Ueshiba Morihei's power
Videos just don't tell the story. I became so disappointed with aikido after a few years of training. My disappointment was that I'd heard of this founder, Ueshiba, who was so powerful and dynamically strong, yet I didn't perceive anything approaching that level of power even among my teachers. Even in videos of Ueshiba, it seems easy to criticize, because his aikido, like everyone else's, seems to follow a pattern of collusion. I've asked if the whole thing was a giant con.
The greatest evidence to me of his power and skill has always been the respect of powerful budoka who were his peers. I just found another reference here. Quote:
Once again, we return to the fact that what Ueshiba M. was doing was different. And notice this. "when he caught ahold of your hand" - not, "when you grabbed his wrist." Best Ellis Amdur |
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This last sentence, could you elaborate a bit more on this? A couple of things come to mine like the term sen no sen referring to the sentence "when he caught ahold of your hand". |
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Eric - the only elaborations I have are:
1. This is congruent with the memories of one of the directors of the Nakano Spy School, who, upon seeing a post-war aikido demo, said to Kuroiwa Yoshio, "that's not what I remember Ueshiba sensei doing. He's just grab people and say, "you kill them like this. or like this. He's just smash them down." (not an exact quote, but close enough). 2 His method at that time was to take control of the person. (Not to say that, according to all my readings of various exponents of aiki that one cannot take control when they grab you - simply put, that his route at that time was more direct). Ellis Amdur |
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I don't know (I mean that honestly) if it was a more "jujutsu" approach. I think, from what I've been hearing, reading, experiencing . . .that "jujutsu rough, aiki soft or nice or "go-no-sen" is an artificial and false construct. Remember, Takeda called what he did jujutsu until the late teens or early 20's of the 20th century.
I think from what the authorities, here and elsewhere, have written that aiki is a different way of organizing the body/nervous system to express power. One could be exerting "aiki," therefore, while punching someone in the face hard enough to smash all the bones, and expressing jujutsu was a smooth, elegant redirection of force so that their body floats over you as you redirect their attempt to surmount you in grappling, and be doing neither jujutsu or aiki while stepping out of the way of the incoming force and "redirecting" it with a strategic movement of the hand, resulting in harmony for all involved. Given that Ueshiba was, at one time, primed to be Takeda Sokaku's successor (per Stanley Pranin, who stated he had evidence of such), if Tokimune called Ueshiba Takeda's best loved student, if he had received what was, at the time, the highest level certification in Daito-ryu, (etc., etc, etc.), it is reasonable to assume that he learned "aiki" from Takeda well before WWII, much less post war. That "aiki" might not have been very pleasant to experience at times, but . . . . |
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Ellis,
Was it coming across that reference that spurred your post or did you watch some of the videos of Ueshiba today? Despite the collusion, there are a few of him out there that show hints of his real power. |
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FWIW - the reference. I believe I've done justice to what is on video in HIPS. But none give an inkling to what is described in the reference, just, at best, that he had power in solo exercises, and could perform well in aikido context. That's why such references as the above are of interest to me.
Ellis Amdur |
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The more I train, the more I become convinced that the sort of power you see in old film of Tohei Sensei is where Ueshiba Sensei was in the 1930s, anecdotes speak of O Sensei becoming very soft (I'm sure this has been extensively covered elsewhere on aikiweb). Having trained with Koretoshi Maruyama Sensei and experienced the direction he is taking his aikido I think I'm starting to appreciate - if only on an intellectual level - the journey from that internal power to that soft ghostlike technique where uke simply cannot feel what is being done to them. FWIW |
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Also from Iwata sensei:
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I believe that even though it is hard, but if a concrete method was known...more people would do it. I think we may very well see this happen. I think some people already are doing this..and people are realizing it.. M 2 C. All the best, Josh |
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There was definitely not enough counter-evidence coming in within echo chamber to indicate otherwise, and it became self-reinforcing because I believed that if I tried to deviate from it I would be ruining my own chances. I did not begin to believe otherwise until I left the environment, and saw first-hand that to all appearances two people can be moving the same way and yet getting very different functional results, that shape was only a vehicle for doing real training, and not the real training itself. |
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With the insane fables of transendental feats aside:
I personally think that the most spectacular thing about O'Sensei is how unspectacular he was. He was a husband, a son, a father, a teacher, a martial artist, a farmer...a person. The unspectacular is capable of magnificence when they are honest about the folly of their own legend in my opinion. It's motivation enough for any unspectacular creation I guess. |
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How much do you know about the man. Honestly.
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Why? How much of what I said did you understand? :p |
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as far as power and Ueshiba Morihei, seemed he got plenty, but of the million strong aikidoka past and present, not one exceed him in ability, at least i have not heard of one. it's kinda sad don't you think? just think, if every generation of aikidoka where the students are less in skill than the teachers, what will be a few generations from now? it's all math and all down hill. gen1 = Ueshiba Morihei gen2 = 0.8 X gen1 (i am very generous of 80%) gen3 = 0.8 X gen2 which generation are you? |
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I never met O'Sensei first hand, so I can't comment on his ability outside of what I've been told 2nd hand of him. My direct teacher is a student of one of O'sense's uchi deshi.... 4th gen maybe? :/ lol you've thought a lot about the science of this |
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:) :eek: :freaky: (Sorry, couldn't figure out which emoticom fit. Ellis AMdur |
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It was the Sixties man :cool: ! O'Sensei must have been hanging out with Timothy Leary when he said those things :D ! There was very little ordinary about O'Sensei. He was an extraordinary man who strove to reach extraordinary places in his life. To that, we should all be thankful. marc abrams |
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That's what I mean by "understanding the folly of your on legend". I've met a lot of people in martial arts that have heard and bought the story of their own legend. And honestly, I some times feel that is one of the reasons they can't get better. They are already perfectly smitten with themselves and their martial progress. Dissatisfaction breeds achievement. You have to hate where you are to want to go some where else. Some times you can be too in love with your own legend to see where you are lacking and need improvement. |
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I don't think there is anything at all in the argument that aikidoka will decline in ability as time progresses: ability is a result of natural talent, and hard work, and I am certain that there are people who have far surpassed their teachers in understanding of aikido. |
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Maggie - Sorry, but for a man who may have said "let your ego die" (I don't recall reading that anywhere, but among the volcano of words that he uttered, why not?), he used the word "I" in writing and pronouncements about himself as much as anyone I've ever read. He was a grandiose egotist - and that's what made him great, not self-effacement.
And Graham, I'd disagree - if it was just natural talent and hard work, there would be many people who were Ueshiba's equal: 1. The Japanese army he was in was a modern army, complete with rifles, machine guns and cannons. 2. Many of his aikido students took challenges. I'm aware of some of the uchideshi inviting challengers upstairs to the fourth floor dojo at the Aikikai back in the seventies. 3. The uchideshi at Honbu dojo had the time to practice all day if they wished. It's not just a matter of practice (I don't want to dredge all the other threads into this one, but the whole issue that has, at times, consumed Aikiweb and has certainly been the subject of the last few years of my research is that it's not just practice hours, it's what you are practicing. And my assertion all along has been that Ueshiba didn't practice (or teach) what most of his followers did. It's not just "natural talent and hard work." Some of the shihan I met were both. Some of those shihan got as good as is humanly possible within the training paradigm they had. Ueshiba (and yes, the top Daito-ryu people) were using a different training paradigm. Best Ellis Amdur |
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I must agree with "Gorgeous George."
He was a fervent Omoto Kyo practioner who devoted his whole life to the spirit. We cannot pretend that a large portion of his power did not come from the highly spiritual life he led that was rooted in Shinto, esoteric Buddhist practices, martial arts, and asceticism. He did what many of us cannot do: He faced the spiritual and Belived, and I think that is what made of him the great man that we look up to. I don't think that we must imitate every aspect of his life; we should instead seek to isolate the core values which he lived by and emulate those through our own unique methods. Aikido must be done with total belief in the power of Ki. Nature must be revered and taken care of (as in Shinto.) The mind must be cultivated and the mindbodyspirit must face aloneness, simplicity, fasting, and meditation. You cannot expect to reach enlightenment by just going to a dojo on the weekends. It must be made the priority. But like Morihei Ueshiba, you can fast, pray, and wander your whole life and not reach enlightenment if you do not seek it with a purpose beyond self. Morihei created Aikido to spread Love to a world that was rapidly degenerating into the jaws of materialism, ignorance, and hatred. So too we cannot seek Morihei's power without the intention of using it to continue his struggle. If an Aikdoka truly surrendered to his or her quest, then, they would become like Morihei. - Johann |
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Johann - All of that is very nice. And true, as far as Ueshiba devoting his whole life to his spiritual quest. But I started this thread with a citation from another martial artist impressed with two things. His ability to avoid attack, and his ability to break arms.
(I am holding back from going in any number of directions regarding Ueshiba's "enlightenment," his history, and what he actually mean by "love." See Peter Goldsbury's" magnificent articles on this website for the facts rather than the fantasies), The only reason I am interested in Ueshiba is in regards to wanting to be able to break arms as well as he reportedly could, and there is no evidence that his genuine fascination with Shinto, esoteric Buddhism or Omooto was the main factor endowing him with such arm-breaking abilities. If I am looking for guidance on spiritual matters, I go to far finer men or women, such as Abraham Joshua Heschel, the close friend of Martin Luther King, or Hazrat Inayat Khan Best Ellis Amdur |
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