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-   -   Randori...we don't do enough of it (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21422)

phitruong 06-17-2012 09:14 PM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Quote:

Chris Parkerson wrote: (Post 311087)
Has anyone trained Randori with "exotic" weapons?

Chris

you meant with vibrators and stuffs like that? damn! my eyes had gone bad on me, i thought "exotic" weapons was "erotic" weapons. personally, i think we have enough difficulty with bare hands. :D

Chris Parkerson 06-17-2012 09:44 PM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Quote:

Anthony Loeppert wrote: (Post 311088)
Not me.

While perhaps technically true, what is the implication on applications of today? How often is a katana encountered? Chain weapons? Probably not many death by morningstar... Just a few less than died by throwing knife I'd guess...

though I'm not well versed in the nuance between someone throwing objects vs. slicing and blunt trauma instruments.

Many folks have talked about self defense.....
Application..

Chains are everywhere and act like whips. They can also wrap around you and slap you
unconscious if you try to block them.
A thrown knife must be avoided with body pivoting or footwork. Yet the thrower is still closing
upon you and is not yet committed to an angle of attack. Thus, there are two maii to be aware of.
I trained most of my art for the last 20 years to apply to bodyguarding. Has anyone considered
this? If you are protecting yourself, the dynamic sphere is fine and dandy. But if you are protecting
your spouse and kids, that same sphere is likely going to drive the attacker into a loved one.
Thus, I shortened my entries and kuzushi in all of the traditional techniques so I could make them
applicable to 3rd party protection. I train Multiple Randori with 3rd party protection in mind.


I am simply suggesting that we not only do more Randori; for it is a beautiful training platform, but to mix it up and challenge ourselves with modern realities.

Namaste,

Chris

Chris Parkerson 06-17-2012 09:57 PM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 311092)
you meant with vibrators and stuffs like that? damn! my eyes had gone bad on me, i thought "exotic" weapons was "erotic" weapons. personally, i think we have enough difficulty with bare hands. :D

Exactly Phi.
Below is another form of Randori for police and military. Building entry team goes through a house while bad guys grab at their sex toys. Aiki using the tip of your gun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UIYF...e_gdata_player

Hooyah

Chris

GMaroda 06-18-2012 12:50 AM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Quote:

Cherie Cornmesser wrote: (Post 311078)
Maybe you don't do enough of it. Where I train we do randori drills pretty frequently.

Actually, I think we don't do it all that frequently. Just when someone is ramping up for a test. Then there's lots.

I wouldn't mind some more in the times we're normally focusing on other things, just to keep the skill levels up.

But then, I can never get enough randori. :cool:

Chuck Clark 06-18-2012 01:42 AM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Peter has mentioned differences in methods of randori geiko. Here's a brief description of how we randori in Jiyushinkai training.

Jiyushin randori consists of one person attacking (setting up a real conflict with strong intent), and if the answering technique is not successful, then countering techniques (brought about through intuitive, creative decision making processes) are made by each person until a technique happens that can not be countered. This practice is initially done in slow motion with both partners keeping the original rhythm and pace. Even at slow speed, it's assumed that we're going as fast as possible so that "speeding up" to get out of trouble is not a viable way of solving the problem at hand. It is essential in this practice that excessive force and speed not be the deciding factors in the success of the techniques. As the budoka become more skilled, the speed level can go as fast as possible.

Randori must lead us past the seiteigata learning tools in kihon no kata into instantaneous intuitive, creative decision making of an infinite variety of techniques. Instead of reactive decision making, we learn proactive or creative decision making skills. Each person is trying 100% to attack and not get caught themselves while not really caring who catches the successful technique because both participants are learning and both are "winners" at all times. The idea is to develop a symbiotic competitive spirit of training that brings us to the true essence of the concept of takemusu aiki (the never ending flow of creative aikido that is appropriate for that instant).

Students usually begin to randori at about sankyu level and it becomes around fifty percent of our practice.

PeterR 06-18-2012 04:27 AM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 311091)
i don't think so. you can do 10,000 times of wrong things. what you will be good at is doing wrong things very well. there are lots of thing to consider in randori and you need to structure your training for it. first, consider the attackers. most attackers don't know how to attack in group. so you need to teach folks, ukes, how to synchronize their attacks so they can come at different angles and different levels, at the same time or close to it, so they don't let up the pressure on the nage. they need to learn strategies on how to corner nage. on the nage side, you need to understand spacing and timing in a group dynamics, which is quite a bit different than one on one. there are things you should do and shouldn't do. there are tactics and strategies to employ. folks tend to not know what they don't know until they got dog piled.

Well sure but on the other hand Randori is basically chaos training. The more "how to" there is the further you are away from the real purpose.

You are right of course - you need to start somewhere (rules, definitions and tactics) but then very quickly you need to start stripping those things away.

My point was not so much that you don't need to know the necessaries but to get better you need to get past that and just do lots of randori.

phitruong 06-18-2012 08:07 AM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote: (Post 311021)
Randori is the most fun. Relax and enjoy...the more you can stay out of your head the better it feels and the better you will do.

you need to keep your head. you should be, at any time in the randori, if someone says stop, then you should be able to describe your next two moves at that point in time, and why you would make those moves.

phitruong 06-18-2012 08:17 AM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Quote:

Adam Huss wrote: (Post 311025)
I find this a commonality as well. Its a difficult exercise to squeeze into a short class period so I think it gets glossed over a lot. It can be tricky to find enough qualified uke who don't mind revving it up some. Also, only one person can be nage at a time...hence the extra time consumption.

depends on how you structure your practice. most folks practice aikido as though gearing toward only one person, nage, improving, instead of both nage and uke(s). uke(s) job is learning to attack well and to take ukemi well. nage learns to deal with the attacks. same thing in randori, ukes portion of learning is how to work in group, i.e. teamwork. how to take ukemi in a group and clear out the space so your other partners can attack nage and not be in the way of each other. ukes learning too, not just nage. when you structure your aikido practice like that, then you don't waste time on folks. and for those who stand on the sideline, not in the current randori, they learn as well by spotting mistakes and opportunities.

Chris Parkerson 06-18-2012 08:45 AM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Peter,

You said, "You are right of course - you need to start somewhere (rules, definitions and tactics) but then very quickly you need to start stripping those things away."

That is so true. Traditional Randori is like an en vitro experiment. We must get past the fundamentals and then call into question tactics.

I do not know of mass attacks in the real world that do not include some form of blunt or edged weapon. And these days, someone likely has a hidden pistol in them if they are gang related.

Some ideas on tactics.
1. Go for the attacker who is wielding the most devastating weapon first. Take it from him and tactics change immediately.
2. When disarming him, the beauty of the throw is not as important as the disarm. Beware that centripetal forces are at play in big falls.

I offer these two video clips as a case in which traditional throws against an opponent wielding a pistol
May require some augmentation in technique.

Look at throw #3 and #4. in #3, I intentionally loosen my connection to the Kite gaeshi technique (something I would not normally do), in order to create a whip that disarms the pistol.

In technique #4 I am more concerned about making the perfect hiki otoshi that I forget to whip the gun away and am pulled if balance myself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96JQh...e_gdata_player

3. Another issue is to know when to revert your knowledge of a weapon's weakness. So many people get stuck performing jujitsu or Aiki against a firearm without changing traditional methods to take advantage of the firearm's weaknesses. Semi-autos jam easily. Creat a type 3 malfunction and it becomes a club at best. You as Tori should know this - the opponent may not. This buy you many options for the next move as type 3 malfunctions take time to clear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gklVq...e_gdata_player
4. Long arms work differently than handguns.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmbbY...e_gdata_player

Be well,

Chris

Mary Eastland 06-18-2012 08:45 AM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 311106)
you need to keep your head. you should be, at any time in the randori, if someone says stop, then you should be able to describe your next two moves at that point in time, and why you would make those moves.

Hi Phi:

I respectfully disagree with you...I never know what technique I am going to do until I am doing it. Randori has nothing to do with thinking. Each moment is met from the center with total concentration on the conditions at hand. The techniques or non techniques arise out of the the attack and the position of the other ukes. Thinking about the future is a distraction from the now.

Some ukes must be sidestepped and avoided as others are engaged and used as shields from other ukes. If a uke is just holding on, witrhout being dangerous they may be disregarded and dealt with after the more threatening ukes are dealt with. It all becomes clear with repeated practice and corrections as we go.

phitruong 06-18-2012 09:03 AM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote: (Post 311109)
Hi Phi:

I respectfully disagree with you...I never know what technique I am going to do until I am doing it. Randori has nothing to do with thinking. Each moment is met from the center with total concentration on the conditions at hand. The techniques or non techniques arise out of the the attack and the position of the other ukes. Thinking about the future is a distraction from the now.
.

Mary, i did not mention techniques. i said "moves", as in, veering left to distance my right side uke, running toward the open west side corner, speed up and slow down to mess with the timing, and so on. one against many already put you at a disadvantage. if you cannot plan ahead (i didn't say your body goes ahead, i said plan ahead), then you put yourself at an even greater disadvantage. personally, i would like my ukes work for it to get to me. it's call sen sen no sen, not go no sen nor even sen no sen.

PeterR 06-18-2012 09:09 AM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Unfortunately I am sitting in a country which rightly or wrongly (I have yet to make up my mind) bans YouTube.

I don't think randori in any of its forms has to reflect "real life" in that it is a training tool rather than the summit of Aikido.. Its main purpose is to free us from more stuctured training and expose us to a more chaotic environment. I have a similar view of several different aspects of Aikido - I try to avoid the "Aikido is" trap.

Now the inclusion of weapons, going to ground, and any and all sorts of "fun variations" have other purposes in their own right. Did I mention they could be fun.

Quote:

Chris Parkerson wrote: (Post 311108)
Peter,

You said, "You are right of course - you need to start somewhere (rules, definitions and tactics) but then very quickly you need to start stripping those things away."

That is so true. Traditional Randori is like an en vitro experiment. We must get past the fundamentals and then call into question tactics.

I do not know of mass attacks in the real world that do not include some form of blunt or edged weapon. And these days, someone likely has a hidden pistol in them if they are gang related.

Some ideas on tactics.
1. Go for the attacker who is wielding the most devastating weapon first. Take it from him and tactics change immediately.
2. When disarming him, the beauty of the throw is not as important as the disarm. Beware that centripetal forces are at play in big falls.

I offer these two video clips as a case in which traditional throws against an opponent wielding a pistol
May require some augmentation in technique.

Look at throw #3 and #4. in #3, I intentionally loosen my connection to the Kite gaeshi technique (something I would not normally do), in order to create a whip that disarms the pistol.

In technique #4 I am more concerned about making the perfect hiki otoshi that I forget to whip the gun away and am pulled if balance myself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96JQh...e_gdata_player

3. Another issue is to know when to revert your knowledge of a weapon's weakness. So many people get stuck performing jujitsu or Aiki against a firearm without changing traditional methods to take advantage of the firearm's weaknesses. Semi-autos jam easily. Creat a type 3 malfunction and it becomes a club at best. You as Tori should know this - the opponent may not. This buy you many options for the next move as type 3 malfunctions take time to clear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gklVq...e_gdata_player
4. Long arms work differently than handguns.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmbbY...e_gdata_player

Be well,

Chris


Gorgeous George 06-18-2012 11:56 AM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Quote:

Peter Rehse wrote: (Post 311111)
Unfortunately I am sitting in a country which rightly or wrongly (I have yet to make up my mind) bans YouTube.

Really...?
Where are you?

Gorgeous George 06-18-2012 11:58 AM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 311092)
you meant with vibrators and stuffs like that? damn! my eyes had gone bad on me, i thought "exotic" weapons was "erotic" weapons. personally, i think we have enough difficulty with bare hands. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV1j2VYi7ho

;)

Gerardo Torres 06-18-2012 12:18 PM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Like the OP, I feel we don't practice aikido randori enough to improve it significantly. I suck at it :(

FWIW, the best randori training and performance I have seen, is from Haruo Matsuoka Sensei and his students. His dojo put out some videos showing footage of their randori practice. They are very, very demanding when training randori. The uke attack and chase the nage close to 100% speed and commitment -- they really want to pile up on nage. They are humble and mature enough to show failures on video, analyze it, and try to fix it. They keep training this way, and I believe they don't get Dan grades until they can pull it off; but when they do get it right, it's fantastic. I have not seen anybody else do this kind of work, at least at this level and with such quality of results.

Rob Watson 06-18-2012 01:09 PM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Quote:

Graham Jenkins wrote: (Post 311114)

You always tell the bad asses by the size of the mullet ...

Chris Parkerson 06-18-2012 01:29 PM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Quote:

Robert M Watson Jr wrote: (Post 311119)
You always tell the bad asses by the size of the mullet ...

Now that quote and that video are definitely keepers.

Chow,

Chris

Mary Eastland 06-18-2012 02:35 PM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 311110)
Mary, i did not mention techniques. i said "moves", as in, veering left to distance my right side uke, running toward the open west side corner, speed up and slow down to mess with the timing, and so on. one against many already put you at a disadvantage. if you cannot plan ahead (i didn't say your body goes ahead, i said plan ahead), then you put yourself at an even greater disadvantage. personally, i would like my ukes work for it to get to me. it's call sen sen no sen, not go no sen nor even sen no sen.

The second you start to plan you have left the present.

phitruong 06-18-2012 02:58 PM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote: (Post 311131)
The second you start to plan you have left the present.

why would this be a bad thing? why couldn't i plan ahead and be in the present at the same time? would having multiple personalities help? :)

Chris Parkerson 06-18-2012 03:50 PM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 311133)
why would this be a bad thing? why couldn't i plan ahead and be in the present at the same time? would having multiple personalities help? :)

Genpo Roshi's "Big Mind".
We are all blessed/afflicted by it.
Just don't let it fragment to where one member ceases to talk to the other members of the Board of Directors. That is when you go schitzo.

Gassho

Chris

graham christian 06-18-2012 04:25 PM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Quote:

Chris Parkerson wrote: (Post 311093)
Many folks have talked about self defense.....
Application..

Chains are everywhere and act like whips. They can also wrap around you and slap you
unconscious if you try to block them.
A thrown knife must be avoided with body pivoting or footwork. Yet the thrower is still closing
upon you and is not yet committed to an angle of attack. Thus, there are two maii to be aware of.
I trained most of my art for the last 20 years to apply to bodyguarding. Has anyone considered
this? If you are protecting yourself, the dynamic sphere is fine and dandy. But if you are protecting
your spouse and kids, that same sphere is likely going to drive the attacker into a loved one.
Thus, I shortened my entries and kuzushi in all of the traditional techniques so I could make them
applicable to 3rd party protection. I train Multiple Randori with 3rd party protection in mind.

I am simply suggesting that we not only do more Randori; for it is a beautiful training platform, but to mix it up and challenge ourselves with modern realities.

Namaste,

Chris

Here's an interesting additive for you Chris. When someone is getting stuck with one person, especially when they are 'sure' they are being thwarted, I pick up a bokken saying if they are still there they get hit. Suddenly they can do it. This also happens with more attackers. The thing is it makes the handling of those others more insignificant and they find themselves handling them in order to avoid the 'greater' danger.

Ma-ai, or rather zanshin tends to suddenly become useful.

Peace.G.

Chris Parkerson 06-18-2012 04:34 PM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 311147)
Here's an interesting additive for you Chris. When someone is getting stuck with one person, especially when they are 'sure' they are being thwarted, I pick up a bokken saying if they are still there they get hit. Suddenly they can do it. This also happens with more attackers. The thing is it makes the handling of those others more insignificant and they find themselves handling them in order to avoid the 'greater' danger.

Ma-ai, or rather zanshin tends to suddenly become useful.

Peace.G.

Most interesting. : )
I use a series of tools to teach critical distance against blunt and edged weapons.
Once graduated from thebasic tools, I move to the replica sword to see if the glitter causes them
to focus on the weapon rather than the gestalt and ranges. Then, to a real Katana or knife.
Reactive ranging naturally Increases until they begin trusting their instincts again.
Finally, a riding crop. It whips so fast, range must be completely instinctive. This prepares a person to fight on a dark wet night and not overly rely on vision. The crop's whipping sound gives you r ge for maii.

Party on

Chris

graham christian 06-18-2012 04:46 PM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Quote:

Chris Parkerson wrote: (Post 311148)
Most interesting. : )
I use a series of tools to teach critical distance against blunt and edged weapons.
Once graduated from thebasic tools, I move to the replica sword to see if the glitter causes them
to focus on the weapon rather than the gestalt and ranges. Then, to a real Katana or knife.
Reactive ranging naturally Increases until they begin trusting their instincts again.
Finally, a riding crop. It whips so fast, range must be completely instinctive. This prepares a person to fight on a dark wet night and not overly rely on vision. The crop's whipping sound gives you r ge for maii.

Party on

Chris

Very good. When you say instinctive I take it you mean spiritual. Spiritual ma-ai is something I never hear discussed.

Peace.G.

Chris Parkerson 06-18-2012 05:04 PM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 311150)
Very good. When you say instinctive I take it you mean spiritual. Spiritual ma-ai is something I never hear discussed.

Peace.G.

I do not attempt to separate spiritual from physical. I am unsure what you mean in your term spiritual maii. For me, I say, there are no winners in a fight, only survivors.
How do you survive?

1. Don't get hit. How do you not get hit? Move both feet. Follow the geometry of evasion. All attacks work on an arch and/or radius. PI is present. Trust it. It is a sacred geometry.

2. Don't get mesmerized by the moving glitter. It absorbs your attention and you get clocked from somewhere else. Plus, if you process through your eyes/brain, you are too slow. Feel movement like fish feel other fish in water. Move with the ebb and flow by way of your hara and you will not be too slow.

3. Do not stand double weighted. It is a stagnant kiss of death. It will cause you to use your eyes and brain, then you will have to shift to one foot. That is wasted time. The hara initiates movement best when you are primarily weighted on one foot.

Just a start...

Chris

graham christian 06-18-2012 05:37 PM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Quote:

Chris Parkerson wrote: (Post 311153)
I do not attempt to separate spiritual from physical. I am unsure what you mean in your term spiritual maii. For me, I say, there are no winners in a fight, only survivors.
How do you survive?

1. Don't get hit. How do you not get hit? Move both feet. Follow the geometry of evasion. All attacks work on an arch and/or radius. PI is present. Trust it. It is a sacred geometry.

2. Don't get mesmerized by the moving glitter. It absorbs your attention and you get clocked from somewhere else. Plus, if you process through your eyes/brain, you are too slow. Feel movement like fish feel other fish in water. Move with the ebb and flow by way of your hara and you will not be too slow.

3. Do not stand double weighted. It is a stagnant kiss of death. It will cause you to use your eyes and brain, then you will have to shift to one foot. That is wasted time. The hara initiates movement best when you are primarily weighted on one foot.

Just a start...

Chris

O.K. I Get the points 1,2 and 3 and could ask a few things about them. Firstly in the prior post I asked whether by intuition you meant spiritual.

Point 1 is different to me. On point 2, using hara rather than eyes, we are back to spiritual are we not?

Point 3 I disagree with or don't see how.

The main thing is though my reply to what I mean by spiritual ma-ai.

We used to demonstrate a one inch punch or even one cm punch from such, different to the standard or more common way of doing it. The point is spiritual rules are higher harmonics of the physical yet you cannot understand them thinking physically. ie: If I told you to spiritually let go of something it doesn't then fall down.

Now spiritual ma-ai I'll give you an example I feel you personally will get or at least find interesting. Think of sympathy. You may sympathise with someone and walk away carrying their problems. There I would say you didn't keep ma-ai.

On the other hand, and much more effective and helpful is empathy. Empathise with another and you are being with them spiritually and yet keeping ma-ai. Good counselors are good at this. So spiritually you can be with the other and even be with them completely withou losing yourself. You still are you, not overwhelmed or overcome. Thus you can be the other person and yet remain yourself. This is still ma-ai.

So in my Aikido for instance when you enter then obviously physically you are breaking ma-ai but if you maintain being with spiritually you are in fact maintaining ma-ai. The nearest I could say to this would be the oft said maintaining connection.

Hope that explains sufficiently.

Peace.G.


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