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Chikai Aikidoka 05-07-2006 04:12 AM

Diff. styles, 1 Aikido
 
What about to say should not be taking out of context as being a bias toward one style or other. Please take it w/ :ai: :ki:

I got into an arguement with someone who implied that Aikikai IS the authority on Aikido and that "all other federations are not recognized by Aikikai Honbu dojo"

I asked him more or less what is Aikido?
Is it the one that O'sensei taught pre WWII?
Or Is it the one that O'sensei taught post WWII?
Or Is it the one that O'sensei taught at Iwama?
Or Is it the one that O'sensei taught to his different diciples at diff. times?
Or aren't all of them Aikido?

I furher added that a lot of those O'senesei disciples that established their own schools where either ushi dashis of O'sensei or long time students of his.

To my surprise, he's been doing Aikido for more than 3 years and yet I sensed that he think only those dojos who are recognized (as in registered I think) by Aikikai are the right Aikido schools.

How do I politically correctly put it to him that althought they're diff. schools of style but at the end it's a 1 Aikido with the same principles w/ diff. flavors??

P.S. Our sensei traces our Aikido lineage to Ki-society and Aikikai and currently under the advisory of a Yoshinkan school. What I see in our training seems Aikikai. :confused: & :cool: about it :D

Jorge Garcia 05-07-2006 09:11 AM

Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido
 
I think you have a point. The Aikikai is the parent organization of Aikido and represents the last developments in the art of Aikido as taught by the Ueshiba family. The others are not only reflections of what the Founder taught at different times but they are also representations of what those individual leaders discovered and developed themselves.
O Sensei said that Aikido had no set form - that it was a "study of the spirit." My own teacher has said to me that Aikido has no form. If that is the case, then the styles are not what this is about. That's why many styles are allowed within the Aikikai.
Aikido is about principles and when those universal principles are in play, you have Aikido, whatever the style.

Aikido organizations are not really about styles. Like all organizations, they may have a product to promote and indeed, one that distinguishes them from other groups, but they are really about jurisdiction and authority. The battle of organizations is one to gain power through greater jurisdiction. The great names the organizations promote are to establish authority thus helping them in the quest for organizational "life" or jurisdiction. That is not to say that all are equal or as efficient and fair as they could be. That is a matter of organizational integrity and ethics but when push comes to shove, the organizations are about jurisdiction and establishing authority by means of gaining legitimacy and respect in the eyes of the public. (Size and an early point of origin are helps in the quest for legitimacy.) As that (legitimacy in the eyes of potential and actual constituents ) rises and falls, so does the fate of an organization. The Aikikai certainly has an advantage there but all the other organizations have to play the same game because they are playing in the same arena.
Best wishes,

Hanna B 05-07-2006 01:11 PM

Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido
 
Quote:

Jorge Garcia wrote:
The Aikikai is the parent organization of Aikido and represents the last developments in the art of Aikido as taught by the Ueshiba family. The others are not only reflections of what the Founder taught at different times but they are also representations of what those individual leaders discovered and developed themselves.

IMHO this is not correct. Take a look at Nisho sensei. His aikido is a product of his being taught by osensei but also by his iaido, karate etcetera. His aikido is a very special line of aikido - within the Aikikai. I am sure there are many lines of aikido outside of the Aikikai, that technically are more mainstream than Nishio sensei.

Jorge Garcia 05-07-2006 02:09 PM

Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido
 
My statement was,
"The Aikikai is the parent organization of Aikido and represents the last developments in the art of Aikido as taught by the Ueshiba family."

I was making a statement as to the official teaching of the Aikikai as espoused or taught by the Doshu as the representative of the Ueshiba family. Lots of Senseis within the Aikikai who teach under the Doshu have a different style including my own teacher. Those aren't the last developments of the Ueshiba family. Those are the last developments of Nishio Sensei or Saito sensei or whoever.The only official teaching of the Aikikai Foundation is represented in Doshu. Last time I checked, Doshu wasn't doing Nishio style nor are Nishio's books being sold by the Aikikai Hombu dojo.
Thanks for your comment anyway. I know you were trying to help.

Hanna B 05-07-2006 02:15 PM

Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido
 
Thank you for your comment Jorge. I know you are trying to help the thread starter here.

Jorge Garcia 05-07-2006 03:56 PM

Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido
 
Thanks Hanna,
The point is anyway that I don't think that only the Aikikai does the only true or correct Aikido.
Best wishes,

Lan Powers 05-07-2006 07:19 PM

Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido
 
Personally, the differences between the different players...how they move, what they each emphasize, the ways they each get from point "A" to "B" are what keeps this whole art so interesting.
Much richer, for the differences.
Lan

Hanna B 05-07-2006 11:21 PM

Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido
 
Thank you, Jorge.

Hanna B 05-07-2006 11:35 PM

Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido
 
Quote:

Maumote Chami wrote:
got into an arguement with someone who implied that Aikikai IS the authority on Aikido and that "all other federations are not recognized by Aikikai Honbu dojo"

(snip)

To my surprise, he's been doing Aikido for more than 3 years and yet I sensed that he think only those dojos who are recognized (as in registered I think) by Aikikai are the right Aikido schools.

How do I politically correctly put it to him that althought they're diff. schools of style but at the end it's a 1 Aikido with the same principles w/ diff. flavors??

Well, if your teacher's lineage goes back to Ueshiba, it is aikido... Of course non-Aikikai dojos are not recognised by the Aikikai. Non-Yoshinkan dojos are not recognised by the Yoshinkan, etc. What is within the Aikikai and what is not, is a matter of politics more than anything else. I am not sure what you should tell this individual, though. Maybe his teacher is saying this stuff, to make his students feel very proud to belong to the only "real" dojo in the area or similar. If so, I do not suppose there is anything you can say to make him change his mind. What he is saying is basically "my school is better than your school", "my daddy is stronger than your daddy" and that kind of arguments is a dead end street.

Chikai Aikidoka 05-08-2006 01:52 AM

Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido
 
I definitly agree with u Hanna that the argument I had touches on the issue of pride and on "my school is better than your school", "my daddy is stronger than your daddy". And that's the issue I was trying to argue with him about; they all are schools of Aikido as long as, IMHO, the core principles and concepts are intacts. They r diff. ways to get to the summit; I c these ways are close to each others. Hey ... rn't waving at each others in this forum while we're doing Aikido each in his/her training path?

But has Aikikai, Yoshinkan, Iwama, Yoseikan, etc. ever nullified the teaching of each others and claimed that it was not Aikido that the other side practiced? I wouldn't think so. Right?!

P.S. ur daddy might be stronger than mine, but mine carries a licensed concealed 0.45 ... watch out ... Just kidding :-D

Amir Krause 05-08-2006 04:07 AM

Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido
 
Quote:

Well, if your teacher's lineage goes back to Ueshiba, it is aikido
Unless you practice Korindo Aikido or some other Aikido M.A. that does not relate itself to Ueshiba.

Maumote Chami

I doubt you could educate him. Too many people take their sensei words as fact, without ever checking them. They forget the Sensei is only human himself and may have never bothered to really study some aspects for which he did not care. Such aspects could be the history of the M.A., the nature of the various organizations, etc.

Amie

Hanna B 05-08-2006 05:01 AM

Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido
 
Amir, I am ignorant what Korindo aikido regards - I just did som googling. As far as I can see, Korindo aikido does have roots in Ueshiba's art, and it seems it is sometimes referred to as aikido and sometimes not. If it does have aikido roots and works in similar ways (basical principles etc), then nobody can say it is incorrect to call it aikido - no? The web pages I found were very clear in pointing out differences, but that kind of thing is difficult to judge for someone who, like me, has not seen the art.

At the same time, if the pracitioners and the head of the art does not want it to be called aikido, then it is not aikido... I recently watched a jiujitsu class, in a small system with only five dojos in total. I was almost chocked to see that the techniques were even called ikkyo and sankyo - they were simply doing aikido without high falls wearing coloured belts (which nobody does around here) claiming that "aikido is a art for personal growth and harmony with the universe, we are doing self defence". I can imagine one or two aikido teachers not agreing with their view on what aikido is, but who cares. Based on the techiniques it was most definately aikido, but they call it jiujitsu, which is a namn that no lineage has exclusive right to... well okay. Then it isn't aikido, I guess. They probably had some judo mixed in with that aikido-so-called-jiujitsu, too.

Jorge Garcia 05-08-2006 07:22 AM

Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido
 
Quote:

Maumote Chami wrote:
I definitly agree with u Hanna that the argument I had touches on the issue of pride and on "my school is better than your school", "my daddy is stronger than your daddy". And that's the issue I was trying to argue with him about; they all are schools of Aikido as long as, IMHO, the core principles and concepts are intacts. They r diff. ways to get to the summit; I c these ways are close to each others. Hey ... rn't waving at each others in this forum while we're doing Aikido each in his/her training path?

But has Aikikai, Yoshinkan, Iwama, Yoseikan, etc. ever nullified the teaching of each others and claimed that it was not Aikido that the other side practiced? I wouldn't think so. Right?!

P.S. ur daddy might be stronger than mine, but mine carries a licensed concealed 0.45 ... watch out ... Just kidding :-D


I think almost everyone I have met at one time or another has had an attitude like that. It is human nature to believe we are attached to the best and to look a little down on our neighbor thus lifting ourselves up. It has to do with a desire to build our self identity.
It's a disease of the fallen soul and a part of even the best of us. The most we can do is to catch ourselves when we do it and to try and be as charitable as possible. A Sensei once told me that he was strictly taught by his Shihan never to criticize other instructors but when his Shihan was drunk, all he did was to criticize other instructors. Thankfully, when he was sober, he never did but deep in there, the criticism lived. The alcohol weakened his resolve not to criticize so it was revealed at those times. In a way, it is admirable that he would hold it back but revealing to know that it was still there.
Best,

Ron Tisdale 05-08-2006 07:48 AM

Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido
 
[quoteOf course non-Aikikai dojos are not recognised by the Aikikai. Non-Yoshinkan dojos are not recognised by the Yoshinkan, etc.[/quote]

Hi, may I ask what you mean by "recognise"? The Yoshinkan was started with Ueshiba Sensei's permission and blessing, and to this day, the head of the Yoshinkan attends the All Japan Aikido Demonstration given by the Aikikai, and he sits at the head table.

As far as I know, there is no "recognition" of rank between the two organinzations...perhaps that is what you meant.

Best,
Ron

Mark Freeman 05-08-2006 08:05 AM

Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido
 
I belong to a federation that is not affiliated to the Aikikai. It's not something that normally enters my consciousness.
I practice with a teacher who has learnt from a number of O'Sensei's direct students, as far as I'm concerned, the quality of your teacher and his/her teaching is far more important than the name of the organisation or the 'validity' that is given or not by a 'governing body'.
I have no negative thoughts regarding any other aikido 'group' as long as they uphold the spirit of O'Sensei's teaching.

regards,
Mark

Hanna B 05-08-2006 08:20 AM

Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote:
As far as I know, there is no "recognition" of rank between the two organinzations...perhaps that is what you meant.

I was unclear, but you last assumption fits well with what I meant. Maybe Yoshinkan has another terminology, but when a national aikido organisation - or another organisation - "belongs" to Aikikai, and have their dan ranks through the Aikikai, it is pronounced in the way that they have "recognition" from the Aikikai hombu. The thread starter said that his friend said "all other federations are not recognized by Aikikai Honbu dojo" and well, in a way it is true but it still means nothing. That is what I wanted to say. Assuming that other aikido styles should need "recognition" from the Aikikai is to see the Aikikai as the center of the aikido universe - which I am sure you do not. ;)

Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote:
The Yoshinkan was started with Ueshiba Sensei's permission and blessing, and to this day, the head of the Yoshinkan attends the All Japan Aikido Demonstration given by the Aikikai, and he sits at the head table.

Well, Chikai Aikidoka - if your friend continues his talk, maybe this is something to tell him! I would not spend too much energy on it, though. Chances are he will never be convinced. If it does come from his teacher... be sure he never will, because people in general just can not face that their teachers are wrong about things, and if so it is probably better the less you talk about the matter. We believe and obey authority - we are created that way. It is so easy for people from a big organisations or styles to look down on smaller ones - the opposite is also quite possible but less common, and generally looks slightly different.

Hanna B 05-08-2006 08:37 AM

Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido
 
I had a friend in the US who has moved about quite a lot, and on one occasion the only available dojo that he thought was good was an independent dojo. As I understand the story the main teacher of this dojo somehow got caught inbetween when Tohei split the Aikikai back around 1970, and ended up independent. My friend was slightly reluctant to take gradings in this dojo, since he wanted Aikikai ranks. As I told you he moves a lot, and everywhere in the world aikido people know what an Aikikai rank is (at least in theory. In reality it varies a lot but that is another issue). A rank from an independent dojo could be anything from a rank given by an excellent teacher to some bogus, and unless you know about the teacher you do not know what the rank means.

When my friend eventually transferred to an Aikikai dojo, there was no problem with his kyu ranks - he could continue from the rank he had been given by the independent teacher, probably because this independent teacher is wellknown and respected and also my friend had trained quite many years compared to his rank. My friend took his shodan in the Aikikai dojo, and values his Aikikai shodan a lot more than he would have a shodan from this independent teacher - but had he truly been this independent teacher's student, I am sure he would have felt otherwise. Everyone involved must admit that my friend's time was better spent in this independent teacher's dojo than in some Aikikai dojo with less outstanding teacher. Obviously, no one really cared about "Aikikai" or "not Aikikai" for any other reason than the ranks.

David Yap 05-09-2006 12:33 AM

Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido
 
Hi Maumote Chami,

Quote:

Maumote Chami wrote:
How do I politically correctly put it to him that although they're diff. schools of style but at the end it's a 1 Aikido with the same principles w/ diff. flavors??

Aikido is already a complex art to study for anyone who do not have any prior MA training. To get into the politics of the various aikido organizations only intense its complexity. IMO, it is a study by itself. You need to go into the history and evolution of aikido and its respective organizations. The politics of the major organizations and the politics within these organizations and their affiliates is a never ending subject considering all (human) factors that created the politics. Sadly but realistically, rankings are tools of such politics.

We always look at Aikido as a MA created by M Ueshiba. Then, it is also argued that the term "Aikido" is also used as a classification/label by the DAI NIHON BUTOKUKAI to cover all similar MA - e.g. Korindo Aikido. Interview with Minoru Hirai sensei Generally, the aikido we refer to and train in is the aikido of M Ueshiba and the major organizations of this lineage are:

Controlled and managed by his direct descendants - Aikikai
Of his direct students -
Yoshinkan Aikido - Gozo Shioda
Shin shin Toitsu Aikido - Koichi Tohei
Tomiki Aikido - Kenji Tomiki
Aiki Manseido - Kanshu Sunadomari
Yoseikan - Minoru Mochizuki
Tendoryu Aikido - Kenji Shimizu
and the latest addition - Shin shin Aiki Shuren-Kai - Hirohito Saito (trained as child with O Sensei)

As for the ART, you are right about, "..but at the end it's a 1 Aikido". There are different paths to go up a mountain but the view is the same at the top. I agree with Lan -
Quote:

..get from point "A" to "B" are what keeps this whole art so interesting
To enjoy the journey, we must remain a student and forget about the ranks and hakama.

As for your friend - do you need to correct him? IMO, no. Just ask him to do his own research rather than listening to his teacher. That 25% of the teaching may not be 100% right :D

Best training

David Y

Chris Li 05-09-2006 01:20 AM

Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido
 
Quote:

Maumote Chami wrote:
But has Aikikai, Yoshinkan, Iwama, Yoseikan, etc. ever nullified the teaching of each others and claimed that it was not Aikido that the other side practiced? I wouldn't think so. Right?!

Well, Moriteru Ueshiba stated outright in "Best Aikido" that "styles that practiced compeition" (ie Shodokan) were not Aikido.

Of course, people have to make up their own minds as to whether they agree with that viewpoint or not.

I know that the "many roads up the same mountain" view is politically correct, but in all fairness, since some things are obviously not Aikido there must be some point at which something becomes "not Aikido", even in spite of some past connection to Morihei Ueshiba. The exact location of that point I leave as an exercise to the reader :).

Best,

Chris

villrg0a 05-09-2006 01:58 AM

Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido
 
IMHO there is only one Aikido. Tell him that it is the manner in which they are taught that makes the difference. Some concentrates on variations, some on basics. Others on flowing, others on static. Others on self-defense, others for exercise, etc., etc. Depending on your affiliation, the method of teaching and focus on training varies.

Yann Golanski 05-09-2006 02:02 AM

Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote:
Well, Moriteru Ueshiba stated outright in "Best Aikido" that "styles that practiced compeition" (ie Shodokan) were not Aikido.

Odd that his father, the guy who started Aikido did not mind at all that there was a style with competition in it. Ueshiba was very competitive himself in his younger years. He seemed to have mellowed down in his old age.

Anyway, the people who understand, understand prefectly.

Hanna B 05-09-2006 02:13 AM

Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido
 
Quote:

Yann Golanski wrote:
Odd that his father, the guy who started Aikido did not mind at all that there was a style with competition in it.

You know that for sure? I have read otherwise, do not remember where though.

David Yap 05-09-2006 02:43 AM

Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido
 
Hi all,

There is always something about coincidences - coincidentally, these two just crop up in the Aikido Journal blogs while we were on this subject:

Interview with Doshu & Moriteru Ueshiba and
Aikido - Hierarchy versus Rhizome

Read on

David Y

Yann Golanski 05-09-2006 03:52 AM

Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido
 
Quote:

Hanna Björk wrote:
You know that for sure? I have read otherwise, do not remember where though.

Which bit?

The first one was from Tomiki himself who said that Ueshiba never asked him to leave the Aikikai nor asked him to stop teaching randori. Shodokan home page reference

The second one comes from Ueshiba's attitude in his youth. He did not mind other "testing" his Aikido and that is a competitive attitude.

So, yeah I do know for sure.

Hanna B 05-09-2006 03:57 AM

Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido
 
Quote:

Yann Golanski wrote:
The first one was from Tomiki himself who said that Ueshiba never asked him to leave the Aikikai nor asked him to stop teaching randori. Shodokan home page reference

What I remember is an interview with an Aikikai shihan (don't remember who) where he told how osensei would be irritated when people mentioned Tomiki's name, and complain about how he introduced competition in aikido. It could be an "urban myth", I do not know.

PeterR 05-09-2006 04:03 AM

Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido
 
Yann

I think you mean the grandfather and I think it would be putting it mildly to say that kaiso had misgivings about the inclusion of a competitive element into the training.

Still Tomiki was a member of the Aikikai and only set up a separate organization several years after Ueshiba M. died when things started to become difficult.

SeiserL 05-09-2006 07:54 AM

Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido
 
While I tend to see 1 Aikido from Osensei being taught with different emphasis by different organizations, I find it a waste of time and energy to attempt to talk someone out of their politics. Its just another form of competition. Let people believe what they want from their own training, education, and experience. Its not right/wrong, good/bad, its just different and thats okay. Not everyone has to agree with me.

David Yap 05-09-2006 10:28 AM

Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido
 
Quote:

Lynn Seiser wrote:
While I tend to see 1 Aikido from Osensei being taught with different emphasis by different organizations, I find it a waste of time and energy to attempt to talk someone out of their politics. Its just another form of competition. Let people believe what they want from their own training, education, and experience. Its not right/wrong, good/bad, its just different and thats okay. Not everyone has to agree with me.

I do. :)

For me, I don't bother with politics. My prime objective at a selected dojo is to be trained and to be educated and this depends very much on the integrity and competence of the instructor(s) to deliver these emphasis that I am buying into. E.g. if an instructor emphasize on SD then he should teach techniques inlaid with the principles of SD; anything short of these principles is misleading as far as I am concerned.

phil farmer 05-09-2006 12:25 PM

Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido
 
I have read this thread and am reminded that this argument/discussion has been going on for years. Yoseikan is one of the oldest branches of the aiki tree. Minoru Mochizuki did indeed leave O Sensei to create his own style. That style, Yoseikan, has always been considered a part of aiki. And, there has been randori for years, to test the skills of each practitioner. Mochizuki Sensei was a fierce competitor in his youth and early adulthood, as demonstrated by the story about him in Prannin's book about his two judo competitions in one day. Mochizuki Sensei was disturbed by the practice of martial arts for sheer sport and castigated judo for becoming, in his words godo, the way of strength and force not judo.

A student of O Sensei from the 50's was Hiroo Mochizuki, son of Minoru. He later was sent to France, in 1963 to teach, among other things aiki. Over the years, he developed Yoseikan Budo and it does have competition. Hiroo Sensei's belief is that his father's art should probably never have been called aiki but instead a soft jiujitsu. As aiki styles go Yoseikan is a very hard form, closer to aikijutsu or daito ryu than what we see practiced in aikikai and other dojo today. But in spite of all of this, Yoseikan does not forget its roots and always pays honor to the impact O Sensei had and still has on Yoseikan.

I was honored to attend a clinic with Kato Sensei in Houston Texas and he was very kind with regard to the Mochizuki family and Yoseikan Budo. Perhaps we should seek out our commonalities and interact based on those.

Phil Farmer

Chris Li 05-09-2006 12:28 PM

Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido
 
Quote:

Yann Golanski wrote:
Which bit?

The first one was from Tomiki himself who said that Ueshiba never asked him to leave the Aikikai nor asked him to stop teaching randori. Shodokan home page reference

The second one comes from Ueshiba's attitude in his youth. He did not mind other "testing" his Aikido and that is a competitive attitude.

So, yeah I do know for sure.

As Peter said, you mean Morihei the grandfather, not Kisshomaru the father. Kisshomaru, of course, is on record publicly as to his opposition to the inclusion of competition in Aikido. Further, in "Take Musu Aiki" Morihei speaks a number of times of competition (both in the sense of being competitive and in the sense of holding competitive matches) as being "strictly forbidden" in Aikido (his words).

True, Morihei didn't mind "testing" his skills in his youth, but the leap from there to an endorsement of competitive matches (which is what Moriteru was talking about in "Best Aikido") is rather large.

Best,

Chris

David Yap 05-10-2006 11:00 PM

Transition from competition to non-competition
 
Hi all,

Quote:

Kisshomaru, of course, is on record publicly as to his opposition to the inclusion of competition in Aikido. Further, in "Take Musu Aiki" Morihei speaks a number of times of competition (both in the sense of being competitive and in the sense of holding competitive matches) as being "strictly forbidden" in Aikido (his words).
Chris, this is not a direct reply to your post, just borrowing your quote.

If we care to research into the backgrounds of the great martial artists of the last century we would note some of these great and enlightened masters who advocate non-violence and non-competition were those who could walk the talk. These guys at their prime were competitive fighters and from these experience they concluded their versions of "true budo". The fact that we know they were at their prime is from the records that they were accepting challenges from others and M Ueshiba was amongst these greats.

All if not, most of the first generation shihan and current shihan have had made that transition - coming from competitive martial art/martial sport such as kendo, judo or karate. For some, karate is not even consider a martial art (budo) but a civil fighting art. The point I am trying to make is that our present aikido techniques are developed from such challenges - it is a fighting art to begin with. This draws some of us to aikido (the art). Some of us may be drawn by its philosophical appeal (the do) and even that (if I may speak for myself) most in these group of ppl have prior competition experience in other MA before aikido.

It is often said that we "fight" (depending ourselves) we train. Yet I see the words "Self-defense" in flyers and advertisement put up by aikido dojo (Aikikai included). In these dojo that purport to teach/emphasize self-defense, some instructors have no competitive experience let alone in a real fight. They proceed to teach beginners flowing aikido - "this is what you do when someone grabs you here or here..."

Without the experience of competition, how can we stop aikido from being watered down as a martial art as it is passed down from generation to generation? Perhaps, years to come, our future generations may go to temples to learn aikido instead of dojo to train aikido.

Just my thoughts.

Best training

David Y

Chris Li 05-10-2006 11:27 PM

Re: Transition from competition to non-competition
 
Quote:

David Yap wrote:
Without the experience of competition, how can we stop aikido from being watered down as a martial art as it is passed down from generation to generation? Perhaps, years to come, our future generations may go to temples to learn aikido instead of dojo to train aikido.

Actually, the word "dojo" comes from a word for a temple originally - it was later adopted by martial artists.

Ironically, many of the people who are against competition use exactly the same argument - that competition leads to watering down of the martial arts as they are passed from generation to generation. Gichin Funakoshi argued from that perspective, and so do a number of prominent Judo instructors who ended up disillusioned with what competition did to the art,

Kisshomaru discusses this point quite fairly, I think, when expressing his opinions on the subject in "Aikido Ichiro". In the end, I don't think that either approach can really offer a guarantee - you make your choice, do the best that you can, and hope that things turn out OK.

Best,

Chris

David Yap 05-11-2006 01:11 AM

Re: Transition from competition to non-competition
 
Hi Chris,
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote:
Actually, the word "dojo" comes from a word for a temple originally - it was later adopted by martial artists.

Probably Taoist.

Quote:

Ironically, many of the people who are against competition use exactly the same argument - that competition leads to watering down of the martial arts as they are passed from generation to generation. Gichin Funakoshi argued from that perspective, and so do a number of prominent Judo instructors who ended up disillusioned with what competition did to the art,
Competitions do not kill the art, the rules of competitions do. Competitions are transitional - things that we do in our youth. Funakoshi also said that karate-do is a lifelong study. Personally I have made the transition from competition (kumite & kata) back to traditional. It was this pursue that took me to aikido. At one point, I was disillusioned with aikido and I concentrated just on traditional karate. Studying the oyo of the traditional kata I saw the similarities with aikido movements and I realized the weakness was not in the art but with the people purporting to teach the art. Sadly, there are more serious injuries in aikido than I have seen in karate and most of such injuries were dished out by incompetent instructors - an unilateral act of violence perhaps due to lack of competition.

I read that J Kano sensei also realized the pros and cons of competitions. Aside from randori, he also drew up sets of kata for the purpose of solo practice and to preserve the martial techniques. Are these kata still practised in Kodokan and in all judo institutions?

Quote:

snip..In the end, I don't think that either approach can really offer a guarantee - you make your choice, do the best that you can, and hope that things turn out OK.
This I agree. Morihei Ueshiba didn't emphasize on the concept of Shu-Ha-Ri to transmit his art. For him, aikido is ever evolving. But for us the students, the path has to start from one point. The differences (or some may see it as a competition itself) between the various aikido schools and even between the aikikai shihan are because they started us on the path at different points. Somewhere on this path is a stretch that is marked "Competition"; it is either one passed through this stretch or take a detour. The detour may cost us the extra time and effort and like you said, there is no guarantee that we will arrive.

Best regards

David Y

Yann Golanski 05-11-2006 01:12 AM

Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido
 
Competition is the only way to safely test your skills. Competition leads to a water down of techniques to make them safe so that both practitioners can go home happy. This leads to less effective techniques and "rule playing" instead of real training.

Those I think are the two views on competition. We are not going to decide which is best -- both points are in fact valid and too general to be of any use. What saddens me is that people who practice a martial art sometime called "the way of harmony" show such disregard for the opinion of others. That comment applies on either side of the divide.

Personally, I use competition as a way to train in and improve my Aikido. If I want a nice gold medal, I can get one for 20 pences and it's made of chocolate.... Hum... chocolate.

On a final note, Aikido (whatever the style) gives you an edge in self defense/fighting. So does a knife, a gun or Buba the giant psychopathic red neck who would die for you.

Chris Li 05-11-2006 01:34 AM

Re: Transition from competition to non-competition
 
Quote:

David Yap wrote:
Hi Chris,

Probably Taoist.

Buddhist, actually, Taoism never made it big in Japan.

Best,

Chris

David Yap 05-11-2006 01:48 AM

Re: Transition from competition to non-competition
 
Quote:

David Yap wrote:
Somewhere on this path is a stretch that is marked "Competition"; it is either one passed through this stretch or take a detour. The detour may cost us the extra time and effort and like you said, there is no guarantee that we will arrive.

Oops! I forgot to add that for some of us who choose to pass the "Competition" stretch of the path - some took too long to pass and some didn't move on at all.

Chikai Aikidoka 05-11-2006 04:13 AM

Try other MA 1st?!!
 
Different styles, IMHO, come from the different MA style background of O'sensei's diciples. Don't you think so?

Since a lot of those disciples picked up Aikido after they were masters in something else, I would also think and assume that their approach to teaching, to training, to testing, to experimenting and to application would be different say from those who started Aikido without any prior other MA.

Should we follow some sort of similar paths (eg, juijitsu->aikijutsu->aikido, or juijitsu->judo->aikido)? And I don't mean we have to get experts and be masters in those MA before we go to Aikido, but rather feel and try their main principles and then head straight to Aikido.

Hanna B 05-11-2006 04:27 AM

Re: Try other MA 1st?!!
 
Quote:

Maumote Chami wrote:
Different styles, IMHO, come from the different MA style background of O'sensei's diciples. Don't you think so?

To a certain extent... but that is making things too easy.Btw, what do you mean by "style" here. Style from a techincal point of view, in which case there are many different styles within the Aikikai, or style meaning organisation?

maikerus 05-12-2006 08:33 PM

Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido
 
Quote:

Maumote Chami wrote:
How do I politically correctly put it to him that althought they're diff. schools of style but at the end it's a 1 Aikido with the same principles w/ diff. flavors??

One interesting thing I've noticed when training with different teachers within the same style and training in different styles is that if you can look at what is the *same* as opposed to what is different then that leads to a greater understanding of what "Aikido" is (at least for me).

My advice would be to suggest that he look at the Aikido's being shown in different styles and focus on the similarties.

Hard to do because some things are really different...but the essence and the priniciples are the same.

Weirdest thing was working with an Aikikai person and discussing our different perceptions on techniques. Many times we used the same principle to describe why we were doing something, but the application of that principle was completely different.

--Michael

Eugene Leslie 01-05-2010 07:26 PM

Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido
 
Very informative thread!
I'm an Aikido beginner. Forgive any terminology faux-pas I may make in this post, and please correct my terminology so I may improve.

I was referred to this thread by Amir Krause whom I thank for such.
I had asked about the different "styles". I'm now better informed of the fact that there are really no "styles" but evolutions and offshoots.

Quote:

Lynn Seiser wrote: (Post 140806)
While I tend to see 1 Aikido from Osensei being taught with different emphasis by different organizations, I find it a waste of time and energy to attempt to talk someone out of their politics. Its just another form of competition. Let people believe what they want from their own training, education, and experience. Its not right/wrong, good/bad, its just different and thats okay. Not everyone has to agree with me.

As harmonious Aikidoka, is this not how one should approach the issue? I agree.

Jorge Garcia spoke of jurisdiction and authority; that's so true in today's internet information overload age and the motives of less-than-stellar-characters and dojos. It helps me make sense of this world of "fast-food" type TKD franchises and pay for rank testing MAs regardess of real skill.

Quote:

Mark Freeman wrote: (Post 140716)
the quality of your teacher and his/her teaching is far more important than the name of the organisation or the 'validity' that is given or not by a 'governing body'.
I have no negative thoughts regarding any other aikido 'group' as long as they uphold the spirit of O'Sensei's teaching.

Again. Thank-you for the insight. I Agree.
The spirit of Osensei's teachings are very important to me and what drew me to Aikido.
On the other hand, the fact that an instructor is affiliated with an accredited organization with a traceable pedigree gives a new, green practitioner like myself confidence in an art as deep (I don't pretend to know how deep) as Aikido which at first appears "soft" and unpracticle. But the examples of men such as on this site are inspiring; inner development.
I have taken other MAs in my quest and lack of spiritual content and rivalries between dojo's really turned me off.
Which brings about another newfound insight, thanks to these posts, into the competitiveness within Aikido circles which this thread respectfully digressed into.
It's a two edged sword to be sure because of the origins of Aikido in Budo and the martial spirit; It was born in the fire of competition and war; but perhaps Osensei (and the samurai who died over the centuries to perfect it all) did the competing for us and the world truly is evolving toward peace and the harnessing of aggression and ourselves. If Osensei said no competition in Aikido then I'll go with that and it makes perfect sense when one considers his vision. My experience with MAs competitions has been that it was a game of tag and it was the rules that one was actually competing against.

Quote:

Jorge Garcia wrote: (Post 140707)
I think almost everyone I have met at one time or another has had an attitude like that. It is human nature to believe we are attached to the best and to look a little down on our neighbor thus lifting ourselves up. It has to do with a desire to build our self identity.
It's a disease of the fallen soul and a part of even the best of us. The most we can do is to catch ourselves when we do it and to try and be as charitable as possible. A Sensei once told me that he was strictly taught by his Shihan never to criticize other instructors but when his Shihan was drunk, all he did was to criticize other instructors. Thankfully, when he was sober, he never did but deep in there, the criticism lived. The alcohol weakened his resolve not to criticize so it was revealed at those times. In a way, it is admirable that he would hold it back but revealing to know that it was still there.

That's great stuff, thanks. Makes me ponder "sincerity" which I think Aiki practioners have moreso than other MAs.
It also makes me meditate on the "dropping of ego" and "cleaning house spiritually" as eastern cultures are wont to do as opposed to the popular western view of ego being the main ingredient to success.
There are advantages to "I'm the best because I belong to......." and that's when it comes to team competition and war...it's a case of belonging to the best squad of the best platoon of the best company, etc. Gung-ho confidence. Food for thought for myself. When is pride o.k.? Hmmmm.

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."

Jorge Garcia's signature....great stuff but I've been told otherwise by others on this site. Namely that I should concentrate on the simple techniques and the concepts will come later..I guess there's a case for both but I personally sifted through other MAs and eventually found Aikido because of the philosophy behind it.

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)

Just Great! Now I'm compelled to learn about St. Bonaventure because this quote is just awesome. ;)


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