Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"
OK, so we agree... you don't need to be "spiraling" to allow the force of the ground through you. The force of the ground is, for all practical purposes, a linear force; to suggest otherwise is to misunderstand physics.
2 cents. Mike Sigman |
Re: more basis for conceptual integration of linear and spiral?
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This model and idea that force leaves the body and supports a brick through a linear line, through space is a fallacy and doesn't work.
If that idea had merit then: 1. Take your hand off the brick and have your linear force hold it up...see how that works for ya. 2. Make the brick, a car and hold it....see how that works out for ya. 3. Hold up your sword and walk away This idea is mistaking a basic training model (like Tohei and DR shows) with more advanced aspects of conditioning that need to be developed and that produce greater softness and control AND the actual effect in the demonstration. This teaching will limit real understanding; like the very real effect that kokyu has on the body and how it affects the system in actual use and how that affects someone holding you. It will leave people shoulder reliant and confused why they are not progressing. What removes load, manipulates load, creates aiki and has some sophisticated controls of an opponents forces and his reaction to your reactions is where the real work begins. This...isn't it. FWIW, only thinking linear internally will be reflected externally. One of the common criticisms of MAers who think and move this way is how easy they are to get around. Dan |
Re: more basis for conceptual integration of linear and spiral?
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Regards, Mike Sigman |
Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"
The point in clarifying that the "support of the ground" is a linear force and can be conveyed through the body without worrying very much about what sorts of stresses are in the body is that "grounding" a push, pushing with basic jin, and so on is actually fairly simple. Yet, I've been running into a number of people who are missing the fairly simple skill because they've been worrying about "dual opposing spirals". Let me deal with the topic of "dual opposing spirals" for a a bit (Jonathan... call me on any errors of logic, etc., please). After that I'll segue into a couple of other things in an attempt to cut through the mumbo-jumbo.
In the Qi paradigm, the focus is on how the body works. There is no one way for Japan and another way for China and a different way for the Ookum-Bookum Koryu. Qi is about how the body works and how strength is conveyed (thus health and other things follow and interplay). The body tends to wind in two different ways. This is an old very basic concept about how the qi of the body works. If nothing else, just twist to the right and then twist to the left and pay attention to your legs like they're cylinders. Notice how one leg twists one way (say, "outward") and the other twists the other way ("inward") in a turn of a given direction. If you track the twisting of the whole body as a connected unit you'll notice the universality of the two directions of twist. It's so universal that it's mentioned in the Chinese classics from thousands of years ago. They draw diagrams like this: This is the magical "dual opposing spirals", but it's really nothing more than a description of how tensions move across the body fascia in relation to way a human body moves. Notice that the lines don't 'crossover' into an "X". If you twist pretty far and with your arms somewhat outstretched you'll notice that tension builds up torsionally as the surface of the body is stretched. You could learn to cause that same stretch without all the twisting... but that's still not what the "qi" refers to. However, the general idea is there and is fairly easy to grasp. You can actually set up contradictory tensions all over the place, but if they're not contradictions of the "qi", you're talking about something quite different. Regardless of any tensions you set up, right or wrong, within the body, the body will still act as a structure (once you train) that will convey the solidity of the ground through it. Hence, it's correct to just "relax" and let the structure convey the solidity of the ground. Worries about "dual opposing spirals" can come later in training because if a person doesn't have simple jin skills, the worries about other things like spirals is simply a waste of time. Learn the alphabet before trying write an essay. 2 cents. Mike Sigman |
Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"
Wow, I actually thought from what I've heard that you guys would actually agree more regarding the basics. I thought the differences were further along, in things like application, emphasis, etc.
I think it's great that you are both putting it out there, and people can see that you disagree and just read and process. From the point of view of a beginner-- I wish the two of you had met long ago so that you could know first-hand what you are referring to. I think you are both being honest and cautioning against different incompetences that you have seen-- but I don't think the written word is actually communicating the physical feelings that you are referring to. Instead the written word may be exaggerating your differences in mental framework. |
Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"
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When I get some time tomorrow, I'll lay out another aspect to build onto the two I've covered. There's a critical difference about some of these things that comes out in the wash when another aspect of the body is developed: my point being that there is one irrefutable logic that ties all these things together and that's part of the beauty of the whole qi/ki paradigm. We're not talking about "different viewpoints" when it comes to the support of the ground being linear or the well-known turning aspects of the body. That's physics and tradition, not "perspective". FWIW Mike Sigman |
Re: more basis for conceptual integration of linear and spiral?
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So to obtain a straight force from dantian to hand, you cannot escape dealing with the chain of hinges that connects them. No matter whether you put most of the load in one hinge (typically the shoulder), spread it out evenly over each hinge or engage the fascia spanning all hinges, in all cases the resultant force will be a straight vector from dantian to hand. That's not what makes it internal. HOW you transfer the force through that chain of hinges, and by which mechanism you keep the hinges from collapsing under the load, that's what matters. Another thing about hinges: their movement is circular. There's no such thing as a straight line force effector within the human body (though pressurizing the abdomen comes close): it's all circles. This does not mean that it's impossible to get a straight line force: just balance two counteracting hinges. And this is where spirals become interesting: a spiral is the superposition of a (curvi-)linear movement, and a circular movement around it. Now, how do you get linear movement from spiral? Add two of them with opposite directions: the circles cancel out and the linear force remains. Since spiral tensions seem to be a natural consequence of using the fascia in movement, and two spirals can create a linear force, focusing upon the spirals may not be such a bad idea. OTOH, there is the school of thought which professes that knowing too much in detail is detrimental for training physical attributes. In that regard, it may be better to try and achieve a linear jin by simply willing it (yi): once you have that, you have the two opposing spirals anyway, since they are what the linear force is physically composed of. Which is what "let the body do the rest" means, I guess. It has a certain elegance, though IMO it's way to vulnerable to self-delusion. I prefer knowing what's going on, though that approach has it's own weaknesses. |
Re: more basis for conceptual integration of linear and spiral?
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That's in agreement with what I said. Quote:
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Regards, Mike Sigman P.S. BTW.... why don't you clarify for people your relationship to me over the years? |
Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"
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I run into people who have been training internals for years focusing on ground paths and vectors who are missing the real skills they should be training and they can't do anything. Quote:
It is interesting that you deny the need or use of spiral energy (which is just as well as you simply don't understand what it is), then advocate it as past the basics -writing an essay over learning the alphabet. Movement issues Isn't it funny I have been run into a whole bunch of people who have trained and have been worrying about vector paths who can't do anything meaningful. This idea that the body will take care of itself once you set up a linear path is the reason I see shoulder issues, scapulars sticking out, hips rocking back, and feet rocking. Point of fact is that so many who are doing these things are not settled and relaxed in the proper way, and their bodies disconnect under load. They remain stiff and when they try to demonstrate fluidity under load it is a weird display; demonstrating obvious sticky points in movement along a line. Why? Because their bodies "just relaxing" are in fact...a mess and will remain a mess throughout their careers. I strongly advocate people get out and train with all of these internet pundits. How they move, how they feel and how they look with a weapon in their hand and how they pole shake, is their statement. Not what they write. What their methods and opiions have done to themselves...is what they are about to do to you, so choose wisely. Dan |
Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"
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Regards, Mike Sigman |
Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"
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How many people know I am the only one who has been strongly advocating spiral energy and talking about duel spirals here? How many know what this really is? Your entire opener, the other thread that Jun blew up that was an outright personal attack... are all ill-disguised attempts for you shoot down what I do. You have this obsession and competition thing going on. As for your argument here You have no support for your assertions other than your opinion and your skill..That leaves you gaping holes in your constant harassing of me. a. You have never adequately defined spiraling; either in what I do or in taiji theory. b. Your videos and public teaching have demonstrated no competence in doing what I do. What possible motive do I have in debating someone who doesn't know the subject and can't do what I do and is obsessed with shooting it down? I'd rather wish you well in your own search and be done with it. My continued recommendation is for people to go train with others and see what they can do. There are good players out there with theories of their own. Many of whom think you and I are full of B.S. Fine by me. I have no interest or need to compete with you or anyone else. My understanding is in my own hands to be judged and I am actually helping people and making a difference. Dan |
Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"
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[snip personal remarks by Dan] Mike Sigman |
It's the same old story
OKAY FOLKS!
LET'S REVIEW: 1) Mike Sigman begins another thread that is DIRECTLY related to his disagreement with Dan Harden, while at the same time, wanting to somehow keep it "not personal". 2) Dan weighs in on post #27. He does not directly reference Mike, but the MERE PRESENCE of a response from him is like a nice piece of magnesium. 3) Mike responds on post #28 with slight, back-handed, personal attack at Dan. Ah, Water and Magnesium meet...... 4) Mike recovers and post #29 is all about his beliefs, along with supporting documentation. 5) Jonathan tries to reinforce the neutral response zone nature of posts between the two of them in post #30. 6) Mike responds in post #31 to Jonathan and almost makes it to the end, and then falters in trying to re-assert that his position is not a perspective but "fact". 7) Alex jumps in with post#32 and provides a counter argument based upon non-personal information. 8) Mike begins to violate his own attempt at not letting things get personal with his response to Alex (post #33). 9) Dan directly calls Mike to task in post#34 about how Mike is using this thread to once again try and prove himself right while proving Mike wrong. 10) The familiar back and forth between Mike and Dan now place this thread in the basket with all others when ANY reference from either of them have to do with the other person. This is Marv Albert signing off. Damn, I need to take that skirt off. Is there any woman nearby that I can bite.........:D :D :D :D . SERIOUSLY FOLKS: This is why I suggested some ground rules in which Dan and Mike agree to NOT reference the other person in any manner, shape or form. I frankly cannot understand why Jun does not make this standard operating procedure..... Marc Abrams |
Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"
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1. You telling me what my ideas are would require your understanding of them and expertise or at least competence in their use. I have seen you move. 2. I never used the term silk reeling, I was told I was silk reeling by two "real" experts and a host of lower level teachers. I still don't use silk reeling as a term. I never used the term, kua or mingmen either. I had a master class Taiji teacher with his hands all over me use those terms. 3. I have adopted some terms, not others, and adopted some good training drills from three teachers of ICMA....and? 4, FWIW, winding is not spiraling. You shouldn't confuse the two. And once again You're putting words in my mouth doesn't make a case. "My idea of using the natural spirals of the body somehow cause people not to be movable in the jin sense".... is not what I say or do. That's your misguided ideas and statement. You're missing some fairly important things. Terminology You should consider that there are people using their bodies congruent with the Chinese arts who never knew the Chinese terms...or not, whatever fits your agenda. I'm out. I said what I wanted to say. Many of us have seen and met people who followed your methods and what happened to them. Same for me, Ark, Sam Chin etc. It's all known. We'll revisit it in years to come with all of us and all of them who do the work and those who kid themselves. I tend to separate out people who do the real work with master debaters. See ya Dan |
Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"
Yeah Marc.
I think what's happening here is that Mike wants to have a "purist's" conversation about what the "internal" is, whereas Dan is saying that all that crap won't help anybody in a fight. Agree that they should not post in the same threads. Heh. |
Re: It's the same old story
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Within other threads Mike consistently starts attacks and swipes at me and anyone who trains with me (lap dogs, cults, experts now, etc.) The real question is......why is this allowed here? Find me where I do the same? I remain defensive. Frankly, I am sick and tired of being considered the same. Lorel If you think Mike is offering the one pure and correct view of internal you are in for some big surprises later? And all I am talking about is fighting and not internal? God speed. I wish you luck with that. Don't worry about this thread See ya Dan |
Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"
I am unsure why Mike is allowed to get away with direct personal insults (calling me a lap dog) either.
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"
Well, Dan and his followers just ruined another thread by piling on. I'll start another to pick up where I left off on the discussion of jin and spiralling.
Every factual thing I've said in the thread can be supported by both physics and by comments from actual masters in internal martial arts. Grounding, pushing, etc., are as I described them and has been acknowledged by different experts, including comments about what some of the students who've been to workshops are doing (one of these comments to a woman in Germany by one of the Four Tigers of Chen Village). So none of this can be shoved off as just my opinion. Mike Sigman |
Re: more basis for conceptual integration of linear and spiral?
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Re: It's the same old story
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What I got was that some of the stuff that "internal guys" do is tactically unsound. I forgot to add that you are trying to tell Mike that you are doing someting he is not aware of...and that because he is trying to have a discussion about the internal in his own parameters (which he, as you mention, does not define), you cannot have a word in about what the "dual spirals" are. Thats why I agree with Marc that both of you should just ignore each other. |
Re: more basis for conceptual integration of linear and spiral?
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Regarding spirals, I'm sure you're capable of finding spirals in human movement (after all, you've mentioned them yourself), but they're not really relevant to the scope of my point. Quote:
My relationship to you? Why, I'm your arch-nemesis obviously, twirling my mustache while plotting your downfall in the shadows, jealously scheming to steal your 733+ skillz and cursing you each time you escape my evil machinations! You know, like everyone else you've ever encountered :D Oh, and by the way, if you're trying to be clever about internet nicknames, try and get the spelling right... |
Re: more basis for conceptual integration of linear and spiral?
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If we got into dynamics of the dantien, then I'd note that the dantien is much more than just a point on the line, but we weren't discussing dynamics. Quote:
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Mike Sigman |
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