SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

[Editor's note: the following page links to a video containing some graphic violence and strong language. Please be warned.]

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/pizzaparlorbrawl.html

The above is a link to a recent unarmed assault that took place at a Pizza parlor in Akron Ohio. The accompanying video has brought up some interesting self defence tactics, ideas and concepts from another mailing list I am involved in. So I decided to post things here to get another view.

For those of you who train for reasons including self defence, what is your take on the video? What did the victim do wrong, what would you have done differently to end up not being plastered? How would your training in anything have helped you here?

Enjoy. :hypno:
LC:ai::ki:

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

Hi Larry,

I just added a small warning regarding the contents of the video...

-- Jun

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

Ok Jun, sorry if I offended anyone.

Will remember the G-rating in future.

Thanks.
LC:ai::ki:

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

In my opinion, combat is only partially an architectural matter. Often this point is so relevant that if all the other elements are in place, or more in place for you than for your adversary, you can actually gain victory though your tactical architecture may be totally absent or lacking in sophistication. The other matters of combat range from the purely physical (e.g. a strong/tough physique), to the psychological (e.g. the capacity to accept the reality of violence), to that that is in between (e.g. the capacity to access one's cultivated skills).

The video seems to leave the matter of tactical architecture moot -- since the victim pretty much made no attempt at arming himself either offensively or defensively. This brings up then the other, perhaps always more significant, elements. One can, and perhaps should, talk about the fact that the victim had himself in a place where apathetic people abound (which speaks to the relevance of picking one's battlefields and/or relating one's state of preparedness to one's environment). However, I think the main catalyst for what was allowed to occur was that the victim failed at two things: a) He denied his own instincts and thus denied the reality he was about to face (i.e. human on human violence); and b) He stuck to cultural convention when human on human violence is a subversion of all culture. Allow me to explain.

In the first case, at some level, the victim understood that the large male that entered the room last was set for aggression -- just as any skilled observer could also easily note. His body language, his lack of verbal language, his late arrival plus his lack of attempt or will to be filled in on what was occurring, etc., all spoke to the fact that this man was set for violence. We can see recognition of all of this on the part of the victim when he stopped confronting the woman that had just struck him because the man in question had closed distance toward him (the victim). This is a very common mistake in self-defense situations: denial of one's own premonitions that violence is about to occur. As a viewer, we can note the victim's denial of the situation he was now facing when he looks down again at his phone -- in the psychological attempt to return to a previous stage in the scenario that just occurred (when he was not so confronting the threat of actual violence). Unfortunately for him, this cue also worked to tell the assaulter that he had his opening, that he was dealing with someone that in all likelihood did not want to fight and thus would not fight back (which is a concern that all predators -- animal and human -- have and look to solve in one way or another). Tactically, looking down at that moment, also made the assaulter's strike the only strike that cannot be countered: The strike that cannot be seen.

You can see the assaulter still being concerned with the predatorial consideration of risking self-harm in the fact that his first strike is more of a "feeling out" of the victim -- like how a shark tests prey reactions with initial bites. For this reason, the victim actually had the chance to reconsider his situation -- to come to possess an understanding that was more accurate in its interpretations. Realizing now that he can no longer delude himself, that he is indeed in the midst of violence, the victim attempts to flee -- which is not a bad option concerning the size of the assaulter, the number of assaulters (here there were at least two), the fact that he (the victim) is already having to play tactical catch-up, and how non-conducive the environment (small, no allies, etc.) is toward launching a successful counter attack. However, when he flees, he restricts himself to the tenets of culture (i.e. men don't hit women) and thus incapacitates himself to move the woman out of the way when she is blocking the door and preventing him from escaping.

In my opinion, outside of the overall lifestyle choices that are certainly relevant, it is these two points at which had the victim acted to the contrary his chances of not being assaulted (or assaulted to such a degree) would have greatly increased. Had he trusted and accepted his first premonition that violence was indeed upon him, and thus not dropped his head (giving the predator the "ok" and the opening to attack), etc., and/or had he freed himself from cultural convention (which is what one must always do in all matters of assault), and thus pushed that woman out of the way so that he could escape, the end result would have probably been much different.

My perspective,
dmv

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

One thing that I noticed is the difference between the employee's reaction and that of the victim. Notice how the employee starts to go after Sims, then quickly changes his mind and gets back behind the counter the instant he sees the boyfriend. Also note that both the 'boyfriend' and Sims quickly change their focus once the employee is behind the counter...either they deemed it too hard or too dangerous to go back there. Very predatory in nature.

The next thing I notice is that the victim does some pretty typical chest bumping with Sims even though her 'boyfriend' is standing right behind her. I have to wonder why he would allow the dialogue to continue once that HUGE man walked in. I think I'd have been pretty busy doing anything to diffuse the situation at that point, even appologizing. Not because I meant it, but just to save my butt.

I have no idea what would work well once it goes to violence in that situation. The attacker would easily have 100 pounds on me...there's limited space to move, no one is helping, and the boyfriend clearly is willing to be the bully he is. Taking someone that large at that range down is probably harder than some grapplers will admit. And not a good idea with a large woman who is obviously willing to get physical right there. The best bet is to de-escalate while not leaving major openings, hands up (not down and out to the side) and open, side step to the door without turning your back, let the guy know you think its his world, and you are leaving.

It might sound cowardly, but frankly, without a weapon, I don't see the point of trying to 'fight' with someone like that. At that size differential, you may very well be looking at a fight for your life...and you'd better treat it as such. The first thing is get off that phone...if he had done that right away he would have seen the boyfriend come in and could have slipped out while he was focused on the employee.

In terms of technique, the only thing I can really say is that if your aren't looking down when the punch is coming, move with it toward the door and extend the guys balance as much as possible...in dojo settings I find it much safer to extend someone that size beyond their balance point. Then a quick step back in on the outside and hiji-shime the punching arm for a hyperextended elbow before running like hell...

Ron

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

If you are gonna act like a bad ass at all, you MUST be willing to throw the first, second, third, and as many succeeding blows as necessary to walk away safe. NEVER bump bellies with anyone unless you own them. This is exactly what the perpetrator did. He was willing to stand straight and let the smaller guy act up so he could pick his spot, wait for a blink of unawareness so he could nail him. It was never, in his mind, an option to NOT hit tis guy, it was a matter of how and when and where, but never if.

What this man could have done to prevent it, I don't know. I don't know what got the woman worked up in the first place. But once he'd gotten himself into this situation, his only option was to beat the big guy to the punch(es, as many as possible) and pray that someone from the pizza parlor kept the woman from copping a sunday from behind. At that point, he's set himself to go to jail.

In 2005, fighting is bad juju. Self defense is about timing and awareness. And respect. It starts with respect, and it ends with respect. Treat others with respect, and usually, this kind of thing doesn't happen. But if you're certain to be a victim, learn to fall down right away, act badly hurt, and protect your head; or learn to hit first, hit often, and hit as dirty and low as you need.

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

I get this type of question (in many varying forms) all of the time from potential new students where I train. My answer always has to be this. I am not fast. I could never get into a boxing match with any decent opponent and win. If I had to go toe to toe throwing punches with that guy, I would not like the outcome. Therefore, I would have to say that as soon as the aggressor broke ma-ai (safe distance, don't know if I spelled it right), action must begin. That is, as soon as the attacker moved in to get into the guys face, he should have been moving. I think a two handed shomen ate would have been a good start (and possibly the end as well), and I favor that because it can lead into a load of techniques with minimal transitions. My sensei has always told me that my technique starts the instant that an agressor breaks ma-ai. I know that there is a question of who will win on the legal side of things, but as far as self defense is concerned, this is where I think that it would sit.

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

I noted that just before the big guy threw the first punch, his shoulder moved back which is a good sign of the incoming punch. Had the other guy not taken his eye off him, and with a bit of training and luck, he may have been able to defend himself. His lack of awareness and flat out stupidity by provoking the incident by 1) running his mouth to begin with and 2) acting all tough when the big dude wasn't around is what, IMO, got him the butt whippin'.

Of course this is pure arm chair quarter backing and speculation. Heck, I suppose he could have offered to buy their pizza and apology to de-escalate the matter. One can only guess. Though I believe had he just not said anything, this would not have happened. At times, it's not WHAT you say, but HOW you say it.

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

The news did an interview with the "victim". I think he got what he was asking for. If the owner/manager doesn't handle someone cutting the line, apparently your money isn't as valuable as the person who has no respect for the line. He should of kept his mouth shut and went elsewhere--that's unless he could of backed up his smack-talking.

However, as far as the topic of self-defence is concerned, he should of ducked. Of course, I'm just running my mouth, but there's no reason that someone with a little heart and a little training couldn't of come out of that on top. That guy was so slow and was totally ready to be taken off balance when he threw those punches.

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

Jean,

If you know some background on the story, perhaps you could share some of the most relevant stuff with those of us that only know the scenario from what we saw in the video. I'm curious to see if knowing anything more would have me change my original stance.

Thanks in advance,
dmv

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

He said (either on CNN or the local news here), that when she walked to the front of the line, he said to his girlfriend (on the cell phone),"well know it's going to be even longer..." in a voice loud enough for her to hear.

In the interview, he had the same arrogant body language he did in the pizza video...atleast before he got it punched out of him. I think you express it in your post as instinctual recognition. I believe that's how I see it in him. You just know the type.

To me, he was just a want-to-be-tough-guy who got called out.

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

What struck me besides the complete arrogance of the cell phone guy was that nobody witnessing this occurrence stepped back or seemed all that concerned about what was going on. They were interested in watching but notice nobody lost position in line. Didn't this seem strange. I would have made sure I got out of the way, who knew that this wasn't going to turn into something else. I have tried to be more aware of situations that are best to avoid. This was definitely one of them.

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

Am I the only one offended and outraged by what a bunch of wussies (the cleaned up version of what I was really wanting to say) are standing around trying not to acknowledge what's happening?

This culture is sick. People are so damned afraid of lawyers, and people with guns, that we are willing to let a crime of stupidity, ugliness and really lousy punching skills take place while at least 5-6 people just stand there and smile like idiots. 1 big goof gets to act like a damned T-Rex because everyone is afraid he might turn on them. Hardly an apex predator, but he has the 'tude, so he gets away with it (till he goes to the pen). There is absolutely no reason he should have been able to keep hitting the (admittedly stupid) victim after the first shot. Fear wins another round.

Sick world. Too many lawyers, not enough guns. And men afraid to intervene because of a sick legal system.

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

I think the guy was unprepared for a real assault, as Senshincenter said. It is a common thing in American culture to be a billy bad ass but not actually engage in violence. A casual trip to any college bar or frat party will give you plenty of evidence to support this proposition. I think it stems from our reliance on image rather than reality. As a total side note, my friend just got back from Brazil and he said that the hardest gangsters in the hardest slums down there will smile and say hey to strangers like him. Dudes who will cut your throat in 2 seconds if you mess up their money but who are friendly and easy going otherwise. In this culture, we have the opposite--people who are totally unprepared for any type of violence but want to give off the proper masculine image.

To the specifics of the assault. I do not have extensive experience in any martial art, so I'm mostly trying to learn from others on this thread. Obviously, looking down was his mistake--he was looking down b/c he wanted to send a message to the big guy that he didn't actually want to fight, but that was too little, too late at that point. I disagree with an above commentator that the confrontation was inevitable. I think that if he had stood straight up in a ready position and maintained proper distance and balance, there is probably a good chance that the attacker would not have struck him at all. The first swing did not begin until AFTER the "victim" looked downward, so I don't know if an attack was inevitable, or perhaps the outcome was not inevitable. So that was his first mistake.

If he had been looking up (and like I said, if he had been looking up, he may not have been hit at all), he could easily have got off the line of attack, b/c the first slap/punch took a full second of cocking back and preparing before it actually made contact. Ikkyo may be hard to do without moving first (not much space there) b/c moving the attacker's arm would be difficult since he is so big and probably strong, but he could have led the attacker's energy toward him (the victim), moving toward around the attacker (sort of towards the door) somewhat like kokyu or irimi nage until the attacker's force was dissipated and then use ikkyo or many other techniques (some of which I haven't learned yet). I've never used aikido in a real life combat situation, but if I had to guess, I'd say he could've resolved this situation using aikido.

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

I Think The Problem With The Fight Was We Didnt See What Caused The Beef....notice That The Guy That Got Nailed Seemed As If He Had Started Somethin He Couldnt Step Up To...we Dont Know If He Was Out Of Line Or Not.yet He Seemed Very Regretful In The Situation....one Must Always Be Right In The Situation, Unless You Have A Wicked Heart And Dont Live By Principals Then You Dont Need Much To Get The Heart To Hurt Someone.
A Lot Of You Like To Write A Lot And Watch Carefully Not To Mispronounce Words When You Write And Seem Very Intelligent...however When Action Is Required In The Situation What Will You Really Do??life Is Not A Joke And Certainly The Video Link Clearly Displayed It...however Be Real To Yourself And Try To Balance Yourselves Between Everything In Life......have Your Principals...god Bless.

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

The very first thing I said when he was having a verbal moment with the attacker was - WAY to close. Mai-ai was very very poor, but of course the guys probably not trained. He definately had no focus and was not alert(cell phone). I think those to things alone may have alteast spared him of such a direct blow, and it wouldnt have been as devastating. I head that guy got sentenced to 4 years in jail already. Anyone heard the same?

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

This is classic "what not to do in a SD situation"...
What the vic should've done is this:
1. Never take your eyes off the aggressor(s)
2. Be aware of your surroundings
3. Look for an escape route and try to position yourself near it
4. Put down the goddamn phone!!!!
5. Raised both his hands and attempt to diffuse the situation - helps block potential face strikes too.
6. As soon as intent is clear and combative distancing is breached, duck and taken the knee of the lead leg out first
7. NEVER EVER TURN YOUR BACK ON THE AGGRESSOR. NEVER....
8. Never get into a grappling match with someone that size. Always take out the joints first - preferably the suspension ones FIRST.
9. Always have a follow-up technique or 2 or 3 or 6 :)
10. Be prepared for spectator involvement and if necessary, remove the threat
11. Exit/run

I don't know that I would do anything differently, or that any MA training would have helped. It's easy to be an armchair commentator. In reality, many in that situation would not be able to overcome the adrenal dump and would've been frozen to the spot. The only way I've found to avoid the adrenal dump is to suspend all ethical and moral consequences and go for the quick "kill".

Not very "aiki" (whatever that means) - but when one's life and livelihood is at stake, I don't know that any other response would be appropriate. Especially, not when said aggressors are intent on assaulting and occassioning bodily harm to you.

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the role the woman played in all of this. She committed multiple assaults: spitting on the employee and hitting cell phone guy in the back of the head. She was looking for trouble for whatever reason and the poor bastards were it. Plus, I bet that she knew exactly how the guy would react in that situation.

As to what you do, well, you get screwed. The only thing, and I doubt very many people could have pulled this off, would be to leave the moment the woman went psycho but then you'd have to know what was waiting outside. On the other hand, you might get worse outside..

Sure, lots wrong from a self-defense point but I suspect the guy was just trying to be invisible (like everyone else) which is also a tactic. You just put your head down and try to stay out of the way. As to the cell phone, well, no way he was thinking clearly at that point but I'm not confident any of us would have been smarter.

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

Several folks mentioned her - even counted her as a second attacker.

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

Like Mike said for me the most shocking thing was how the half a dozen or so men did nothing and even after just ignored the guy on the floor. Cowards.

Biggest mistake he made was squaring up to the guy. That is just dumb. Squaring up to 300lb guy is even dumber you won't stand a chance unless you know you can walk the walk. As soon as the guy fronted him he should have stepped back and been ready. He shouldn't have even given him the opportunity to get his hands near him without being in a position to defend himself. If it was me being a shorty I would have pounded on his balls, punching, kicking, pulling what ever it took.

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

I don't think criticizing the bystanders for inaction is fair. Because they all stood there and minded their own business, cell phone guy got beat down, T-Rex left, and that was the end of story. Keep in mind these people could not afford themselves the degree of detached retrospection that we can viewing this video in front of our computer screens.

If I was there, I'm probably thinking "I should go help this guy out, but then what if T-Rex just turns around and decapitates me too? Maybe some other guys will jump in to help, but what if they get hurt too? What if we wreck the place? What if T-Rex comes back tomorrow with his homies and shoots up the place?" etc., and keep in mind in this time frame I don't even really know the whole story of what's going on, plus cell phone guy is all up in T-Rex's face to begin with, so is it really my place? Really, all I want is my pizza.

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

About all the passive bystanders, who are blamed by some for just doing nothing: psychology has shown that this is the most common reaction, expecting that someone else will intervene.
Some numbers: if people thought they were the only witness to an assualt, 85% came to the aid of the victim after on average 52 seconds; if they thought there were 4 other witnesses, 31% did something after 166 secs on average.
And a horrible story to illustrate my point furhter: Kitty Genovese was beaten to death in 30 minutes, there were 38 witnesses living nearby, hearing her scream and seeing what happened from their windows. Not one of them came to her aid.
(Numbers and story come from my psychology class at university.)

So ironically, if there were fewer people in that pizza parlor the victim might have gotten some help.

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

Mistakes the victim made:

1) Talking smack with a woman. She was almost his own size! I think SHE could have taken him out... and who is going to win a fight between a man and a woman? The woman will, because the guy should have never laid a hand on her in the first place.

2) Being arrogant. The guy should have kept his mouth shut in the first place. Talking out loud so that everyone could hear was a sign of disrespect. The woman, though in the wrong, was thereby challenged and had to do something about it. And she did.

3) Body language. Don't "puff up" and act all bad unless your ready to see it through. Clearly, he wasn't... not even with the woman. He thought he was... he was dead wrong. ESPECIALLY when Bubba walked in.

4) Don't jack with Bubba. That guy was HUGE! NEVER tell someone that size that you are right and he and his girl friend are wrong. That's just STUPID! Pride got in the way of common sense. Anytime I see someone that size coming my way, I make it a point for them to know I'm on their side... even though I'm probably not. By doing that, I'm no longer a threat. THEN... if I need to do something to defend myself or another... it'll be coming out of the blue. They won't know what hit him.

5) After the fight started, he should have gone under the counter or out the door. That space was too damn small to do anything with, it was TWO against ONE and no one standing around was going to interject. Running one way or another was his only choice at that point. BUT... sitting there and taking it was stupid as well. If you get knocked down... MOVE! Don't sit there and hope they stop. That's as stupid and starting that crap in the first place.

Personally, I'd like to see the "victim" get ticketed for assult. He was acting in a threatening way against the girl and that was wrong. That is what started the whole damn thing and he needs to understand that as well.

But that's just me...

PS: No amount of aikido (techniques) I know would have helped. That space was too small to do a damn thing and the guy was too strong. Who here can honestly say they could have locked down a wrist lock on that guy? If you can, you've been at aikido for over five years and really know your stuff... or your lying to yourself. I'm a big dude, and I wouldn't have even bothered. You screw it up, your dead.

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

Hi John,

Frankly, I think you are pretty on target. There are a lot of posts on the net about how bad a fighter the big guy is, how untrained, clumsy, etc. I don't buy it. The guy is certainly no pro, but you can see he has a LOT of experience as a bully. He reads the environment and his target well to ensure there is no real threat to himself. He is fairly relaxed and balanced throughout his attack. Even though he is throwing HUGE bombs, he only loses his balance (you can see him bobble a bit) a little. I think he is probably moving with stiff or locked knees a lot from what shows.

That said, this guy is a serious menace; his size alone dictates run away if possible. Wrist locks??? forget it. That's why I suggested hiji-shime/wakigatami. Go straight to the elbow after extending his balance. If it was just him, take it straight to the floor. But in the victim's situation that is not advisable. Even with hiji-shime, its an even bet the guy won't just shake someone my size off like an annoying toy poodle...or worse yet, literally throw you on your head with shear power.

RT

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

Given that Guy's size and aggressive nature I doubt most shihan could have controlled that guy at that distance.....sometimes discretion is just the better part of valor.

The best advice for this particular situation......is don't get into this type of situation.

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

Hi All,

Having sat and watched the video and read everyone's responses, I only have a couple comments.

I don't disagree that the victim probably brought this on himself, but blaming him seems a little harsh given the beating that he took. The attacker was clearly aware that this was no match and showed no restraint whatsoever. This attacker should go to jail and I hope he serves the entire 4 years.

I'm too new in Aikido to make comments re: techniques for situations like this, but I certainly agree with the many posts that speak to de-escalation or leaving the pizza place ASAP. I also agree with earlier posts that the bystanders should have made some sort of effort, although easier said than done given the enormity of the attacker.

I now remember why I prefer frozen pizzas!

Mark

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

Here's what an office mate asked me: what exactly would I do as a bystander. My answer was

a) use a cell phone (from the appropriate distance) to call 911
b) loudly start telling the attacker to leave that man alone
c) try to inlist two or three other men to toss that nut's butt out the door.

The problem with b and c is that you don't know for sure if the guy is armed! Even if 3 of you approach him, if he pulls out a gun and starts shooting, everyone in the place is now at risk.

What would YOU do as a bystander?

Ron

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

Interesting posts.

My main thoughts when looking at the video, as far as the victim goes - no sense of awareness of personal space (talking on the cell phone in the midst of a physical altercation??) and of keeping good distance from an aggressor, bad decisions in playing tough guy one moment and then trying to de escalate when the Big Guy comes into the fray and then failing to run out the door (regardless of whether the woman was blocking or not) after he got the first shot. The problem was he did nothing to actually try to defend himself. Or at least nothing even remotely effective based on the different stages of the encounter. He pretty much went automatically into victim mode.

To me this video shows a single important thing - how unprepared many of us are for dealing with "real", serious and targeted violence and how we behave (or fail to adequately adjust) when it suddenly shatters our glass house of "expected civilised social behavioural norms". It's interesting that at no point did the basic animal instinct to escape or run for one's life trigger. Imo the victim had a few opportunities to escape the altercation, well before the physical attacks started and also during the attack before he was put out on the floor. At his size the woman blocking the door could not have stopped him if he was seriously motivated and intent on running for his life. He'd have plowed right through her. This to me says something about the mental conditioning involved. Is it that when we get attacked in the "civilised" world that we are thinking "call 911" and "lawsuits" instead of basic survival first?

As far as head being down when he got the punch, he was pretty much looking at the striking hand (or at least looking in its specific direction) as the punch came. This should have triggered at least some sort of primitive reflexive/flinch defence mechanism such as raising the hands to protect the face or something. After already being accosted by the woman in a hostile manner he should have been in some sort of heightened alert state which would have allowed this, as is normal with our basic untrained responses to aggression.

As far as what I would do in that situation I think it's easy with hindsight to say anything. But having been in a very similar one I know what I'd do and have done - someone above said Shomen Ate, I was thinking along similar lines - Shomen ate carried straight thru towards the door and into the woman, letting his off balanced weight take her with him and clear the door for my escape - I'd forget joint locks, at that degree of danger I'd be snapping not subduing, but one never knows, if it presents itself, hey why not.:D The good thing about big guys is that when they do go down they go down HARD, so take out the structure and pray the don't know ukemi.:evileyes: Going to the floor could be suicide unless you are an exceptional grappler. As a pretty big guy myself I know what a little knowledge about using bodyweight can do in a ground situation, and then there is the woman there waiting to kick your brains in - not my first choice.

But to be very honest I'd not have been in the situation to begin with, since I don't let anyone get as close as that woman got with any sort of aggressive energy to start. Also, due to awareness I'd kinda sense that the guy who came storming in the door in a huff after the manager probably had something to do with the woman who was making trouble, so I'd make my escape right after the big guy entered (since the victim was also a target of the woman's rage before she tackled the manager). Judging by the aggressive and agitative energy she alone possessed I can only imagine what Big Guy would be compelled to do even if he were not so willing.

Also, what Tony S. said about the possibility of help from others being determined by how many people were there, I'd say that is about correct. The more people watching, the more people who think someone else is gonna help. Hence why when something happens and 911 needs to be called you pick someone (hopefully who has a phone) and say "YOU - call 911" else everyone else assumes that someone will do it. Weird if you ask me, but true.

Just my 2 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

Regarding the bystanders 'just watching because they're scared.'

I would of just watched to. Not because I was scared, but because I watched that guy inviting it. I'm a big fan of people minding their own business. Seems to me that that guy wanted to fight. Who am I to impose my values (breaking up the fight he wanted)?


Regarding 'looking down' at the cell phone.

No doubt, he shouldn't of done it. However, recheck the film with this in mind. The motions were a part of the "tough-guy" routine. His gestures were saying,"alright, now I'm going to set this down and take care of you."

Regarding 'I don't know any Aikido that would of been handy here.'

Haven't you been practicing your side strikes as uke? Duck and side-strike the back of the head. He was vulnerable when he followed through on the punch.

What about your step-in thrusts? Haven't you noticed that it's a palm-heel strike to the chin? When he rears back to strike, he was susceptible.

Aikido's a study in balance, with that in mine, we have a few more rudimentary options: If fatty's left foot was forward, when his weight was forward through the swing, you could duck, slide between his right side and the on-lookers, grab his leg (which being all his weights on the front foot, should be pretty easy to lift), let him fall on his face, walk out while slapping his g.f. for the trouble:)

If his right foot is forward, duck, grab his leg and make him fall back as he's recovering his balance from all of it moving forward. Then slide out to your right, slapping the g.f. for the trouble on the way out:)


I once used the step-in thrust/palm heel like that. It works.

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

Humph, when any of my instructors see me 'duck' they tell me 'this is japanese martial arts...no ducking...enter....' :)

I'd like to think a palm strike (shomen ate, which has been mentioned in this thread) would do the trick...but frankly, with someone that big, I don't think I'm going 'inside'...I prefer to chip around the edges, let him lean toward me, and extend him. But hey, its all monday morning quarterbacking, so who can tell?

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

just my experience

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

Hindsight is, of course, 20-20. Of course you don't lip of to a woman with a 300-lb. bully. Of course you don't face off with said bully. What could be simpler?

Hmm. Far as I can see; this was as close to an unavoidable incident I've ever seen - good example of why 'if you don't look for trouble, trouble won't find you' doesn't always work.

As I read these posts; opinion is almost unanimous that the guy 'got what was coming' to paraphrase. One even said he would have stood by and watched - not because of the risk of getting involved which is either sensible or cowardly, depending on your outlook but because he's a 'big fan of people minding their own business'.

NOW let's look at it from the victim's point of view.
He's in a line waiting for pizza talking on his cellphone when some woman pushes rudely ahead of him. He makes the comment that is apparently the one acceptable reason for violence: "It's going to be a bit later..."
Just to be clear, I would not have said that myself. I'd have said "Hey! Get to the back of the damn line, you!" Go ahead - call me rude.
Ohhhhhhh - but you don't say that when her boyfriend is 300lbs!!!!!
Well yeah - but he wasn't there at the time was he?

This was flat-out an unplanned trap. Unplanned in that these two had no intention of going in to beat some guy up, but a trap nonetheless. Both were a ticking time bomb - she much worse than he. The 'Bully' is nothing more than a p-----y puppet 'standing up' (in his little peanut brain) for his girl, and using the excuse to get some free ego points at the same time.

OK, well the victim certainly shouldn't have squared off with the big dude, right?
Yo - Where was he gonna go?!? He was cornered - jammed in by 2 walls, customers, a psycho b*tch and a meat wall. Apart from that initial "WTF is your problem?" when she cuffs him, his attitude looked to me like the usual "Hey look now..." useless conciliation many people show. He was outclassed, he knew it, he was trying to be nonconfrontational.
No awareness skills, no defensife skills, he left himself wide open for the attack - not that it would have mattered.

IMO there was nothing the victim could have done given the situation to avoid the beating - the perp wanted to cause violence and didn't care one whit about anything else.

Now if the victim was trained? Diff story maybe, but I don't know, I doubt it. I'll bet anything big dude was armed - no need to pull it while everything was his way. If it turns around well......

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

As usual, DaveO nails it.

Of course you look at it and think of what could have been done differently. Work on your deescalation skills. Work on tactics for when the deescalation doesn't work. But I doubt as many as 0.1% of the general population would have been able to avoid a busted face if you were in that guy's position.

Much less of a size disparity and equal or greater viciousness/ferocity and willingness to hit first-- maybe.

Insanely great deescalation skills, about Ghandi level, perhaps Houdini-like illusion ability -- maybe.

A really good fighter, with training and experience to deal with that first bomb -- maybe.

Hey, it's easy to look at the video and see that first punch coming. Maybe not so easy when down on the ground. In fact, the slow windup can actually help hide the coming punch -- it may look like he's just slightly turning away and get "lost in the noise". Looks like Big Guy may have had practice with that little trick. A lot of practice.

And hey, I wouldn't spend too much time criticizing the victim's actions after that punch lands. Unless you train regularly when semi-conscious.

=wl

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

Why is the loser always the victim? It just depends from which time you start watching. In my youth I witnessed several nasty fights and in most cases, both started it. If the not-so-little-guy had suddenly pounced on and trampled the big guy you might all be discussing what the new victim did wrong. Fighting is stupid - and sooner or later that big-guys recklessness will be reveresed upon him. Indeed, he got videoed beating the hell out of someone for little apparent reason - not so smart.

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

Well that's interesting. I guess as soon as we get hit hard by someone we should just curl up and kiss it all goodbye and not even try to escape (not fight mind you, escape). Interesting concept.

I have a few folks (Boxing types) who train and get hit a lot, sometimes I join them for the experience of getting hit. I agree one's options can get quickly and extremely limited after the first shot lands (especially if you are dumb enough to let it land at full force), but in the video the "victim" was punched in a way that placed him nearer to the point of escape than he had been before the altercation. In fact he was in the doorway at one point and still standing. Instead of turning to go back towards danger (which is what he did), primal instinct dictates "run away from danger" until one's legs gave out if necessary. This has nothing to do with training. To me, it appears the "Victim" may have believed his own bad boy BS so much that he did not know what to do when placed on the receiving end of Bullydom (is that a word?):p.

Dave-O said: I totally agree with Dave. What I am wondering though is if we are placed in an "unavoidable incident" as Dave says above, do we do nothing because the guy is decidedly bigger, stronger etc.? Given whatever training we do I mean. Last time I checked (in Aikido) one did not allow the attacker to take one's energy and will to survive via intimidation tactics, and even when it does happen, do we not even make an attempt to survive? This last part has not much to do with the video, but the second part of the question. What would you do? Remember, self defence is not about fighting (which is what happens after you have failed at the more effective aspects like conflict evasion), it is about surviving and escaping. Do we give up as soon as we get hit or realise the guy is bigger, stronger or has friends and we can't run away, or do we try something that helps us get into a favourable escape situation at some point during the conflict?

Just my 2 cents. I reserve the right to be wrong.
LC:ai::ki:

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

Hi Larry. :)

From what I see; the victim's body language is - after the "WTF?" from the female's initial strike (Which to be honest - who wouldn't do?) entirely conciliatory. He's not presenting a 'tough guy' stand - his arms are down, palms outward, shoulders slumped etc. Classic submissive behaviour.
While we're blaming one guy or the other here; let's not lose sight of the true instigator: the female. She was the one that was causing/inflaming this whole thing. Bid dude was following her lead; even though he might not have believed so himself. Not to justify in any way his actions, but they are understandable. (To be clear; I mean that not as justification but in the same way that we understand why a mugger will go after a little old lady instead of a seven foot biker.) She was completely out of control, her 'boyfriend' followed suit.
Quite frankly, the guy was toast the second the big guy walked in - the determination to do violence had already been made.
Now - to the victim's actions: Yes, the attacker's first strike knocked him near the door, but this was no boxing punch, it was a full-power bare knuckle shot to the head. The guy might have been in the open door, but for the second he was there was far too stunned to take advantage of it. No-one I believe would take a hit like that without getting his jingle jangled.
The victim is clear for approx. a second - though the second strike doesn't come for about 4 seconds after the first; the attacker has a hold of the victim by the right arm, or at least appears to. Also, keep in mind the shot knocked the guy to the door, which pushed the woman, who was blocking the door, outside. IOW, keeping him in. In any event, he does try to move to the door when the attacker strikes again with a hammerhand in the back of the skull. Effectively, lights out at that point.

Now; as to your other point:
Sorry Larry; I'm not really sure what you mean by this. In the video, the guy had given up simply because there was no fight in him - he was a rag doll after those two massive hits. Aikido-wise; I suppose its possible - highly doubtful, but possible - that a highly experienced practicioner (Say 8th dan or so) could effectively redirect that shot. Undoubtedly could on the mat; but again, we're talking about two different things here. Aikido is one answer - it is not the whole answer.
As for myself and what I would have done, I'd have struck first - attacked full-force high and low - to the head and knee simultaneously. Hardly aiki and likely not effective, but in that situation given the environment the only real chance I'd have. The big guy was in control of the situation - he chose the moment of the attack and held the initiative. Tactically, you have to take the initiative yourself and force the opponent onto the defensive if you're to escape an SD situation and in this case; the only real way to do that is a sudden blast attack. Remember; the guy thinks like a Grizzly bear: "I'm the Biggest Baddest Dude, I can Do What I Want." He's not expecting an attack; especially a paired destabilization/antistructural strike. It's the only shot I'd get, I'd make sure it was the most effective possible.
Is that aiki? No way - the very antithesis. Is it legal? Possibly - it's definitely in that blurry area in which you'll be convinving a judge. But letting a monster like that keep the initiative is like trying to tenkan with a freight train. :)
Now; from a purely aikido perspective: going frame by frame; it's possible (again assuming a high degree of control and ability - far, far above what I posess) the victim could have at the moment of attack slidestepped into a modified tenkan to avoid the initial strike. Of course; that'd send him directly into the psycho girlfriend, who was blocking the door. From that point, the 'maybe's' start to build exponentially.
End result: A two-on-one attack in which the victim had no real means of escape or avoidance. He was targeted, he was isolated, he was taken out and nothing - save every person in that building jumping on the pair and likely even not that - could have stopped it.

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

Did anyone notice? After it's over the big guy drags his 'victim' about - as though with some purpose in mind - then picks up the 'victim's phone and walks off with it.

Dave Organ wrote:
I suppose its possible - highly doubtful, but possible - that a highly experienced practicioner (Say 8th dan or so) could effectively redirect that shot.

Redirect that? Are you joking? Not even remotlely possible (although part of me would like it to be possible). The average 8th Dan Aikido is usually over 65-70 years old - unless you are referring to some of those 8th Dan+ young guns from the Bad Budo section of E-Budo (not possible for them either). More likely, the 8th Dan Aikido would not get into such a situation in the first place.

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

I saw it. Good news too because it will add to the list of charges but also interesting because it suggests a degree of impunity when it comes to this sort of thing.

Dave, nice posts.

To all of you talking about the bystanders, mayhaps you should also be thinking about gang affiliation which also means guns. As a bystander you dial 911, get ready to be a damn fine witness if called upon and put out nice thoughts. Plus, maybe the bystanders recognized that in the guy which is why they got the hell out of the way.

So, what do you do? You do something crazy or outside the box. You get your ass behind the counter with the staff, if you can. You drop to your knees and bow profusely per the Terry Dobsen technique. You deck the guy next to you. You start a verbal confrontation with the guy next to you. You beat the crap out of your jacket per the Richie Cunningham technique. You grab some furniture (tables and chairs) and start throwing it around while making an even bigger ruckus than psycho woman, plus a chair can be a weapon. You break out in song. Anything to break the pattern of disorientation by the woman and assault by the guy. But really, who is going to do this stuff?

Fighting is also a no-win for one more reason. If you had precognitive abilities and knew what was coming then you have to deck the woman before the guy comes in. Remember, she might have a weapon so she HAS to go down, and stay down, in my opinion. Anyone up for that? I'm not?

Then you have to attack him, first, with murderous intent, hopefully while he's tending to the woman. But you can only do that IF you know what's coming and even then it just might get you killed rather than concussed. Plus, then you get to go to jail where he's certain to have more friends than you do. And, as Dave pointed out the guy is probably armed. So, basically, you have to kill him. Something else I'd prefer not to be up to.

Honestly, a beating and a few brain cells isn't that harsh a price given some of the alternatives.

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

I think it's good to reflect upon what happened here. Clearly you can get the crap beaten out of you, and it will leave you permanantly injured, and no one will help you until after the fact.

Re: SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack
 

Hi Larry,

I've watched it a couple of times now, I just go "oooof" everytime I see that first punch. Ignoring the who started it, who said what, who deserved what arguments, personally, I think that it's a hell of an assumption for any of us to say the guy should have done this or that after he got hit. None of us were on the end of the punch. We may train in Aikido or other arts, we may practice with boxers at getting hit. We understand things such as ma ai and tai sabaki, and using these to protect ourselves to the best of our abilities, but does he? We have no idea. Everyone takes punches differently, some have harder heads than others, some have different pain tolerances, some absorb punches better, there's a whole load of factors involved here that we just didn't experience. Of course, "armchair quarterbacking" a term mentioned above, allows us to give our opinions, but we shouldn't assume that he was capable of anything.

If someone hit me with a big punch like that, I reckon I'd be out for the count, if not I reckon I'd be in a very, very dazed state like, even if I was on my feet. Looking at the guys reaction, I don't think he was on his feet for any reason other than the door stopped him from falling down, if you look closely you'll see his knees buckle a bit after he stands still, then the second panch rains in. He was out for the count. I was ringside when Lennox Lewis caught Razor Ruddock with a big punch on the side of the head, Ruddock jerked upright like a coiled spring and went down like a sack of potatos, that was a guy trained to take punches.

despite our experiences of training and getting hit, I just don't think that any of us really know what the guy felt, or what he could do after.

If it was me in the pizza parlour, I'd just hope that I didn't get into that type of situation in the first place :eek:.

rgds

Bryan