Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts
Over at the Rum Soaked Fist (RSF) forum, there's a thread discussing a Chinese teacher and how he's showing internal skills. Worth reading since it touches upon Daito ryu methods, also.
http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7380 |
Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts
Mark, Dan,
That is gold. Thank you. Josh |
Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts
The man in the video is Chen taijiquan teacher Li Chugong, a long time student of Hong Junsheng.
Here is a clip of him demonstrating the jin in the yilu (first routine) of Hong's line. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Glp1ZyERe_E Allan |
Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts
I realize that there will be another of the many archived "sudden silence when telling questions are asked" answers, but let's take this comment by Dan Harden:
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"The root is in the feet, Jin is generated from the legs, controlled by the waist and expressed through the hands and fingers. From the feet to the legs to the waist must be integrated with one unified Qi." Could you give us your explanation of what "the one jin" is (a term that I introduced as far back as the 1990's)? Can you for just once explain in definitive terms what the factual problem is, rather than just throw my name out on BS public forums? At least on the old Neijia List we had the habit of explaining the issues rather than just trying to trivialize via assertion, self-proclamation, and so on. Regards, Mike Sigman |
Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts
For the love of god, give it a rest.
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts
Sorry... I didn't bring my name up. On the other hand, looking at some of your old posts................................. there's a sort of viciousness that seems to be making a resurgence. How about simple, straight replies?
Mike Sigman |
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts
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Mike Sigman |
Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts
I'll spread it out.... Dan, Liberti, Lorel... can you provide a good how-to description of the one jin?
Regards, Mike Sigman |
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts
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a. I don't respond to yu for the simple reason that your passive / agressive baiting nonsense is sophmoric, and I have no interest in your opinions on IP/ aiki. Why would I need or want to have a discussion with you? b. Instead of peppering all of your posts to me with personal digs and ugly inuendo- then playing the fauning "victim" when I reply to you in a more forthright, honest and direct manner, why don't you follow your own advice-stick to the topic. Your'e a grown man Mike, step up and state your points. c. This idea of yours that using your name will boost someones "standing" reveals a rather ugly and smug view of yourself, Mike. I don't even think in those terms. The topic So...I'm an "expert" now because I offered some advice on a forum, interesting. I was quoting Hong's position.This is what I said: Quote:
Since you disagree with him, and he wrote it, and some of his students have explained it- why don't you try explaining how a real expert like Hong, is so off-base. Dan |
Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts
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Quote: You also might want to consider that Hong considers peng to be chansi-jin, "the one jin" in the first place, and not rooting or bouncing out with the dantien or the Sigman ground path model; it's more inclusive and complex than a single path. [/quote] Obviously Hong didn't use my name, so you've indicated an opinion (via your assertion) about "chansi-jin", telling us that Hong considers chansi-jin (the reeling-silk jin/skill) to be the "one jin". The problem is that the core/one jin in Chen's taiji is "peng jin", which is there name for the neijin. The groundpath is, as I pointed out in my quote, the basic jin that goes from the foot, is controlled by the waist, and expressed by the hand. Hong knows that. The core variant of neijin/pengjin that the Chens style uses is chansi-jin, but it is not the core/peng jin. Since you made an assertion about what Hong believes and tossed my name into the pot, I asked you to explain. I doubt seriously that Hong or his people need you making misstatements/misunderstandings about what Hong knows. But I guarantee you that Hong understands that chansi-jin is simply an offshoot of the neijin. Anyone with basic knowledge knows that. FWIW Mike |
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Since you made an assertion about what Hong believes and tossed my name into the pot, I asked you to explain. I doubt seriously that Hong or his people need you making misstatements/misunderstandings about what Hong knows. But I guarantee you that Hong understands that chansi-jin is simply an offshoot of the neijin. Anyone with basic knowledge knows that. FWIW Mike |
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts
Hi Mike,
Who is the real expert that we can ask, who are you referring to. stan |
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I offered a description of someone else, coupled with what has been explained by a couple of his top people (which for some strange reason lined up with what I later read of Hong's stated view). By their own deliberate choice- it differentiated itself from any discussion of a single path -into a duality that must exist at all times-as one. It's their interpretation; your opinion, or mine was neither asked for, or required. Attempting to disqualify anything that doesn't agree with your own limited understanding as an "outsider," is a dicey game. I don't agree with everything I read, hear and feel-particularly the results of what it did for some people, but that's different from a presumption of knowing what every master level teacher of the ICMA thinks, believes, interprets and teaches within their own lineage. Dan |
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Mike Sigman |
Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts
The jin that starts from the feet, is controlled by the waist and is expressed in the fingers
Incidentally, that very well known classical statement is not just unique to Taiji; variations are found in a number of arts. It is the path from the ground to the hands. What I call the "groundpath". The people who don't understand the "groundpath" don't understand the basics of I.S. more than superficially. It's worth it to note how often someone puts his foot into it by belittling the idea of the oh-so-obvious term "groundpath". Granted it's not a Chinese term like neijin or pengjin... but it doesn't take a genius to figure it out. Even though Chen Xiaowang's English is limited, he refers to the one jin that goes from the point of contact to the ground. So in line with the discussion topic about similarities in I.S. between CMA's and Japanese MA's, someone give me an example of where Tohei, Ueshiba, etc., were standing against a push or pull and *not* using a groundpath. Moving with a groundpath/jin? Linear movement is called "chou ssujin" (pulling silk). Spiralling movement is called "chanssujin" (reeling silk). They are both built from the static one-jin of the groundpath. There it is and no one can logically argue it, so probably the conversation will go back to the personal. :rolleyes: FWIW Mike Sigman |
Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts
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Let's examine that -including the one above- and let everyone decide. I stated a topic related and accurate comment on another board: Quote:
To which I received (bold notations added by me): Quote:
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I do it often, just not with you. Talking with you is a waste of my time that I enjoy occasionally- like today on a beautiful snowing day here in New England. Quote:
Remember the disgusted posts from people over the years about how all your posts seem to be advertisements for Dan Harden's greatness? (cheap shot 8) You haven't changed. If you have any knowledge, try showing it by debating a point rather than trivializing everyone. (cheap shot 9) Again, do you think you are capable of making a post and not personally attacking me with this passive / agressive nonsense and then playing "the sensitive victim" when I respond to it in a very direct manner? Good luck in your search Dan |
Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts
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The "ground path" is your term not theirs. Although it's not bad; it is simplistic in it's scope and what it can mean (sort of like Tohei's). The use of a single ground path instead of the duality in the body at the same time is and has been disputed by men far more accomplished than you or I. Again I advise people to dismiss the arguing of morons on the net and go pursue the real experts. IP/aiki is much more in depth than what you are going to find in Aikido or those who want you to focus on breath power and pushing or even Tohei's own limited understanding. And there are methods that can be used for "actual fighting" and all that entails, though it apears many just are not capable of doing or teaching those aspects. If you want it-it's there to discover. Good luck in your search Dan |
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Regards, Mike Sigman |
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Nice dodge of the cheap shot post. That was when you first drew my attention. Whatever made you think I wanted to come visit you to *learn* anything? I've visited a lot of people for different reasons. The Internet I've never once seen you even begin to adequately address the way we move. Not even close. In fact all of your posturing, and beating of your chest about your posting history, and drawings and explanations both here and on the neijia list has resulted in what? Nothing more than beginner level stuff with a few drawings. And your Tohei one-legged-army ground vector stuff you go on about ad nauseum is so simplistic and rudimentary that it fully explains why he looked and moved like he did. You may be impressed by him, but I sure as hell never was. Your comments about the duality being the ground path+ gravity doesn't even begin to cover what we do, nice try though. Your ground path idea-while correct- is too simplistic. Why did I reference it? Since your Neijia list, ground path model is known and out there, it was a good starting point to address; sort of like the hip-tied-to-shoulders is the well known and accepted way many martial artists move; yours is a good starting point to show where to begin and then to get away from, for better power and stability and better fighting movement later on. If you know more or have more, and I presume you do (I always like to think the better of you) you have yet to write it down anywhere. Past all your rhetoric, your shtick seems to be to get others to talk than you follow with comments. While I have appreciated your efforts to get the word out-you continue to overplay your hand. Good luck in you search Dan |
Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts
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"Posturing"? Pooh. No person on the internet brags about himself as much as you do. If nothing else, you've cut yourself off from a number of sources of information with your egocentricity. So what's your belief... that you already know everything? If you do, I guess you're safe in alienating as many potential sources of information as you have by the things you've said about people in your posts about yourself. Think about this. The main reason strife and contention initiates on various forums is because people with wannabe or 'established' credentials react defensively when they feel that there is a challenge to their status. I see you doing just that. Whether it's talk about "koryu", or "you have to come to my school because I can't discuss basics in public", or whatever, these are just variants of the old pecking-order psychology. The old neijia list was anomalous in that if someone entered the discussion with a claim (or if a current list-member made a claim), the discussion went to "how does it work", not into a defense of position/status. And the idea that someone in any school, koryu, whatever, can't even discuss basics is fatuous.... only a neophyte would use such an excuse when it becomes obvious that the basics are known by many people. So the big difference between you and me is that I don't particularly care about the topic other than as an interesting discussion that leads toward further progress; you appear to be establishing a typical pecking-order with you on top and trivializing comments made about anyone you feel threatened by. That's fine, Dan, but leave me out of your ill-disguised expectations. There are a couple of people that have an interest in keeping a file on how much you can't answer over the last 5 years, how often you have gone silent over the years when a question is asked that you can't answer, how often you have gone back and literally pulled off your posts from forums when you've become embarrassed, and so on. You might take the time to review some of your historical comments and actions and statements about I.S. and understand that you can't reinvent your expertise with each new thread, Dan. There are archives to consider. Lastly, each time I ask you to explain something, I'm doing so from a public claim that you've made and I take you at your word that you're an expert. So, the next time I ask you a functional "how-to" question, think about your choices: you can either try to start yet another diversionary attack against me personally or you can shut me down with your expertise, which of course must be far higher than my "amateur" level, right? :cool: Your inability to answer (or to answer correctly in a number of cases) stands out like a beacon. Mike Sigman |
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Normally, I'd let the "big boys" go at it. Guess not today.
Quit the personal bickering, please. I'd rather not see Jun shut this thread down. I read the RSF thread and it's actually going somewhere. I'd hoped it would do so here. Is that possible? Thanks, Mark |
Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts
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Mike |
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