation to most westerners, the concept of blending/mixing/combining with an opponent's "ki", it's a concept that has been around thousands of years. Reading the classics and being around Asian martial arts, Ueshiba would well have been acquainted with the term/idea. What's interesting is that once you understand the concept and think "Voila!", you begin to look around and say, "wait a minute.... I wonder if the old translation of 'using the opponent's strength' may have been more to the point of what they were saying?". In other words, there were lots of giveaways like "kuzushi" and "using the opponent's strength", but we all took them to mean the physical stuff that we could relate to in our own ignorance.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman 07-07-2011 06:01 PM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: (Post 287341)
I think this definition of Aiki is not in alignment with what most of those who practice Aikido would call Aiki.
I totally agree.

Mike

Chris Li 07-07-2011 06:15 PM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: (Post 287340)
Fair enough, Chris, although the implication (as I meant it) is the same.

Mike
Oh, I agree, I was just struck by the linguistic details :) .

Best,

Chris

David Orange 07-07-2011 06:45 PM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: (Post 287334)
..."Fa Jin" is also sometimes loosely intermixed with "Fa Li". "Fa Jin" is literally "attack jin"; "Fa Li" is literally "attack strength".... the implication in both is a *whole body shaking issuance of strength*. "Li" by itself is just the word for strength and often implies normal muscular strength.
Walking back from the grocer's just a moment ago, I thought of a big point that differentiates the "internal" methods from "external" or "non-internal" forms. And that is that attacking methods in the "external" forms like most karate (I won't say "all" karate) cause damage to the outside of the opponent's body in order to damage the inside of his body. But internal forms can damage the inside of the opponent's body without making a mark or causing clear damage to the outside of the body (i.e., rupturing internal organs without breaking the protective bones around them).

What do you think?

David

graham christian 07-07-2011 07:52 PM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: (Post 287342)
It's an ancient and commonly used concept, Graham. While it's a revelation to most westerners, the concept of blending/mixing/combining with an opponent's "ki", it's a concept that has been around thousands of years. Reading the classics and being around Asian martial arts, Ueshiba would well have been acquainted with the term/idea. What's interesting is that once you understand the concept and think "Voila!", you begin to look around and say, "wait a minute.... I wonder if the old translation of 'using the opponent's strength' may have been more to the point of what they were saying?". In other words, there were lots of giveaways like "kuzushi" and "using the opponent's strength", but we all took them to mean the physical stuff that we could relate to in our own ignorance.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
That's what I question. The term, not the idea. I've seen it mentioned to do with 'some' arts way back and never exactly the same.

The mixing, blending, combining? These words may well have been used in certain arts in the past and even today but they are not the terms mostly used by O'Sensei and thus his meaning for AI KI or even Ki.

He most usually used the words harmonizing, harmonizes.

The logic that O'Sensei knew about these historical and oriental views means that's what he meant is what I always disagree with for to me it's patently obvious he didn't.

That's why I like to find out what your view of Aiki is as different from O'Senseis not to make yours wrong but to see the difference.

It's simple really. Aiki prior to his AIKIDO had a meaning obviously and was no doubt to do with to whatever degree what you say. That's all good and useful to know and do and thus help make sense of some of Aikido.

However, his explanations of Aiki and bu and Budo and Ki were different and it's that difference which made Aikido. Such is my view.

I'm also learning from this that there are descriptions of heart, thus desire leads mind leads ki etc. Once again I then understand where others get these Ideas from and no doubt these are old chinese concepts from various arts.

However I have never heard or read of O'Sensei or Koichi Tohei giving that sequence or holding that belief. In fact Tohei said the sequence is simply spirit-mind-body or ki-mind-body.

This indeed may have led to those old heated debates between chinese and japanese as to Ki being different to chi.

This will at least give you how some in Aikido relate to Aiki and thus see other views of it as different and belonging to something else, whether it helps Aikido or not.

It's all interesting nonetheless.

Regards.G.

Chris Li 07-07-2011 08:06 PM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: (Post 287353)
The mixing, blending, combining? These words may well have been used in certain arts in the past and even today but they are not the terms mostly used by O'Sensei and thus his meaning for AI KI or even Ki.

He most usually used the words harmonizing, harmonizes.
Well, Ueshiba did sometimes use the term "harmonize", but much more often that's a mistranslation of the kanji for "Ai", which doesn't really mean "harmonize" in the sense that native English speakers usually use it.

Best,

Chris

Mike Sigman 07-07-2011 08:20 PM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Quote:
David Orange wrote: (Post 287347)
Walking back from the grocer's just a moment ago, I thought of a big point that differentiates the "internal" methods from "external" or "non-internal" forms. And that is that attacking methods in the "external" forms like most karate (I won't say "all" karate) cause damage to the outside of the opponent's body in order to damage the inside of his body. But internal forms can damage the inside of the opponent's body without making a mark or causing clear damage to the outside of the body (i.e., rupturing internal organs without breaking the protective bones around them).

What do you think?
I think that it's a separate discussion, David. I know *why* "internal strength" can do these things, but since I know it will be something "taught for the last 20 years" by some people, I leave it for them to explain now rather than after the fact. :D

Mike

Mike Sigman 07-07-2011 08:23 PM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: (Post 287354)
Well, Ueshiba did sometimes use the term "harmonize", but much more often that's a mistranslation of the kanji for "Ai", which doesn't really mean "harmonize" in the sense that native English speakers usually use it.
Actually, Chris, "combine" is perfect for what he meant. Or "vector addition". The problem becomes, as you can see, that the intention of the words is often very clean, but the knowledge of the translator is often very sparse. Once a translator understands the gist of jin/kokyu, a lot of these seeming mysteries boil down not to the "hidden secrets", but to the translator's lack of background.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

JW 07-07-2011 11:08 PM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: (Post 287353)
The mixing, blending, combining? These words may well have been used in certain arts in the past and even today but they are not the terms mostly used by O'Sensei and thus his meaning for AI KI or even Ki.

He most usually used the words harmonizing, harmonizes.
Wait, wait. The fact is he didn't use "harmonizing" or "harmonizes" at all! He used Japanese words, and you are talking about somebody's translations of that. Plus he used religious terminology. And he used references to the ancient literature. It is questionable for those of us who don't speak Japanese to say that "harmonize" is the correct translation and mix, blend, or combine are incorrect. But beyond the language issue, there is still far from a "correct answer" due to the strange terminology he used.

I don't want to put words in O-sensei's mouth. I don't have any agenda. But I really think we have a lot of work to do regarding understanding what he meant. So we do need to have these conversations. And we need to trace the kind of things that he said through a lot of mess in order to arrive at good translations.

Looking at the traditional meanings of neijin-related terms that O-sensei would have read is a good way to do it, and the cultural, historical, and religious analysis that people like Peter Goldsbury, Stan Pranin, and Ellis Amdur do is also an important and necessary task.

graham christian 07-08-2011 12:07 AM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: (Post 287354)
Well, Ueshiba did sometimes use the term "harmonize", but much more often that's a mistranslation of the kanji for "Ai", which doesn't really mean "harmonize" in the sense that native English speakers usually use it.

Best,

Chris
Says who? I know of times he said so maybe even five times in one explanation.

No mistranslation. I don't buy this historian knows best logic. Historians gather data and should just give their data, which Stanley Pranin for example is good at. His opinion however or any persons opinion given to him is that only. Any conclusions drawn are coloured by the personal beliefs and understandings.

Kanji can mean this and that. One word can have many meanings. Mostly I've seen that just as a way of avoiding what he said because people including those there at the time didn't understand what the word means even if he was to print it on their heads. They can't relate it to what he did so he must mean something else type of logic.

Some or even much of what he said was either translated by someone close to him, in the same time as he was saying it and who understood English very well thank you very much. No looking back years later, no lack of understanding him as a person, no Kanji.

Finally, using Ai when I was explaining Ki and what he said about Ki in respect to harmony shows another misinterpretation in english let alone japanese. ( a response to Mikes view of mixing ki, blending,)

Regards.G.

graham christian 07-08-2011 12:34 AM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: (Post 287367)
Wait, wait. The fact is he didn't use "harmonizing" or "harmonizes" at all! He used Japanese words, and you are talking about somebody's translations of that. Plus he used religious terminology. And he used references to the ancient literature. It is questionable for those of us who don't speak Japanese to say that "harmonize" is the correct translation and mix, blend, or combine are incorrect. But beyond the language issue, there is still far from a "correct answer" due to the strange terminology he used.

I don't want to put words in O-sensei's mouth. I don't have any agenda. But I really think we have a lot of work to do regarding understanding what he meant. So we do need to have these conversations. And we need to trace the kind of things that he said through a lot of mess in order to arrive at good translations.

Looking at the traditional meanings of neijin-related terms that O-sensei would have read is a good way to do it, and the cultural, historical, and religious analysis that people like Peter Goldsbury, Stan Pranin, and Ellis Amdur do is also an important and necessary task.
Sorry Jonathan but he did say. Hikitsuchi could repeat much of what O'Sensei said word for word for example. No mistranslation.
Tohei spoke good English. His son made sure of the proper translations as he was there to translate.

When it comes to religion and people trying to analyse it and compare this way and that invariably they miss what's staring them in the face. How can they analyse love and compassion and humility when they don't even know what it is in their own language? I don't know of a religion where the major enlightened people of it didn't say and preach about the power of love and compassion ans spirit, call it holy spirit, prana or whatever. The same words in many languages given over and over as lessons that few discipline themselves to understand. No mistranslation.

I could take maybe ten sentences from a thirty sentence piece and ask someone to demonstrate it. Most couldn't. I suppose all ten sentences must have had different meanings then. mmmm. Don't think so. You can relate them to whenever, whoever, however but the fact is you don't understand them.

As a famous modern seer said in music, 'don't believe the hype..'
ha, ha.

Regards.G.

Chris Li 07-08-2011 12:53 AM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: (Post 287371)
Says who? I know of times he said so maybe even five times in one explanation.

No mistranslation. I don't buy this historian knows best logic. Historians gather data and should just give their data, which Stanley Pranin for example is good at. His opinion however or any persons opinion given to him is that only. Any conclusions drawn are coloured by the personal beliefs and understandings.

Kanji can mean this and that. One word can have many meanings. Mostly I've seen that just as a way of avoiding what he said because people including those there at the time didn't understand what the word means even if he was to print it on their heads. They can't relate it to what he did so he must mean something else type of logic.

Some or even much of what he said was either translated by someone close to him, in the same time as he was saying it and who understood English very well thank you very much. No looking back years later, no lack of understanding him as a person, no Kanji.

Finally, using Ai when I was explaining Ki and what he said about Ki in respect to harmony shows another misinterpretation in english let alone japanese. ( a response to Mikes view of mixing ki, blending,)

Regards.G.
Says me - a professional translator. I've read everything Morihei Ueshiba ever published in the original Japanese, and I've translated for a number of the principles. I'd be happy to discuss specifics, if you have examples and can understand Japanese.

Best,

Chris

JW 07-08-2011 01:03 AM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
But the fact is he said :ai: and :ai: :ki:, rather than specifically chosing "harmonize" instead of "combine" or "merge" or any other English term. The folks you mention translated as they did, that I will not argue, and there must have been some reason for the 10th dan rank promotions. But Tohei openly dismissed the way O-sensei presented his thoughts (in terms of kami, etc. see his interviews), so are we really entertaining the idea that Tohei fully respected the intricacies of the religious overtones in O-sensei's lectures? Combined with the famous "when I look back, no one is following me" comment from O-sensei, I do think it remains to be demonstrated if anyone ever has really understood and interpreted for us the entirety of what O-sensei said. Point being-- I don't see any one english term being correct when translating terms like aiki.

But... this is the non-aikido forum. The terms in the OP are the point. Mike, "aiki" and "IP" are the only terms in your list that are not directly related to Chinese (or older) usage. I get conceptually how aiki fits, but is there any direct link just in terms of terminology?

chillzATL 07-08-2011 06:20 AM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: (Post 287371)
Says who? I know of times he said so maybe even five times in one explanation.

No mistranslation. I don't buy this historian knows best logic. Historians gather data and should just give their data, which Stanley Pranin for example is good at. His opinion however or any persons opinion given to him is that only. Any conclusions drawn are coloured by the personal beliefs and understandings.

Kanji can mean this and that. One word can have many meanings. Mostly I've seen that just as a way of avoiding what he said because people including those there at the time didn't understand what the word means even if he was to print it on their heads. They can't relate it to what he did so he must mean something else type of logic.

Some or even much of what he said was either translated by someone close to him, in the same time as he was saying it and who understood English very well thank you very much. No looking back years later, no lack of understanding him as a person, no Kanji.

Finally, using Ai when I was explaining Ki and what he said about Ki in respect to harmony shows another misinterpretation in english let alone japanese. ( a response to Mikes view of mixing ki, blending,)

Regards.G.
Are you saying that you think Ueshiba's concept of aiki was different from everyone elses? He felt that his aiki, when he was calling it aiki-jujitsu, aiki-bujitsu, or aiki-budo and especially when someone else named it aikido for him, was different than Takeda's when he started calling it aiki-jujitsu? Or when Sagawa mentions his father taking notes about what Takeda was teaching them and writing "apply aiki here", that this was all somehow different than what Ueshiba, who learned of aiki from the same place, considered his aiki to be?

Mike Sigman 07-08-2011 07:28 AM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: (Post 287375)
But Tohei openly dismissed the way O-sensei presented his thoughts (in terms of kami, etc. see his interviews), so are we really entertaining the idea that Tohei fully respected the intricacies of the religious overtones in O-sensei's lectures?
Good point and it speaks to Graham's interpretation of kokyu as universal love. Kokyu has to do with a special type of trained force skill and you can call it love or donkey or lemonade, but it is what it is, despite any terminology changes. Tohei was saying that in his interview where Ueshiba referred to Kami but Tohei dismissed it as simply dropping of the center. In that case they could both do a certain I.S. trick and knew how to do it, but Ueshiba artificially painted the trick with Kami. Was he wrong to do so? Who cares, as long as he could do the trick correctly? If he couldn't do the trick correctly but did something else and called it Kami, that would not make it the same I.S. trick. The same idea holds true with calling "Kokyu" "universal love"..... the discussion is moot unless actual kokyu skill is being used, isn't it?

2 cents.

Mike

graham christian 07-08-2011 10:16 AM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: (Post 287384)
Are you saying that you think Ueshiba's concept of aiki was different from everyone elses? He felt that his aiki, when he was calling it aiki-jujitsu, aiki-bujitsu, or aiki-budo and especially when someone else named it aikido for him, was different than Takeda's when he started calling it aiki-jujitsu? Or when Sagawa mentions his father taking notes about what Takeda was teaching them and writing "apply aiki here", that this was all somehow different than what Ueshiba, who learned of aiki from the same place, considered his aiki to be?
Yes. I am.

So does everyone else who was there at the time. Why do you think he was such a phenomenon? Because it was the same ?

Most admit they didn't understand him and they all spoke Japanese. So obviously it was not only different but outside of their definitions of Aiki.

How can you take a 'fact' like someone gave him the name 'Aikido' and say that means x,y,z? That thinking treats him like an idiot as if he would just accept any name and wasn't too interested.

Basically, the past to do with fighting you can understand and 'physical ki' you can sort of get but that's as far as most go. Just admit he went much further than that and stated it was nothing to do with the thinking of the past or how you would like to translate it so you could relate it to other things.

Every time he was asked if it's like this or that in judo, or if he learned it from Takeda, or if it's sen no sen, etc. he answered no.
Maybe translaters can't translate no.

Regards.G.

graham christian 07-08-2011 10:37 AM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: (Post 287375)
But the fact is he said :ai: and :ai: :ki:, rather than specifically chosing "harmonize" instead of "combine" or "merge" or any other English term. The folks you mention translated as they did, that I will not argue, and there must have been some reason for the 10th dan rank promotions. But Tohei openly dismissed the way O-sensei presented his thoughts (in terms of kami, etc. see his interviews), so are we really entertaining the idea that Tohei fully respected the intricacies of the religious overtones in O-sensei's lectures? Combined with the famous "when I look back, no one is following me" comment from O-sensei, I do think it remains to be demonstrated if anyone ever has really understood and interpreted for us the entirety of what O-sensei said. Point being-- I don't see any one english term being correct when translating terms like aiki.

But... this is the non-aikido forum. The terms in the OP are the point. Mike, "aiki" and "IP" are the only terms in your list that are not directly related to Chinese (or older) usage. I get conceptually how aiki fits, but is there any direct link just in terms of terminology?
The folks translated as they did because they were there and understood the context and tones with which he was speaking so you cannot get better, plus they trained with him and were entrusted to do so by him.

You can search for something that someone ie: Tohei, dismissed and try to use that to serve some idea if you like and then everyone can say 'even Tohei said' How silly can you get.

It wasn't Toheis way of presentation. Tohei was not of that religion. So it's obvious rather than an example. The one connecting factor that led Tohei, Hikitsuchi and others TO understand him was that they did a spiritual practice.

There's one famous teacher who explains quite clearly the reasons why he and others couldn't understand what O'Sensei was on about and says it was because of the time difference and not knowing or understanding the old religious tales etc. He then goes on to say he finally understood only after studying zen, a spiritual activity. Others will know of whom I speak as I can't remember exactly who that was.

It's not a matter of translating a word literally it's a matter of understanding conceptually. To understand conceptually you thus have to increase your spiritual awareness.

Regards.G.

graham christian 07-08-2011 10:41 AM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: (Post 287387)
Good point and it speaks to Graham's interpretation of kokyu as universal love. Kokyu has to do with a special type of trained force skill and you can call it love or donkey or lemonade, but it is what it is, despite any terminology changes. Tohei was saying that in his interview where Ueshiba referred to Kami but Tohei dismissed it as simply dropping of the center. In that case they could both do a certain I.S. trick and knew how to do it, but Ueshiba artificially painted the trick with Kami. Was he wrong to do so? Who cares, as long as he could do the trick correctly? If he couldn't do the trick correctly but did something else and called it Kami, that would not make it the same I.S. trick. The same idea holds true with calling "Kokyu" "universal love"..... the discussion is moot unless actual kokyu skill is being used, isn't it?

2 cents.

Mike
Hi Mike. Was the term Kokyu used prior to O'Sensei in martial arts?

Regards.G.

Chris Li 07-08-2011 11:01 AM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: (Post 287397)
The folks translated as they did because they were there and understood the context and tones with which he was speaking so you cannot get better, plus they trained with him and were entrusted to do so by him.
The general rule of translation is that you always translate into your native language. The reason being that, even for very good non-native speakers, it's just too easy to slip up on the nuances.

Best,

Chris

Mike Sigman 07-08-2011 11:32 AM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: (Post 287400)
Hi Mike. Was the term Kokyu used prior to O'Sensei in martial arts?
Yes and it's used in other Japanese arts, also, and I'll guarantee you that the karate and koryu styles that do use the term didn't get it from Aikido. If nothing else, a commonly known (in the Aikido world) example would be the basic jin/kokyu things that Ikeda Sensei got from Ushiro (karate). Then too, other terms were also used to describe the various ki skills in Japanese martial-arts (Reiki pops to mind as another term for Kokyu).

Frankly, given the fact that Ueshiba came from a very traditional culture, I don't think that there would be much tolerance for people using traditional terms in any way that they see fit. It just wouldn't fly; there wasn't that "words mean what I want them to mean", etc., that you see in a lot of the current western counter-culture.

2 cents.

Mike Sigman

graham christian 07-08-2011 11:53 AM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: (Post 287408)
Yes and it's used in other Japanese arts, also, and I'll guarantee you that the karate and koryu styles that do use the term didn't get it from Aikido. If nothing else, a commonly known (in the Aikido world) example would be the basic jin/kokyu things that Ikeda Sensei got from Ushiro (karate). Then too, other terms were also used to describe the various ki skills in Japanese martial-arts (Reiki pops to mind as another term for Kokyu).

Frankly, given the fact that Ueshiba came from a very traditional culture, I don't think that there would be much tolerance for people using traditional terms in any way that they see fit. It just wouldn't fly; there wasn't that "words mean what I want them to mean", etc., that you see in a lot of the current western counter-culture.

2 cents.

Mike Sigman
Reiki and kokyu? I know about Reiki and Ki.

Anyway, If other arts have kokyu as a term thats fine, that's what I was asking. Thank you.

The reasoning to do with 'at the time' and 'cultural tolerance' is where i depart as far as Ueshiba is concerned. For want of a better word the whole phenomena of Ueshiba at the time was that he was a kind of martial arts rebel, not a conformist. So travelling that path never leads to him but only to the past.

Regards.G.

DH 07-08-2011 12:07 PM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: (Post 287397)
The folks translated as they did because they were there and understood the context and tones with which he was speaking so you cannot get better, plus they trained with him and were entrusted to do so by him....

....There's one famous teacher who explains quite clearly the reasons why he and others couldn't understand what O'Sensei was on about and says it was because of the time difference and not knowing or understanding the old religious tales etc. He then goes on to say he finally understood only after studying zen, a spiritual activity. Others will know of whom I speak as I can't remember exactly who that was.

It's not a matter of translating a word literally it's a matter of understanding conceptually. To understand conceptually you thus have to increase your spiritual awareness.
Regards.G.
Graham, your lack of understanding simply makes matters worse and really don't make any case worth having. In one paragraph you state THEY understood him because they trained with him, in another ...they couldn't understand till they went outside for spiritual awareness. Your argument is nonsense.

Arguing translation with Chris is rather ridiculous, you don't have the skills. I suggest you try asking him questions.

Translation
You fail to understand the difficulties in translating. As Chris has pointed out in rooms with native Japanese Budo-ka present;
In the separately published commentary on the book "Budo" you have;
1. The actual writing of Ueshiba in Japanese
2. Then you have the "explanation" in Japanese
3. Then you have the translation that can go either way
It is quite startling to see how many times none of the three line up.
From descriptions of six directions, intent, jumonji etc. All it proves is that many (I would guess most) of his students had no clue what he was talking about. Something which I squarely blame on Ueshiba. Takeda gave him and many others specific instruction. That's why Ueshiba had peers in his own era; Sagawa, Kodo, Hisa, etc.

I would interject here that I have seen the exact same translation problem between two Japanese Koryu teachers arguing over correct translation into English of one principle in their scroll; one saying this or that presents the concept more clearly, with the American listeners laughing and telling the Japanese "You just presented two completely different concepts to us from one sentence. Which is it?" Which started the argument all over again. When the actual waza was demonstrated...the physical lexicon was far more clear and it settled the debate.

It is also quite a stretch to say that you needed a religious connection to understand Ueshiba when many concepts (no not all) he talked about were all over the place in their own culture. I mean; heaven/earth/man, six directions, Kokyu power, aiki, were known. It certainly doesn't mean everyone understood them or could use them, just that they needed no religious connotation. Case in point: Heaven/ earth/man and six direction were known and taught in No dance. I have read manuscripts from 1783 discussing them and why they were needed.
As for those training with him getting and being able to translate? Guys like Chiba have publicly lamented that he was an idiot at the time (as have many of us) and wished he could go back. All he wanted at the time was for the old man to shut up so they could get back to the training. And that training, was the training that Ueshiba had just blasted them for not being his Aikido at all.
We should not be surprised at this. Taking young men in and six years later sending them out as 6th dan is a model for expanding an art, not for making highly polished and all knowing deshi we should be following.

Students fault or teacher
In a culture where may times the Budo lexicon was physical and not verbal, it can fall on the student to try to understand:
A case of three students:
Tohei said "All Ueshiba really taught us was how to relax."
Chiba said "No one knew what he was talking about, I couldn't wait for him to shut up so we could get back to training."
And yet Shirata....comes up with a series of power building exercises that include breath power, the use of kua and mingmen (as was the case in many JMA, not using those terms, but the mechanics), and some other interesting things more akin to DR than modern aikido!
Trying to make an argument for who had the best translating ability to what Ueshiba was saying is hilarious.

Dan

chillzATL 07-08-2011 12:15 PM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: (Post 287395)
Yes. I am.

So does everyone else who was there at the time. Why do you think he was such a phenomenon? Because it was the same ?
Really? Most only had him as a frame of reference. They never felt anyone else with aiki. So how would they know that HIS aiki was actually different than Takeda, Sagawa, etc? Later in life he used it differently (rounding it out, projections), but most of the qualitative comparisons (the few) sound very similar.

Quote:
Basically, the past to do with fighting you can understand and 'physical ki' you can sort of get but that's as far as most go. Just admit he went much further than that and stated it was nothing to do with the thinking of the past or how you would like to translate it so you could relate it to other things.

Every time he was asked if it's like this or that in judo, or if he learned it from Takeda, or if it's sen no sen, etc. he answered no.
Maybe translaters can't translate no.
You're being over simplistic for the sake of your arguement or maybe you don't know the situations your'e quoting clearly. When asked about what he learned from Takeda he said he opened his eyes to budo.

Where are the words from Ueshiba himself saying that what he was doing in his later years, beyond the form and techniques, was any different than what he was doing in his younger years when he was taking on all comers and developing a reputation of being this budo monster?

Most who felt him from both eras have quotes talking about how his techniques changed, but you don't hear much talking about how he himself felt any less powerful than he did at the height of that reputation or even different. There's very little difference noted in the qualitative aspects of Ueshiba's aiki, only in how he did the techniques. This coming from the guys who are themselves noted as being most like Ueshiba in skill level...

Mike Sigman 07-08-2011 12:16 PM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: (Post 287409)
Reiki and kokyu? I know about Reiki and Ki.
Sometimes Kokyu-ho Undo would be called Reiki-no Undo. You have to understand that "kokyu" is essentially a physical expression of "Ki", in the traditional perspective. I.e., if you're pushing on an unmovable Ueshiba or Tohei, it would be perfectly correct to say he is demonstrating his "ki" or his "kokyu". Hence a kokyu-nage still uses "ki", although by usage, no one would call it a "ki throw" (AFAIK), since that tends to indicate the throws where you get an opponent to commit his forces (generally, his "ki", also) and throw himself.
Quote:
The reasoning to do with 'at the time' and 'cultural tolerance' is where i depart as far as Ueshiba is concerned. For want of a better word the whole phenomena of Ueshiba at the time was that he was a kind of martial arts rebel, not a conformist. So travelling that path never leads to him but only to the past.
Mmmmmm.... I think you can be a strict adherent to tradition and still be innovative, aggressive, etc. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but you seem to be under the impression that IF Ueshiba used a large number of terms idiosyncratically and apart from the general usage (something unproven, at best), then it's OK for others to do the same? Or if others use terms to mean other things it might somehow be in accord with any purported non-traditional usage that Ueshiba *might* have used? I'm not sure I understand the gist of what you're looking for. I do know that Ueshiba's douka's, written references, etc., indicated a fairly rigorous agreement with the Chinese classics (which he also studied, as did most well-schooled Japanese).

2 cents.

Mike Sigman

graham christian 07-08-2011 12:38 PM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: (Post 287411)
Graham, your lack of understanding simply make matters worse and really don't make any case worth having. In one paragraph you state THEY understood him because they trained with him, in another ...they couldn't understand till they went outside for spiritual awareness. Your argument is nonsense.

Arguing translation with Chris is rather ridiculous, you don't have the skills. I suggest you try asking him questions.

Translation
You fail to understand the difficulties in translating. As Chris has pointed out in rooms with native Japanese Budo-ka present;
In the separately published commentary on the book "Budo" you have;
1. The actual writing of Ueshiba in Japanese
2. Then you have the "explanation" in Japanese
3. Then you have the translation that can go either way
It is quite startling to see how many times none of the three line up.
From descriptions of six directions, intent, jumonji etc. All it proves is that many (I would guess most) of his students had no clue what he was talking about. Something which I squarely blame on Ueshiba. Takeda gave him and many others specific instruction. Thats why Ueshiba had peers in his own era; Sagawa, Kodo, Hisa, etc.
I would interject here that I have seen the exact same translation problem between two Japanese Koryu teachers arguing over correct translation into English of one principle in their scroll; one saying this or that presents the concept more clearly, with the American listeners laughing and telling the Japanese "You just presented two completely different concepts to us from one sentence. Which is it?" Which started the argument all over again.
When the time came for the actual waza...the physical lexicon was far more clear and it settled the debate.

It is also quite a stretch to say that you needed a religious connection to understand Ueshiba when many concepts (no not all) he talked about were all over the place in their own culture. I mean; heaven/earth/man, six directions, Kokyu power, aiki, were known. It certainly doesn't mean everyone understood them or could use them, just that they needed no religious connotation. Case in point: Heaven/ earth/man and six direction were known and taught in No dance. I have read manuscripts from 1783 discussing them and why they were needed.
As for those training with him getting and being able to translate? Guys like Chiba have publicly lamented that he was an idiot at the time (as have many of us) and wished he could go back. All he wanted at the time was for the old man to shut up so they could get back to the training. And that training, was the training that Ueshiba had just blasted them for not being his Aikido at all.
We should not be surprised at this. Taking young men in and six years later sending them out as 6th dan is a model for expanding an art, not for making highly polished and all knowing deshi we should be following.

Students fault or teacher
In a culture where may times the Budo lexicon was physical and not verbal, it can fall on the student to try to understand:
Three students
Tohei said "All Ueshiba really taught us was how to relax."
Chiba "No one knew what he was talking about, I couldn't wait for him to shut up so we could get back to training."
And yet Shirata....comes up with a series of power building exercises that include breath power, the use of kua and mingmen (as was the case in many JMA, not using those terms, but the mechanics), and some other interesting things more akin to DR than modern aikido!
Trying to make an argument for who had the best translating ability to what Ueshiba was saying is hilarious.

Dan
Ah Dan. Back on speaking terms are we? That's nice.

Differenciation please. His son translated and of course he understood him better than many. Tohei understood as he was a spiritual person and also translated sometimes. The ones who said they didn't understand him, of which there are many are the ones I am referring to when saying that. The teacher who studied zen later and then understood was yet another point.

FOUR SEPARATE POINTS. Surely that's clear enough isn't it?

It may be hilarious to you Dan but I could demonstrate that you couldn't translate English if I asked you to do something using plain english.

You don't seem to be aware enough to understand my english. You think I am saying I know more about translating Japanese than Chris. Anyway, it's a nice surprise to hear your explosive expertise.

Regards.G.

JW 07-08-2011 12:48 PM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: (Post 287397)
It's not a matter of translating a word literally it's a matter of understanding conceptually.
Well I think that's something we all agree on. So I am not going to cling to any specific translation. In terms of actual practice-- "harmonize" and "combine" both are fine. They're just different ways of describing something. And to really describe it you are going to need more than a few words.

Other than a few books I've read in the past, I am not of the same background as Mike. Despite this lack of shared background I've never thought what he is saying is in any way in conflict with what we do in aikido, when you fully interpret the entirety of what is being said. Just my personal impression.

Keith Larman 07-08-2011 01:14 PM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
One thing I find rather hilarious about this discussion is that we've discussed rather extensively what the word "harmony" means just in English. It is hard to come up with a consensus on that word alone.

For instance...

Quote:
The combination of simultaneously sounded musical notes to produce chords and chord progressions having a pleasing effect
- four-part harmony in the barbershop style
- the note played on the fourth beat anticipates the harmony of the following bar

The study or composition of musical harmony

The quality of forming a pleasing and consistent whole
- delightful cities where old and new blend in harmony

An arrangement of the four Gospels, or of any parallel narratives, that presents a single continuous narrative text

Agreement or concord
- man and machine in perfect harmony
Okay, four or more definitions there. No translation issues yet. Just the word harmony. For me, classically trained in music, well, I will immediately focus in on asking what "pleasing" means. I find that requires some explication because singing in harmony and finding that pleasing assumes a musical system and context. It's like being raised on western classical music but then hearing music from some far away land that uses different notes and intervals. What is "harmonious" to my ears may not be pleasing to theirs and vice versa. So the whole "pleasing" aspect is firmly entrenches in some larger context.

My point here is that if you look further in the definitions you'll find words like "agreement" or "concord". "Man and machine in perfect harmony". That doesn't sound particularly like "pleasing" has anything to do with it. It's more about matching up, blending, fitting, or combining.

So to me, with a musical background, I don't necessarily associate pleasing as part of harmony. I find it pleasing sometimes depending on context, but it can still be in harmony and not be something I like. Harmony in a "key" sense might mean in the same key but different notes. Harmony in a rhythmic sense may mean simultaneous but not necessarily the same key, i.e., "they were playing the dissonant chord in harmony with each other."

So here you'll find people disagreeing as to whether harmony carries connotations of being "pleasing". It doesn't always. So which "harmony" are you talking about? Which harmony better "maps" to what ai means in Japanese? If the Japanese word doesn't necessarily carry the connotation of "pleasing" then a lot of the stuff that folk here in the west say about the meaning of "ai" is not-so-subtly off target. And that aspect is simply because we don't even agree on the meaning of the word harmony ourselves!

I would suggest paying attention to those who actually speak the language and also practice the art extensively. Things don't always "map" to each other well. Sometimes it's better to say "ai" kinda means something like harmony, combining, fitting (glove meet hand), etc. It may not carry all the connotations of the translated word. And understanding that requires some subtle and careful consideration.

And it most certainly means trying to avoid picking and choosing meanings that fit with what *you* want it to mean because it best fits what *you* would like it to be. Conformation bias among other things.

To go another direction, a teacher of mine outside martial arts, Japanese native, explained "Ai" in this context to me like this. We were having a lovely lunch at a local family run Japanese restaurant. She reached out and grabbed her bowl of miso soup. These weren't industrial, plastic bowls but lovely hand made bowls with lovely lids. The lids fit perfectly sealing up the bowl, keeping the soup hot. She said "This is ai -- see how they fit? See how they work together as a whole? See how this lid doesn't fit your bowl? It only fits this one. When it is on the right bowl that is ai. And there is nothing more than that -- it just 'is'."

FWIW.

Mike Sigman 07-08-2011 01:23 PM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Looks like the focus is on the word "Aiki". One comment I'd make is that I asked a native-born Chinese friend of mine (who's done martial arts his whole life) what he thought about the kanji for "Aikido". He said he was familiar with it and while the meaning is obvious (about the combining with an opponent's forces), it's wouldn't be the combination of kanji that a Chinese speaker would use. Point is that a lot of these arguments about what "aiki" is supposed to mean are probably overdone and it wouldn't really be an issue among competent martial-artists with internal strength skills.

2 cents.

Mike Sigman

graham christian 07-08-2011 03:34 PM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: (Post 287423)
Looks like the focus is on the word "Aiki". One comment I'd make is that I asked a native-born Chinese friend of mine (who's done martial arts his whole life) what he thought about the kanji for "Aikido". He said he was familiar with it and while the meaning is obvious (about the combining with an opponent's forces), it's wouldn't be the combination of kanji that a Chinese speaker would use. Point is that a lot of these arguments about what "aiki" is supposed to mean are probably overdone and it wouldn't really be an issue among competent martial-artists with internal strength skills.

2 cents.

Mike Sigman
Hi Mike. That's true, the focus was on the term as well as Ki and Kokyu and basically me interested in your view.

The problem with communication is not only translation. It's also to do with reality, different realities on the same thing. I like to hear others different realities.

When it comes to Ki or Kokyu it's interesting to hear others realities as well as harmony etc.

Many times it's not the same as mine. However I do know mine and apply it every day. Hopefully they do theirs.

The biggest reality is in real life. By hearing what others mean I can then relate it to people from the past I have shared training with and so see the difference.

I witnessed a hilarious event only two years ago to do with Ki verses chi. I was teaching Aikido after a Tai Chi class by some chinese Teacher.

As one of my students was also doing this Tai Chi I had turned up early to see how he was getting on. Because of this I think it caused one guy to tell another he knew Ki and another to argue with him that it's not the same and they proceeded to try and prove it to each other. For me it was very funny but I kept my laugh inside and tried to be 'invisible' and just wait for them all to get changed and leave.

It went from one scene to another. Now the teacher had got involved which led my student to ask him some questions and so he proceeded to show him. It was all very interesting from the side lines but I thought 'oh no, he seems to be trying to show me how superior chi is. I won't say what happened next but it does show how this superior and prove rubbish is pure stupidity. But people love it.

Regards.G.

Mike Sigman 07-08-2011 05:10 PM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: (Post 287425)
The problem with communication is not only translation. It's also to do with reality, different realities on the same thing. I like to hear others different realities.
Well, anecdotes aside (I can tell plenty of my own), I don't think there are a lot of equally valid "realities". If you go back 6 or so years when I started posting a fair amount on AikiWeb, you can check that my "realities" haven't changed a bit nor am I now preaching anything new or revelatory in relation to my initial posts: the reason is to avoid this idea that there are changing realities and that each version or viewpoint is equally valid, depending upon your point of view.

Most of these things are fixed in stone (and the logic and results can be demonstrated), even though to the uninitiated it might appear that different 'opinions' or 'realities' can be valid.

I'm always open to valid and demonstrable argument, but when it comes to opinion or assertion on a superficial level I'm afraid that I'm not much of a player. If someone is thrown with "universal love", fine, but as they say in Missouri, "Show Me". If we're reduced, as is typical on many martial arts forums to "my theory is as valid as yours and I can kick anyone's butt to prove it" (professional fighters excepted), then I have to say what they say in California: "Passadena".

FWIW

Mike Sigman

George S. Ledyard 07-08-2011 07:38 PM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
As the Taoists said, "He who knows, does not speak. And he who speaks, does not know." The problem, with the forums is the everyone speaks. So, how do you sort it out? The only way is to feel it.

What gets me is that there are son many folks willing to argue these points based on ZERO personal knowledge. Dan H was in England... to my knowledge none of the folks who perpetually argue with him about these things attended. I assume it was the same when Mike taught overseas since I hadn't heard different. I think folks should take the example of Ron and Mary seriously. We had a number of discussions on-line and they showed up when I taught somewhat near them. It was clear that they had to go our of their way to do so. So they now can talk knowledgeably about what I do. We don't have to agree nor does anyone have to change anything he or she is doing. But we can now have a discussion which goes beyond strongly held opinions based on no information.

Some of these discussions remind me of talks I had with a friend from college who was "born again". He did not believe in evolution. You'd ask why the fossil record showed different and he'd say "it's a mystery." You'd ask where'd the fossils come from, he'd say God put them there. You'd ask "why would he do that? He'd reply, "It's a mystery." You have people here who are genuine experts in a certain area. People who know little or nothing in that area argue with them that they understand. When told that from everything they say it is clear they do not know, they simply reply they do.
It's idiotic.

Chris Li is an expert on the Japanese language, and unlike most translators has extensive knowledge of Aikido as a practitioner and has also studied Aikido more from an academic standpoint. Yet a person having few of these qualifications is going to sit down and argue with him about a point that he is in a perfect position to have an expert and informed opinion about.

I have no problem with arguing with Mike and Dan about what Aikido is and is not or what it could or should be. I can hold my own with most on the history angle and am happy to debate about areas where I have a different interpretation.

I try not to get into discussions at all about things that I either know nothing about or have only a remedial understanding of. I think the folks who post here should take the trouble to get some in person, hands on exposure to one of these folks so you understand what they are talking about. Take the trouble to read a single book like Ellis Amdur's Hidden in Plain Sight. We wouldn't be having some of these circular, never going anywhere discussions if more folks bothered to be informed about what they are talking about.

stan baker 07-08-2011 07:59 PM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
If you looked at what George wrote read it again

stan

Mike Sigman 07-08-2011 07:59 PM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: (Post 287444)
As the Taoists said, "He who knows, does not speak. And he who speaks, does not know." The problem, with the forums is the everyone speaks. So, how do you sort it out? The only way is to feel it.
I dunno.... we went through a lot of this back in the 80's and 90's in the CMA's already. What happened generally was that the strong guys who could toss long-term "Tai Chi", etc., people around convinced them that what they were doing was the Real Stuff (tm). So a lot of people took off along that route instead of going to people with world-class expertise (e.g., Chen Xiaowang, Feng, and other people). What ultimately happened was that most of the enthusiasts wound up, after a few years, in dead ends. The real giveaway was then, and now, that the conversations stuck with the 'western masters' rather than where it belonged with the legitimate Asian experts. That would be my first suggestion (and it has been for years).... go see and feel the guys with world-recognized mastery and thus begin your comparison.

The comment about the Tao is more along the lines that it's very hard to describe by oral methods and needs to be felt, etc., to be understood. The problem tends to be now and was before (from my own observations) was that many people who claimed to be "seniors", "experts", and "teachers" were actually not very experienced in real martial arts and, in the case of the CMA in recent years, easily convinced by every White Crane, etc., master (usually just strong amateurs) that they were showing the Real Stuff (tm). Again, the real problem, IMO, was that they didn't bother to cross-check against the real big-dogs but instead stayed in the amateur ranks.

The solution.... don't stay in the amateur arena; go get a serious feel for some of the real experts in "internal martial arts", see what their bodies/strength feels like, etc., and then work your way back down into the art of your choice. Once you really know what "iron in cotton" etc., feels like, then you can make better choices of what is and isn't "internal strength". Make the jump up to the high so that you can define what the real thing is about and then sort out the best route to what you want to learn. IME most people aren't interested in any of this anyway, but the ones that are will be wasting their time to work their way UP the chain when they should go to the top and then work downward. I've given this type of advice for many years/decades and I think it still stands up.

2 cents.

Mike Sigman

On the other hand, a lot of people have no idea what they're seeing and feeling and that's why so many real Asian experts just shrug off so much.

George S. Ledyard 07-08-2011 08:21 PM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: (Post 287446)
I dunno.... we went through a lot of this back in the 80's and 90's in the CMA's already. What happened generally was that the strong guys who could toss long-term "Tai Chi", etc., people around convinced them that what they were doing was the Real Stuff (tm). So a lot of people took off along that route instead of going to people with world-class expertise (e.g., Chen Xiaowang, Feng, and other people). What ultimately happened was that most of the enthusiasts wound up, after a few years, in dead ends. The real giveaway was then, and now, that the conversations stuck with the 'western masters' rather than where it belonged with the legitimate Asian experts. That would be my first suggestion (and it has been for years).... go see and feel the guys with world-recognized mastery and thus begin your comparison.

The comment about the Tao is more along the lines that it's very hard to describe by oral methods and needs to be felt, etc., to be understood. The problem tends to be now and was before (from my own observations) was that many people who claimed to be "seniors", "experts", and "teachers" were actually not very experienced in real martial arts and, in the case of the CMA in recent years, easily convinced by every White Crane, etc., master (usually just strong amateurs) that they were showing the Real Stuff (tm). Again, the real problem, IMO, was that they didn't bother to cross-check against the real big-dogs but instead stayed in the amateur ranks.

The solution.... don't stay in the amateur arena; go get a serious feel for some of the real experts in "internal martial arts", see what their bodies/strength feels like, etc., and then work your way back down into the art of your choice. Once you really know what "iron in cotton" etc., feels like, then you can make better choices of what is and isn't "internal strength". Make the jump up to the high so that you can define what the real thing is about and then sort out the best route to what you want to learn. IME most people aren't interested in any of this anyway, but the ones that are will be wasting their time to work their way UP the chain when they should go to the top and then work downward. I've given this type of advice for many years/decades and I think it still stands up.

2 cents.

Mike Sigman

On the other hand, a lot of people have no idea what they're seeing and feeling and that's why so many real Asian experts just shrug off so much.
Hi Mike,
I totally understand what you are saying... I even agree. But I think it is important to maintain perspective. Most of the folks doing Aikido, even teaching Aikido, have no actual expectation of ever reaching some illustrious "top level". They'd be happy if someone could just help them take their stuff up a couple levels.

It is clear to me that virtually any exposure to this stuff, can change ones Aikido quite a lot. I have some kyu ranked folks whose work has gotten light years better with just a bit or work on IS skills. My own Aikido has gone to an entirely different level and continues to change and I am by no means anything more than a beginner at this work.

Sometimes these discussions between "experts" end up in debates about issues that are simply far above most of everyone's "pay grade". While I understand that you feel that there are "false paths" that won't, in the end' deliver the goods, that is really coming from your position as a world class practitioner of these skills. Most folks don't care because they are never going to practice enough to get to that level anyway.

Rather than be "exclusive" about finding folks to get exposure to these skills, I think we should be "inclusive". Some exposure is better than no exposure. Exposure to someone who is adequate is better than exposure to no one.

Too often these discussions are like a couple of guys from the NFL discussing the fine points of the professional game to an audience made up of high school players. It just doesn't need to be that refined yet.

DH 07-08-2011 09:05 PM
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
 
Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: (Post 287444)
We wouldn't be having some of these circular, never going anywhere discussions if more folks bothered to be informed about what they are talking about.
For me, ten thousand words of debate on the internet always end....in person. One person shows their way of doing something...another shows theirs....no more debate. And then usually friendships are forged as well.
Arguing terminology goes no where. Contrary to some of the rhetoric written here and elsewhere, grandmaster level ICMA teachers not only argue over definitions, they argue over the use of the body method and they argue over the meaning of the so called classics as well. It's no different than JMA Shihan arguing over power and aiki. So one group trying to own definitions as a narrow absolute over another is frankly rather amateurish and needy to me. It's what people are capable of doing and how they are doing it and whether they are capable of teaching it that matters.

The internet has incredible potential..unfortunately not every thing is beneficial.
Dan


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