The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

In the history of Japanese martial arts there has always been a cultural view of mind and body which puts into perspective the western view of that being 'new'.

So when Tohei presented mind and body co-ordination it was only new really to those outside of Japan. So that's an intro for you.

Then we come to the concept of Hara. Once again always been there in Japanese Martial Arts and was considered where you keep your Ki or spiritual centre.

Now this could be called whatever other name you like form china or wherever, dantien etc. The medical ways of Japan dealt with energy paths and no doubt originated way back in china and acupuncture so also included energy balancing and thus the concepts of yin and yang.

I say all this to give you a picture of Japanese and what was common to Japanese and held by them as normal Japanese ways.

So now to tell you about the second body mind concept of equal importance and significance to the Japanese. Once again very normal and cultural and widely known throughout their history. This second mind body concept was common knowledge. I say this also so that when you consider O'Sensei and Aikido it would be obvious to the Japanese what was expected of them yet to westerners they would need to be told. Thus I feel this second concept has been missed by most westerners.

The second concept is Koshi. The second centre. So for Japanese they were used to using two centres so to speak.

Luckily for those who did Toheis Aikido where they developed weight underside they were in fact learning about Koshi.

Koshi is the back of the hips, translating as the lumbar pelvic centre. Just near the base of the spine.

This in Martial Arts goes back to the origins of all Japanese martial arts. The Hara was the spirit centre and Koshi was the pivot from where you moved. Keep ki in your centre and move from koshi is standard procedure.

Thus the centre of so called 'ground force' in Aikido terms or Japanese is Koshi.

Now I'll leave you with my own personal advice. Connect to heaven with Hara and earth with Koshi.

Hope some find this interesting.

Regards.G.

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

Sounds like what the Chinese call ming men.

Would you care to elaborate on that? How is weight underside connected to Koshi?

Is that the same 'ground force' as Mike Sigman's ground path?

How can I tell if I do that correctly?

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

Graham,

I didn't find koshi defined the way you do in the literature I consulted. Did you receive that teaching from someone else or did you create that definition ?

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

Graham,

The basic set of definitions in Nelsons (admittedly, not a specialized dictionary for Chinese medical usages) has the following:

Nelson 3799: koshi hips, loins, waist, pelvic region; small of the back; haunch; lower-panel wainscoating (lower wall only)

Afterwards come the compounds. So, a couple of questions:

First, do you have a citation in which it is quite clear that Tohei (or any other Japanese martial artist) is using koshi in a way that refers specifically to "small of the back" and not the entire region, which includes "hara?"

Second, while all these points or regions play a role in direction and alignment, how could a ground force "originate" or be "centered" someplace other than the ground? Wouldn't that make it some other kind of force if it were?

Best,

FL

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

Hi Joep.
Ming men? I asked Mike if this was so and he said no. However, not that I'm too interested in what the Chinese call it or if their view on it is the same, but I believe they call it 'yao'

Weight underside: When practising weight underside, admittedly until you get good at it, you are practising relaxing the body, letting Ki flow through the body, learning about centre etc. but at the same time becoming more and more aware of gravity as if you are actually harmonizing with gravity.

Eventually you feel the difference between this harmonizing with gravity and centre. You feel and know the difference.

Now actually I'll tell you what happens. You feel what seems like a door opening at Koshi. Where most if they check it will find the base of their back tightens this is the complete opposite. Instead of tightening like a door closing, it opens and you feel Koshi. Now you realize that when you lose weight underside it is Koshi that is not open or relaxed. Get Koshi back and weight underside returns.

Now when you are used to and using Koshi all the time you find weight underside is there all the time and no longer a consideration.

As to wether that's the same ground force as Mike or whoever I don't really care to be honest.

To tell if you're using it properly is obviously a matter of practice and thus seeing the difference of when you are and when you are not using it.

Rather than go on about what it does etc. I'll just give you an exercise to do so that you can feel the difference.

Try doing funakogiundo with a partner pinning your wrists to your side. Try it with force. Try it with centre. Try it with Koshi. See the differences. Of course I am assuming you are familiar with these exercises and the nuances of them . Good luck.

Regards.G.

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

Ludwig.
First about me. Yes I was taught weight underside and Koshi many years ago as standard procedure. Since coming to Aikiweb and assuming everyone knew about it I find that not many do apparently.

I wasn't taught by academics and looking it up and finding it's history and debating the pro's and cons etc. so when I see others debating things or I know something then I know that if I now search I will find some reference somewhere to it. So my research is more to do with validating what I already know and do. So yes it is my definition but I can find and give references to it from sources on the net. I found a great one recently.

I'll look it up again and post it.

Regards.G.

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

Hi Fred.
Citation? As in my response above I'll look one up for you and post it.

Secondly if you read my response earlier you will see my explanation. How can ground force be 'centred' someplace other than the ground? Well that's for you to discover. The practice and use of Koshi answers that.

Yes it is another kind of force and that's the whole point. For me put in simple terms it is the Earth energy, Ki. Ground force is not and never has been my terminology. Thus I have no use for it or need for such terminology.

Regards.G.

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

Can't seem to copy and paste an article.

However you can look it up on google by typing in the following:

Koshi Balancing-a method.

Regards.G.

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

Granted my own background is different but my late teacher was in Tohei Sensei's lineage pre-split and for a while after; she trained with him quite a bit in Calif and Hawaii and her own teaching was based on that. I never heard her reference "koshi" in discussing four principles, power or movement.

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

Graham,

I've had several teachers who were well-versed in Tohei's methods and had direct experience with him as students, each of whom continued to use his four principles, his teachings on ki, his methods of ki breathing, and so forth, even after the great split, when they no longer had any formal affiliation with him. Subsequently, in my own training, I've investigated those methods in some depth over a number of years to good effect. Don't get me wrong, it can be great stuff.

I've also done some study of the Japanese view of mind and body, and its transmission to the west -- though my scholarship and my practical application are woefully lacking when I compare my efforts with others of real accomplishment. I think it is fair to say that Tohei was the first person to transmit these teachings to the west in the language of Dale Carnegie's "How to Make Friends and Influence People," (which was apparently one of Tohei Sensei's favorite English-language books). But the distinctive differences between the Cartesian dualism of body and mind and the pan-Asian (it's really not just Japanese, you see) view of the interdependence of body and mind were addressed in both terms of both mental understanding and physical practices by a great many people before Tohei, some Japanese, some Chinese, some Indian, and even some in the West.

In your original post, you state quite unequivocally: "Thus the centre of so called 'ground force' in Aikido terms or Japanese is Koshi.

In this post, you state quite unequivocally: "Ground force is not and never has been my terminology. Thus I have no use for it or need for such terminology."

Mike Sigman has remarked a number of times over the years on the phenomenon of folks who say "yes, we have that," or "yes, we do that."

Well, I could say "Yes, before I encountered Mike, I was doing that all along."

To go back to one of the electrical examples he likes so much, my statement that "I was doing that all along," would have been entirely accurate if I meant that "Before I met a guy who knew how to put together a radio receiver, I was once reading largely theoretical works about radio waves and circuit design and getting some general grasp while he was listening to Vivaldi on the radio receiver he built from scratch."

I'm not disputing the importance of the hara, or koshi, or any one of a number of points you make. I'm also not claiming any major achievement in my ability to manifest "ground force." But I am claiming some small familiarity with aikido in general, the force generated by senior practitioners, and the methods used to train that force on the one hand, and on the other hand, with the kind of force Mike can generate, and the basic methods he uses to give folks the proverbial "foot in the door." I have met senior aikido practitioners who can generate tremendous force. But the precision of training method is something else entirely.

If "ground force" isn't part of your terminology, how can you know that you are generating it? If you can't know that you are generating it, how can you assert that it is the same as what you think you know? And if you have no need of it, but it's the same as what you have, aren't you saying that you don't need what you do have?

In short, it's difficult to make heads or tails out of what you're claiming here, and I don't think the confusion is all mine.

Best,

FL

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

Hi Fred.
This is not about Mike or anyone else so please don't let's go there. Let's stick to Koshi.

My mentioning of him in purely in response to the questioner asking about what he said or asking me to compare.

Knowing what koshi is and it's relationship to gravity and Earth Ki I thus was interested in what all this ground force talk was about.

On discovering the descriptions of it I thus see where I have come across it or similar in the past. Thus I see some similarities and some differences. That seems simple enough to me. What's the confusion?

Read the article I pointed out. Note that it's common knowledge. Note that seiza is the act of sitting in or with Koshi. Note that while one (hara) was taken up by the west the other(koshi) was not. Note these are all to do with Japanese ways including and especially applicable to the understanding of Japanese Martial arts.

Study first, understand, then compare and contrast rather than just defend one view in order to put down another.

Thus I understand to a degree what ground force terminology is referring to. I have met people in the past who use such internal things and that's not to say it's exactly the same as what's talked about here but chances are it was from that ballpark.

Now, unlike you I have had no need to try to do what they were doing for what I was doing was unaffected by it. In fact the comments given to me were always to the affect of ahhh, you know.

Well the funny thing is I do know what I know and only felt and harmonized and dealt with what they know. I have never had a reason to learn what they knew and always viewed it as their way. No more, no less. In my experience they went away knowing that I did Aikido and were impressed and hopefully learned something.

So for clarification the similarity is this: Koshi harmonizes and utilizes energy from below, from the ground, gravity, and I won't go into the spiritual aspects of it as everyone seems to complain they don't get it. So surely you can see A similarity there but that's all. The descriptions I have seen of ground force and the ip terminology tell me it's not exactly the same.

However if you read what I said in the previous post I believe, according to that article, that the Chinese called it yao.

Now even if they did no doubt they would have their take on it whilst the Japanese would have theirs.

Early Sumo was based on this too.

Regards G.

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

That's perfectly understandable to me Janet. The west was interested in hara and not Koshi.

As I said it was of no significance to the Japanese for they were brought up knowing it. What someone like Tohei would see and note is the emphasis those from the west put on upper body and force thus the principles are to let go of all that and learn centre and relaxation.

One point leads to the stillness of mind.

Relaxing, weight underside leads to the understanding of Koshi.

Extending Ki leads to the understanding and use of Hara or centre.

I must say that I too never heard Tohei emphasize Koshi as such but did explain such things as dropping centre. When you see him do such things and watch carefully you will see it's not from the front so to speak but from Koshi. The west tend to put all this down to a low centre of gravity and look no further.

Regards.G.

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

Graham,

Inasmuch as it was you who asserted that koshi and ground-path are the same, the reason for referencing Mike Sigman is his long-standing use of the term "ground-path" and the effort he's put into making clear what he means by that, both in words and in introductory seminars.

Thus, I was interested in your explanation of the relationship between the two. However, with each question I ask, you move on to another series of assertions which you base on what you feel, simultaneously dismissing the need for any experience (or empirical examination) of the thing with which you have no experience but "feel" to be the same as what you feel you understand.

Sorry to have troubled you.

Cheers.

FL

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

Oh dear. Is my English not clear enough for you?

I did not assert they were the same. Did I not point out A similarity?

Did I not say that's where it ends?

Did I not explain my interest in what ground path meant and thus explain the differences I found?

Can you read?

I'm not troubled by your enquiry. I give you references to read so that you can see the difference. None of this vaguely equals an assertion of the same.

I don't feel it is the same at all. I'm actually quite happy that it's not.

Maybe you are the one that is troubled by this view.

Regards.G.

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

It is quite clear. Positively radiant. Do enjoy your practice! :straightf

FL

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

But Tohei Sensei was a very clear, plain-speaking teacher. If he meant "koshi" he would have said "koshi."
I will grant you that by "centre" (as in "drop one's center") he probably did not mean the same thing as "one point" (as in "keep mind at one point") or he wouldn't have used a different word.
I can't think of anything in Tohei's teaching to suggest it is the sacrum/sacroliliac area.
In my own practice, I experience the "centre" as being that entire area between the diaphragm and pubis, encompassing front and back, a large globe if you will, resting on the hips, with the one point within it.
I still don't get the "koshi" thing outside of your system but that's ok - I think we have each clarified our language and usage and may have to agree to respectfully disagree.

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

Hi Janet.
I agree with what you say.

I can only point out not only what I learned but how I learned it and the explanations given.

As you are probably aware I was taught with emphasis on the Tohei principles and my teacher was English. However he taught us within that framework Koshi.

Now on researching it I find it is not only well known in Japan but traces back to the origins of all Japanese martial arts.

I find this quite amusing as I have often pointed out to people how it makes early Judo and Sumo make sense.

I do remember early on my own teacher wondering why we wern't duplicating what he wanted us to do and then him realizing we had a different view on what using the hips meant. Thus our introduction to Koshi.

Anyway. Hopefully it's interesting at least and for some it may explain a few anomalies they have come across.

To clarify what I teach for others I would say that koshi is the centre of relaxing energy and hara is the centre of vibrant energy.

It would be interesting to know if or how often Tohei mentioned hips.

Regards.G.

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

@ graham christian: It is like a baby swimming in a sea of sharks.

Dude, you have no idea do you?

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

Hey, do you feel sorry for the baby or the sharks? I like sharks, they're funny.

Regards.G.

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

Years ago I was sitting in a restaurant with some friends. In the next booth some people were discussing proper Formula One Racing driving methods. These guys knew everything! Proper shifting methods, how to take a turn most efficiently, etc. Unfortunately they were all 14-year-old boys. No drivers licenses yet let alone any likely experience behind the wheel of a half million dollar race car.

Now I'm perfectly willing to accept that the kid's might be right in some respects in terms of their knowledge gleaned from various sources. But they probably should hesitate to argue with people who've actually driven an F1... And there is a very deep question about how much they could truly to be said to understand the topic without having ever been behind the wheel.

IMHO you do that a lot, Graham. As a matter of fact I would say you just did that in a rather profound way.

And I'm trying to do that less. So on that note... Toodles.

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

Keith.
A touch of the same ol same ol? I think those kids knew quite a bit about formula 1 by your description.

I'm a formula 1 driver by that analogy, maybe formula 2, so what's your point? Are you one of those kids?

What's your view on Koshi by the way?

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

Yes, in a certain shallow, superficial, and totally naive fashion they did. And they also had a great deal of confidence in their views as well as the profundity of what they were saying.

But if they had any brains at all they should keep their mouths shut and ears (mind) open when speaking with those who have actually driven the cars, neh? You just never know whether you're speaking to someone who might actually have direct, personal experience with the very things you've never seen or done. Such speculation often ends up sounding like a bunch of 14-year-old speaking out of their hind regions. Which is sometimes rather endearing in an enthusiastic 14-year-old. Not so much in a grown man who you'd think would know better.

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

Sounds like you talking about yourself. Now, back to Koshi.

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

It must be nice to be you. Enjoy your happy place.

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

Indeed!
Aikido is fun.

Regards.G.

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

Graham doesn't need any help but I would just like to point out that he started the thread - he gets to decide what he's talking about. Trying to move the discussion to internal stuff and to someone who doesn't even do aikido was disingenuous and just a distraction. This is in the spiritual forum - if you want to talk about internal stuff please do it in the non-aikido martial traditions forum.

Graham didn't say anything revolutionary - koshi is a normal concept in martial arts. Maybe there are some differences in definition but it's a pity that the interesting suggestion he made that you connect to earth with koshi and heaven with hara is getting lost.

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

I agree it is interesting, which is why I am engaging in this thread!

I keep wishing that he could cite a reference other than his own experience. Is this a reflection of how ki moves up and down in the body during certain breathing meditations? Does anybody from Ki Society background know if this was ever explicitly discussed, taught or shown by Tohei Sensei?

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

Hi Janet.
Niall quite right in pointing out the gist of the thread. For those who find it interesting I have cited a reference they can look up in order to understand what Koshi is and some history of it and indeed how it is used generally within the martial arts. ie: as the pivot and power base and the place from which you move.

As to Tohei? I'd like to know too.

I have taught this for more than ten years and so have a good understanding of what I mean and I'm sure you'll understand that when teaching I don't give references but demonstrate and give exercises for people to do and learn and apply.

Thus I can see when someone is using good Koshi and when they are not. I recall someone pointing out a Shihan who used to say Aikido could be done on one mat. This teacher it is said used to draw shapes, as i recall for instance the letter D and basically the uke would splatt straight down and indeed wouldn't want to feel that again. To me this was an example of the Ki of Koshi or rather both being used, hara and koshi.

So I'm afraid I can only give you what I know and use and any citations which align with it.

As far as Ki and Ki flow through the body during breathing meditations? Well that's a bit of a subject in it'self.

Once again I can only give you my experience gained through solid practice over many years without referring to any references.

Through Ki breathing or meditation you do become aware of filling the body with Ki and also aware of Ki flowing through the body. The breathing analogy is just that to me, an analogy. You may start with physical breathing but in the ned it is the natural flow in and out from centre of Ki.

So from that perspective your question of up and down the body doesn't make sense for it is like saying does air move up and down the lungs.

However from another perspective in my opinion and experience it does.

I can only explain this however in terms of Koshi and Kokyu and maybe add on to that centerline.

Kokyu being universal heavenly Ki and Koshi being infinite earth Ki. Heaven and earth.

Now the connecting line being centreline and the gathering place for the heaven Ki being Hara.

Now you can direct your Ki to go up or down or sideways or circularly through the body if you wish but the best way in my opinion is in and out. So now to explain the difference between Kokyu Ki and Koshi Ki in laymans terms and operational effect.

Kokyu Ki enlivens, invigorates, energises, gives life to. Koshi Ki relaxes, receives, allows, settles.

So it is like the great universal space of love and the infinite void.

Thus more to do with Aikido exercises and waza than with breathing for Koshi can receive any and all force and negativity whilst Ki from hara (collected from kokyu) then takes it's place.

When you sit in seiza and relax the body you will then feel the tension and force in the body go straight down centre line through Koshi to earth. Then via hara you may refill your body with heaven Ki and feel refreshed and replenish it all with Ki breathing.

So there you are. I bet that's quite new for you to hear put in that way. Hopefully you find it interesting or even useful but alas no citations.

Regards.G.

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

Thank you, Graham
New? not really. A mix of things pulled from various places, with your own spin and experience and use of language which is I imagine the basis of how you teach in your dojo - which is fine.

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

Hi Janet.
Not sure what you mean by 'pulled from various sources' or indeed 'spin' . Anyway, glad you enjoyed it.

Regards.G.

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

.... uh, what Fred, Janet, and Keith said... in spades, three times.

best regards,

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

Mr. Matthews, it isn't that I object to him talking about it. What I do object to is his refusal to address the points brought up by Mr. Little.

Furthermore, when one takes liberty with the meaning of words, especially with the added layer of complexity involved in translation, there is really nothing left to discuss. Graham's approach dramatically limits the possibility of rational discourse. What I see is self-serving definitions created to change the common meanings of words to support a point a view. And Mr. Little was pointing out a series of objections, none of which were addressed. It has little to do with "internal strength" discussions directly, but more about how he has redefined a number of concepts to make them fit more cleanly in to a conceptual framework he apparently already holds and to claim "I'm already doing this stuff I've never seen or experienced because I can redefine words to make it sound like it."

When I read Graham's posts here in this thread I'm reminded of a famous quote.

Back in the old college days in logic we used to call this the shifting grounds problem. Another one to reference is a so-called "definitional retreat". These modes of argument make rational discourse impossible.

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

Never heard it discussed in the way Graham has. We talked all the time about focusing on one-point. Also many would make a clear distinction between one point and koshi. The one-point would be center. One does "settle down" (our way of discussing it -- conventional was "weight underside"). Those imply a sinking down. But the whole idea of "ground path" as espoused by others (which was the implication of Graham's post) is actually a heck of a lot more subtle and nuanced. So in essence saying "this isn't part of my vocabulary because I'm already doing it" is really just definitional sleight of hand. Unfortunately all the nuance gets lost when one waves that wand. I've been guilty of it myself.

I still want to hear more about how Western Cartesian mind/body dualism contrasts with pan-Asian concepts. It would be an interesting discussion especially considering some of Wittgenstein's ideas about how we understand our world. Pervasive and insidious forces... That made my philosophy-trained ears perk right up. Love that stuff...

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

I quite agree at least in how my mind/body system experiences things. As it happens, last night a couple of us co-led class in absence of more senior folks on the mat. I was working w/ folks on how to notice/feel/use 4 principles at different stages in a technique, using our first basic (katatori ikkyo).

I illustrated "weight underside" with the feeling of relaxed heaviness that unbendable arm generates at the point in ikkyo where nage has uke turned and imbalanced but not yet going to the ground (if nage lets up on uke and uke starts to turn back and rise, that feeling of a relaxed "weight underside" is what lets nage keep uke down until nage decides to funekoki forward to fully break uke's balance).

I am just starting to play with ground path stuff but definitely experience that in my body differently from what I was doing last night.

I'm no philosopher, but as a sentient organism, dualism never made much sense to me. :D

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

Cartesian Dualism is pervasive and inescapable in western thought. It has also been a Pox on our thinking since the day Descartes overheated himself to come up with that winner... :D

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

Keith:

Heard a rumor that when Descartes overheated he allegedly said:
"I think too much, therefore I may be no longer be, therefore I certainly hope that god exists". :eek:

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

Ah, cogito ergo sum.

I've always preferred the other side of this coin -- I doubt I exist therefore I do. :) That's kinda fun.

And I should be fairer to Descartes -- he gets all the credit even thought the whole mind/body dualism thing could be tracked back to Plato (forms) and earlier. So it is a pervasive theme in western thinking. And then Descartes sure hammered the nails deeply in to the coffin.

Now... How does that compare with Pan-Asian views of mind and body? And how does this change how we view notions of "dualism" in mind/body distinctions? Is this something we think we understand in Japanese arts or are we wearing Bertrand Russell "rose tinted glasses" when we examine these things?

Anyway... All the stuff Graham wrote is kinda familiar for me coming directly from a Tohei line (Tohei -> Rod Kobayashi -> Seidokan). But at the same time it seems forced and skewed.

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

Keith:

I kind of look at the mind/body from a more existential philosophical perspective in that they are two ends of a spectrum that cannot be detached from or looked at separately from the other.

As to Graham.... I gave up a long time ago... "fuzzy logic" forced to fit within a post-hoc reasoning scheme at it's best/worst.... and then there are his videos......... Nuff Said!

Hope all is well.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

Keith,

The short answer is that Buddhism (Indian origins notwithstanding, I'll tag it "Pan-Asian") has a fundamental doctrine of dependent origination.

One of the more common examples given of this process is basic Boy Scout fire-starting-theory:

In order to start a fire, it is necessary to bring together fuel, oxygen, and heat.

In this view, consciousness in relation to the physical aggregates of the body is like fire in relation to fuel, oxygen, and heat -- something that seems to be distinct from those aggregates, yet remains dependent on and conditioned by those same aggregates.

Now things get interesting. In this view, once consciousness arises from those aggregates, the aggregates seem to also become dependent on and conditioned by the activity of mind, and that which has arisen and that from which it has arisen become mutually conditioning -- allowing for the possibility of changing the mind through changing the body or vice-versa, or (to pick up on Marc's usage) through varying combinations of the two along the spectrum from "pure body" to "pure mind" (neither of which actually exists in isolation from some measure of the other).

While this is a pretty orthodox Buddhist view, it has worked its way pretty thoroughly into the Asian cultural substrate, in the same way that the Cartesian (or if you prefer, Platonic) view has into ours.

Or something like that.

Hope this helps.

FL

Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.
 

isn't that "let go of my eggo", roughly translation, which involved sweet syrupy stuffs, with buttery stuffs, and on occasion fruit chutney stuffs although, that would be closer to the Frenchy stuffs which would related to Descartes who often ate the things right off the cart. :D