aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto
Ok, here are my real thoughts about the herd thing. It often comes sideways so I will just say it here and be done with it.
Ron and I teach Aikido. (I will speak for myself here)...The philosophy is very real to me, along with the waza and Ki development. Ron and I went to a seminar that George taught at Marc's to see what this aiki stuff was all about as George was presenting it. It was ok. We had fun. We like our way better. We invited both Marc and George to come and visit us. We were told they are both too busy. Fair enough. Stan B. came to our dojo to a seminar not long ago. He could see we are strong and our students are strong. Dora and Stan had an encounter and Dora was fine. Stan seemed fine. Our ideas about Ki development are changing and growing. Reading here and other places stretches us and makes us think and do different things. All good. We have invited Dan here several times. He lets the invites wither. I feel it is because it is an invite to explore together and not have him be the expert. Yet, I could be wrong. I am not interested in going to his place and this is the real reason, so listen carefully. I am not interested in the culture that I see around the posts on AikiWeb from most of the people that train in IP that post on here. In my dojo I know how what to expect. I see a lot of old guy network in the posts around IP. I am not interested in putting myself in a place where I am uncomfortable. When Bill Gleason's name comes I feel defensive because of some students that told us that they were not to train with us because we were not the real thing (Aikikai Aikido). Now Bill seems to be going outside Aikido to find Ki. You can do aiki in Aikido.You don't have to buy in to the Western philosophy of besting another. Before you get defensive or sarcastic ...try reading this again. I am not saying anyone is doing anything wrong. I am just talking about what I see and feel. The philosophy of self-defense without hurting another, without humiliating someone...to truly take care of oneself at the expense of no one is really at core to me. It is what makes Aikido a practice of deep determination and commitment. One can find strong inner strength through this practice. If you are interested come see us. We would love to train with you. |
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto
very nice post
regards chris |
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto
To Mary Eastland,
Hello, I have kept out of all the public discussions, but I would like to respond to your post. Quote:
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I understand your defensiveness in relation to the Aikikai, for I have first hand experience of this organization. However, like you I am relatively free in what I am able to do, but there is also an issue of commitment here. Nevertheless, I remember two memorable training sessions in Himeji, with participation from Aikikai (myself), Yoshinkan (Michael Stuempel) and Shodokan (Peter Rehse with Japanese colleagues from Shodokan Hombu). In Japan there are still dojos scattered around the country where what I would call old-style aikido is still practised. They never advertise and have to be searched for. Quote:
Best wishes, P A Goldsbury |
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto
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Your propensity for seemingly never getting what I say accurate is beyond the pale of reason. I have NEVER said that I was too busy to visit. I did say that I was very busy and that if I was able to be around that area, I would stop by. I currently run two businesses. That means six days a week of work with 12 hours days as the norm. My dojo is always open to for visitors and I would assume that yours is as well. If I am in the area, I would have no problem training with you and Ron. At a minimum, I would greatly appreciate it if you would check with me your beliefs about what I say before trying to publicly state any alleged positions, statements, ideas, etc. of mine. I am frankly tired of this pattern of constant distortions. I hope that This once again, clarifies things for you. Marc Abrams |
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto
How did this become an Aikikai issue? There are just as many (more) people outside the Aikikai training this as inside, from what I can tell...
Koichi Tohei, and I'll mention him since you're in a Tohei related lineage, went way outside of Aikido to develop what he's doing - that wasn't a problem for you? Anyway, I'm not sure that you should judge what Dan is doing by George or Stan - no offense to either of them, that would go double in my case. As for: Quote:
Best, Chris |
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People can be enthusiastic and I understand that you might perceive this in the way you have but without knowing people personally I'd not be in such a hurry to brand them as you do with your statements regarding herds; from your continued expression of your perspective I could suggest you are a "blinkered horse" unable to see that which you have in front of you... I don't because I think it would be unfairly rude on my part; I have not met you and have no direct experience with what you're doing etc. It's also ok for each of us to disagree and believe that what we do is different/correct/better/whatever. Talking about our feelings in this regard is also ok, as is not participating where we don't feel like it's conducive to progress. I may agree or disagree with the manner in which you describe some things but that's by the by unless I know for sure that it's not simply a misunderstanding based on terminology. For example you use the term inner strength and I could assume you mean this in some manner relating to the discussions about "IS" or "IP" or "aiki" as per many of the threads on here and then point out where I think that's not correct, but I'm not sure so won't make the assumption. If you mean it in terms of something like mental/psychological/spiritual fortitude then I would probably agree and think that this applies in many types of training paradigms including those espoused by proponents of the IP/aiki training methods; though think this is a different subject to the "internal" subjects that are often a staple for discussion/debate/argumentation i.e. "inner strength" != "internal power"/"internal strength"/"internal skills" (pick your poison). Rich |
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Not all end up offering something I want to pursue further, but I have never felt that I was in danger and I have never felt that it had been a waste of time. There is usually something that I can bring to my daily practice. |
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Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto
Sounds like you are happy with your training, the people you train with and the culture your dojo has cultivated. Awesome. Really. :) That's pretty much all any of us are after.
Different people are after different things just as different people learn through different methods. Some people snowboard and some sick-backward-bottom-dwellers ski, it's all good. :rolleyes: (And just to be PERFECTLY clear, I mean my first paragraph whole heartedly, please don't put any sarcasm into it where none is intended. My jab at skiers is completely a joke, my daughters ski and I love them anyway...) :D |
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Second, you don't have to buy into the concept of besting another. But you do have to buy into the concept of besting yourself. That's masakatsu agatsu. Showing up and doing what you like will get you so far. After that, it gets you a seat to the back row where people stop looking for advice. Again, I like the idea that I should leave class better than when I entered class. Third, I do not like to be part of yet another thread intended to trash internal power. It works. If you do not like it, fine. But the herd mentality in aikido is of the majority suppressing the minority because the minority message rattles the foundation of aikido(TM). Internal Power just happens to be the flavor of the day (or days, as it turns out to be). Call BS, don't work with them. Eventually, you will be on the mat with one of these people and it will be plain who is better. This comparison will have nothing to do with what you like to do; it will have everything to do with who have been training aiki and who has been training aikido. I appreciate the frustration with the Internal Power groups. I understand the close network of excellent individuals; the top of the mountain starts to get small and crowded. The problem is shouting them down only works if it is loud enough no one can hear them talk. The problem is people are listening. Save yourself aggravation. Block the posts, call their stuff BS and roll the dice. The extend to my criticism goes as far as calling out the IP crowd. I have the same arguments with people to denigrate the MMA'ers, judo people and karateka who all want to help and learn about aikido. If you don't like it, fine. But right now it just seems like we're scared of them because they may actually know what they are doing... |
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It's no different from anything else in life. |
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto
Hi Mary
You did fine too like most aikido dojos I go to. What Dan is teaching and actually doing is way Beyond fine. Simple as that. Stan |
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As for me, I've lost count of the times I've watched Dan work with someone new and he'll ask the other person, show me what you're doing. They do. Dan shows that person what he's doing. Then he lets them decide which way they think is better. Quote:
Seminar example #1: As a beginner, I stood in a large room with no mats and probably 40 other people. Those people came from aikido, karate, taiji, etc. They all were curious about what was being said about IP/aiki. Working with them initially, I could see their doubts and reluctances to actually believe what was being said. I watched Dan work with each of them and watched as their doubts/reluctancy changed to hope, smiles, and laughter. I watched them trade back and forth on training their way and Dan's way. People were laughing then working up a sweat, then laughing, then working up a sweat. People from various martial arts were working together to train. Seminar example #2: Repeat #1, this time with a couple of 6th dans in aikido. All of us having a blast at the seminar, laughing, then working, then laughing. Trading budo stories at dinner. Also, it wasn't just all men. There were women from various martial arts there, too. Now, this continues through ... well, I lost track around 10. It's quite a sight to go to a seminar, look around at 4th, 5th, 6th degree black belts, koryu people, high ranking people from karate and taiji all working together, at times laughing until they are red in the face, then sweating buckets from training, then gladly swapping stories at dinner, trading contact info, looking to when the next time they can train together again. I know that Aikiweb forums are tough to use to get a good feel for someone, or a group of people. I know that personally because reading Sigman's posts and then meeting him in person was like talking to two completely different people. After meeting him, I read his posts in a far different manner. All I'm saying is keep an open mind. Quote:
There have been times when I've gone back to Dan and asked to reiterate some point in training only to find that I'd misconstrued what he'd said. It happens. Quote:
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The "IP crowd" tends to be very assertive. Ok, "take my wrist:" Maybe I am unable to make a beautiful form (like waza) from the interaction, but at least I can keep trying until I get a little better...and each time I can get a little better, and maybe eventually some crtical piece of info pops into place that makes things more meaningful on both ends of the exchange. The intent of my partner matters little where my self-corrective process is concerned. I can worry about their efforts to apply pressure or I can worry about how it's affecting me and address that part. Take care, Matt |
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto
I don't really understand the reason for this thread. If you are not interested in what is being discussed just refrain from reading and joining in. Easy peasy. It really does not matter why. Your training your choice.
But honestly. If I held back from trying things that were outside of my comfort zone I would never have entered a dojo to begin with. As a student am glad I have teachers who are willing to give new ideas and different approaches a try. Their having done so has really given our dojo some amazing experiences and insights. Perhaps we might not carry it forward in our own training perhaps we may, but at least we had the choice. I just don't understand why the need to be defensive and so loudly protest something which you are not forced to be a part of. |
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto
i can't stand intolerance people! :) *sorry couldn't help meself*
i can see why don't care for the IP/IS folks. they are kinda in your face all the time with their IP/aiki is the true IP/aiki. they just get on your nerves. just this morning, one of those buggers was right in my face, staring down at me, snarling and making rude comments. then my wife walked in and said "why are you standing there holding the shaver and making strange noises?" i said "i can't decide if i should shave my goatee or not!" wife said "use the electric clipper!". i tell you that women just don't understand us men at all! |
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Just go straight... Gary |
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I have a number of PM's to you specifically stating I would come and train with you. I have also remained complimentary of yours and Ron's efforts in spite of your repeated comments about me and those who train with me in an almost universally negative fashion. Ron has never expressed any interest in what I do. I remain confused as to when these invitations took place and why they would ever have been extended in light of your rather consistently negative comments of me. That said, again I think your training paradigm would only be enhanced by what I do. If you or Ron could do anything to move me or successfully blend with me using ki, aiki, or even martial arts.....I would be very intrigued. Dan |
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The thing is, it's possible to have useful discussions about motivation, mindset, commitment and what have you. It's almost never possible to do so in the second or third person, though -- not unless you know someone very, very well. I can talk with at least some authority about my motivation, mindset, commitment, and what have you. You, really, cannot. |
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto
That was a great post Mary but I see things a little simpler than that.
IP people generally raise hackles because once they feel this they say this is Aikido. it's my opinion that it has been a series of those in Aikido who choose to attack the IP people personally, describing them in every manner of derogatory commentary imaginable. I've seen it over and over, were I home at my computer I could prove it in about a half an hour: with articles from shihans and all manner of posts doing exactly as you described questioning motivations, practices, insinuating people are brainwashed, herd mentalities, con man, snake oil salesman.... the list goes on and on. Opinion is not required.... I've saved many of the posts. The real dispute should be over whether this work is in fact the original work Ueshiba was doing and that it is in fact the very heart of Aikido. It is that one...singular....point, that has caused people in the community to react and respond defensively. Being told you're not doing something correct or that you haven't understood something you been doing for years, is challenging enough for anyone. now hearing it is being played out and proved to be true on a worldwide stage, is not welcomed news for all parties involved. All too often this has evoked an emotional response from those in the community I think we can all do better. Dan |
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As for going outside of Aikido to find ki, PAG has it exactly right. Sensei says Harden's stuff is helping him to understand things Yamaguchi did and said, and that when he goes back and looks at Yamaguchi's videos that he now sees things he didn't see before. The whole point for him, and me, and a bunch of us is that we're finding Dan's stuff makes our Aikido better. As for the "Western philosophy of besting another" -- Western? Really? O-Sensei never talked about the people he had bested? He never held those successes up as a reason for believing in his aiki? Guess he didn't. Glad to be set straight. Sorry to bomb in on the thread and respond to one point without reading the whole thing, but I'm having a hard time keeping up with Aikiweb these days. In fact, I'm at a seminar with Sensei and the Devil Incarnate this weekend, but took out time for this. Happy training! |
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Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto
I've known Dan quite some time due to my professional world of swords. The dude has never been shy to share his opinions (although that reminds me -- he posed a question once years ago about a sword smith yaki-ire secret that he never answered -- gonna have to try to pin him down on that). Anyway, after a couple seminars with Dan (and Mike S and Toby and...) I will say I just see my Aikido differently now. I have lost count of the number of things I've realized that I missed in the past. Things that now go through different filters and help me see them in different ways. Does it make anything "wrong"? Nah, I don't think of it that way. I see it as people trying to communicate stuff that is by its very nature difficult to communicate. And ironically as someone teaching myself I see the same "how do I explain this?" conundrum in everything I do as well. I get a lot from every training session no matter who it is I'm training with. Heck, Jun held a Aikiweb seminar years ago that had Threadgil, Ledyard, and Aaron Clark. I got a ton from all three men. Heck, I learned a lot watching one of Aaron's students, a lovely woman who it turns out was a musician. I saw things in her movement that caused lightbulbs to turn on in my head with respect to stuff I had learned that were in some senses totally unrelated. I love that stuff.
I love to learn. I love to stretch my brain. I truly dislike feeling comfortable in what I do as it makes me wonder if I've become complacent. So y'all do whatever it is that floats your boat. And pardon my enthusiasm if I get a bit excited about something new I've learned even if it is just from watching a video of Ark hitting someone. Or realizing some deeper significance of something Toby mentioned in passing. Or having some epiphany about how I should be doing my Aikitaiso simply because of an exercise Dan taught me. I really don't see a problem. And comments about herd mentality, "drinking the koolaid", that kind of stuff simply don't help. I see posts from some trying to "defend the honor" of Aikido as it is currently practiced. Fine, whatever, but it is a waste of air IMHO. Frankly I don't think it needs defending -- good god, how many 10's of thousands practice Aikido? Hundreds of thousands? Pffft. Ignore the rest of us if it isn't what you like. If we're wrong we'll fade away over time. Time and experience has a habit of helping vacuous trends to vanish. Train. Train hard. Train well. Keep an open mind. And if you're the type that doesn't like disagreement or discussion, well, don't discuss. These are just pixels on a screen, devoid of power, devoid of any significance to the overwhelming majority of people. And Aikido will go where it goes no matter what any of us do. |
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto
Now... To get Howard Popkin out to So Cal for an intro to Daito Ryu... Context, more context, I need more context. Give me more, more, MORE!!!!!
Come on folks, grin some. And let it go, life's too damned short. Let's all grab a beer and tell bad stories. Heck, the best part of any seminar with someone like Toby is hearing the stories about what was really going on with various martial arts histories... I sometimes think I learn more about how things came about after the seminars after some beer waza... And fwiw... All these folks are just people. Regular folk wandering along their own path. |
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