Re: Elbow Power
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Re: Elbow Power
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Re: Elbow Power
Lorei - that is not the traditional Japanese method. That is a modern adaptation for large groups - hence, progressive.
Demetrio - Quote:
And there was a LOT of put-up or shut-up in the Edo period. Here's something more accurate - and actually more interesting. Most Sengoku period ryu were closer to practical - none were probably military arts in their pure form. They utilized combative training to hone an officer class (the vast majority of fighters in the Sengoku period were peasants who got spears and practiced basic tactics in unison, much like any military. It is also probable that some of these early skills had rudiments of internal training, but the influx of information on that subject really occurred at the very end of the Sengoku period and early Edo. Then again, just because a ryu doesn't have something in this generation doesn't mean they didn't have it in a previous one (reference Kito-ryu in HIPS, for one example). As the Edo period progressed, YES, there were restrictions of all kinds. But more important to the development of the ryu, they PROGRESSIVELY reworked the older styles to adapt to the kind of combat they really had to be concerned about - duels. Therefore, the great schools of mid-Edo were primarily dueling skills. It was at this time that "a thousand flowers bloomed," - where sogo bujutsu, with a lot of weapons, fissioned in to ryu specializing in one or two. Interestingly, when this fissioning occurred, techniques became more sophisticated (for better and for worse), just like boxing technique took a leap, when they eliminated cross-buttock and other hip throws (which led to the development of the hook punch, which wasn't even considered earlier, as round-house punches were countered with throws. When this fissioning occurred, guess what - there was far more concentration on subtleties - among them Internal Training. It is very likely that IT went far back in time - for example, there is some evidence that the roots of what became Daito-ryu were already in the Kyo-hachi ryu which developed into Chujo ryu - Toda-ryu - Itto-ryu (hello - Daito-ryu). There are, according to one practitioner/scholar I consulted certain terms that are common to every ryu that emanated from the Kyo-hachi-ryu line (btw - their patron saint is Kiichi Hogen). Lorei, back to you. Traditional Japanese pedagogy is small groups or one-on-one, the higher levels taught either directly or in steal-this-technique fashion. But it worked for hundreds of years. Takeda Sokaku, fwiw, was a progressive innovator, who in many ways, broke the classical model of teaching. And finally, Akuzawa is, in many ways, VERY traditional in his approach - he's merely open about what went on behind close doors. Ellis Amdur |
Re: Elbow Power
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Great post and I can also count on you to school me and help me refine my definitions. I guess it comes down to whether "current" pedagogical models in Japanese budo are capable of change and whether it is a clearly defined pedagogy that articulates foundational skills/principals and that makes the transmission of knowledge more efficient. Secondly, I will leave up to those who are in koryu or who have practised in small groups the higher level skills and have experience training with Westerners who are a bit innovative in articulating training concepts to decide whether the steal-this-technique or other koryu teaching styles are better than the methods of some Westerners or not. Lorel p.s.--It's Lorel, not Lorei. :) |
Re: Elbow Power
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Speaking for myself I can tell you categorically your comments concerning lack of understanding of foundational principles and of aikido and the notion that somehow we/I am clueless is imo nonsense.My teacher is constantly evolving and expressing clearly the underlying principles behind aikido.Perhaps in your case you do not have the benefit of a teacher such as my own?As far as my getting picked apart by others as you put it, I dont think so. Cheers, Joe. |
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Bye. |
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Thank you for your kid regards .May I respond to you accordingly? Bye Bye, Joe. |
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Best, Chris |
Re: Elbow Power
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Confounding myself trying to figure out what's wrong I decided to restart gym work which I abandon upon advise of my Sensei and Silat teacher. Well two days on the elliptical and weights have resulted in diminished pain. Thus I agree that the exercise and loading of weights does strengthen the body. Now... Wouldn't it be a surprise that all the exercises you guys are doing in developing fascia, grounding etc... Really was as simple as making your body used to taking lateral loads rather then generic strength training. And that's all it takes for people to do amazing stuff with their bodies. Specialize muscular training and unified usage of those muscles. |
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Thanks Greg |
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You've got those "big" sexy muscles that you flex in the mirror every morning and then the ones that you don't really see that actually hold you together and do all the "little work" that we don't really think about, but are pretty important when it comes to keeping us upright and mobile. |
Re: Elbow Power
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Greg |
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Re: Elbow Power
Point made. Interesting take on things. What I would love to see would be a pure Aiki mentalist next to an IS specialist try things out with each other. One day maybe.
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No contest. IS, which is foundationally mental work.... wins hands down. I would love to meet the Aikido or Daito ryu Shihan (who doesn't cross train) capable of withstanding what someone versed in IS...and...using it freestyle, could bring to a mat. I don't think they would stand a chance. But that's okay, there are other, standards in play-such as preserving a tradition. Not everyone got the chance to go out and experiment, explore and create. The good news is that todays budo is so open and friendly compared to the past, that everyone can meet and train. Innovators can share and traditionalists can share and both can have fun learning. I think this might be one of the best times to do Budo. Dan |
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Greg |
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As for them meeting IS specialists, no they haven't but I wish they would. It's something that I'd really really hope will happen one day. Because I truly believe it'll be a great learning experience for everybody not a proving contest. Maybe when Dan pops by our corner of the world I could arrange some hand talking. Who knows right? Regardless I'd still attend your seminar if I ever got the chance. Just like I'll attend a Systema seminar anytime they come over here or when I'm abroad, or liq yi quan for that matter, and any Silat sessions especially maenpo'esque. I just want to understand and improve myself that's all. You guys can keep your trademarks, patents and branding cause it's no use to me. Some can tattoo aikido all over his head, and it still doesn't mean he knows squat about it after all. Chillzatl, I hope you got that definition up there. |
Re: Elbow Power
And ok let me put it out in the open before everyone jump in at once.
He's background is Aikido, coming from Yoshinkan, Aikikai, ..., shin shin toitsu,...,Aikikai. The ... Period would be where I think he learned DR from one of the current living teachers. My memory is bad, it could be Sagawa. He made a point that without DR it would have been really2 hard to understand Aiki. But, as he meets more and more teachers within the Aikikai circle who demonstrate their own understanding of Aiki, things that they rarely if ever display in public, he has come to believe that the Aiki of Aikido is different than in DR and the ryu before. Also, it's hard to learn. Of his hundreds of students, only two have shown measurable competency in Aiki. The rest of the yudanshas are able to do some tricks, but not all and not necessarily well. They still are a damn sight better than a lot of ppl I see on the mat today but hey, relative I guess. So, I know you keep saying what you are teaching is easy to learn Dan. Maybe you've figured out a good way to teach and all that. For one thing though, if DR teaches Aiki and it was that easy to learn, one would have expected that DR schools would be filled with Aiki masters today. Sadly that ain't the case. Most are still doing their physical thingey. There, I've gone and done it. Flay me why don't you. |
Re: Elbow Power
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Greg |
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It has happened on many levels and many, many times. And IP/aiki wins. I have no doubt that your Aikido teacher, like so many before him... would be just another statistic. If I ever find significant IP or aiki development in anyone in Aikido or Daito ryu I will shout it from the roof tops. For me, that will be a great find and a great day!!! It seems counter productive to just sit quietly, or to lie, when everyone I meet is incapable of demonstrating either IP or aiki to any serious degree. In my world view, these arts needs to be fixed, and that is what I am trying to help do. In the end it will handed off to the arts teachers to do the heavy lifting. As for systema; five of its higher level teachers were incapable of stopping well developed IP/aiki in open rooms with dozens watching and have told Vlad just that. We have a good reputation among Systema schools not just for what we can do but for openly stating how highly we regard Systema. I think the world of systema as a whole system. It is larger than one one one combatives and offeres so much, but I think our method of movement is superior for one on one combatives. While I have had invites to Japan, China, and the land of Oz I have no intentions of going. So they fly here. So, I can't ever see myself in your neck of the woods You would be smart to check out Sam Chin as well. Dan |
Re: Elbow Power
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I have been consistent since the Aikido list days; from then to now and round the world and on video I keep waiting and hoping to meet anyone in either art, with significant development. Couple of points 1. I absolutely do not believe that DR teaches Aiki to just anyone, and further there is no way you are ever going to find the fullness of IP/aiki in DR. There are significant reasons as to why. 2. I never said what I teach is easy. It is just easier and far more consistent than doing kata's for twenty years, getting crappy instruction and hoping for the best. You don't have to take my word for it, there are over a thousand people who are investing themselves in my methods because they are simply getting better results than by following the Japanese Shihans. And before you flay me....remember I don't want anyone to leave aikido or Daito ryu, but rather to stay and build them up and force them to live up to their promise of being among the most powerful arts the world has seen. We gave the Japanese teachers a chance, they screwed it up. We need to teach ourselves. It's the one chance the art has to move forward, by being fixed from without and then from within. Dan |
Re: Elbow Power
Fair enough. The world is a big place. Maybe one day we'll meet and I can learn something from you.
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