Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...
 

movement for the sake of movement does not mean understanding behind the move. One needs to understand why we move certain ways, not only how.

O'Sensei once said that a student could learn all the basics of aikido if he practiced just three techniques: 1)tai-no-henko, 2)morotedori-kokyuho, and 3)suwariwaza-kokyuho. I have my own theory of this based on basic mechanical laws but others may not have a clue. The explanation to this only becomes obvious over a very long period of time. Ever wonder why you can do morotedori on weak people but impossible to move even an inch on people with muscular build. Not bragging but I think I can move everybody no matter what build because I know mechanics theory which I applied to very muscular people in the dojo. The move is trvial but not obvious if one does not understand mechanics..

The dojo is a laboratory and every aikido practice should be treated as experiments. One should postulate theories about techniques which should undergo tests through trial and error. If a theory holds true for all techniques, then it becomes a principle and you do this over time to collect principles. A true master collects principles, he does not collect techniques imo and this takes a lot of time..

Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...
 

Genuinely curious, can you provide more details? A link to an article?

Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...
 

I think this is the one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r90w-AXESIk

Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...
 

Thank you. A (tiny ) bit more here http://blog.aikidojournal.com/2012/0...th-kotegaeshi/

Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...
 

And it doesn't take 10-20 years to teach somebody this. The point is does your instructor teach you this or not.

If the "weak" person actually knows how to apply morotetori with correct body mechanics you ain't moving them for an inch either without applying proper mechanics of your own. The same is with muscular people. I trained with a friend who is very muscular, he has the forearms of a lumberjack, it took me some time to get the mechanics right, about a couple of months, so I could actually us it on him properly. After that it was drilling to the point it became automatic.

Yes, but if you train in a formed martial system with already developed principles the whole point is to adapt those principles to your own body not to "rediscover" principles that are already there. Then it's mostly a waste of time.

Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...
 

Our definition of "principle" seems to be different. You don't rediscover something if you havnt discovered or know that something in the first place.

Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...
 

Yes you do if the instructor doesn't explain it to you. Like I said, when you train in an established system it's preposterous for somebody to train you in a way were you have to "rediscover" a principle. If he doesn't explain to you the mechanics behind the movement rather lets you dabble in the dark for several year my suggestion is to simply abandon that instructor.

Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...
 

The links above are the incident i was referring to; I got a couple of details wrong. Thanks for posting the links...I share this story with my students to illustrate the effective use of aikido in the real world.

Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...
 

Grabs are the most fundamental part of Aikido training because that is the strictest test of one's Aiki.

Timing, distance and evasion are common throughout all martial arts. But not all martial arts are aikido. what makes aikido unique is the ability to move freely, without heed of any obstruction or restraint. That comes from mastering Aiki. Which is letting movement project outwards freely, while staying connected to the ground and remaining strong through one's centre.

The grab is the strictest test because your uke is giving you his force freely. He is committed entirely to the grab, which means he is at his most vulnerable as well. He can't pull back or resist any movement you do which would affect his balance. If your aikido can't even move an uke in such a state, what good is it?

If you can't do Aiki, what is 'AIKI' do?

Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...
 

In the 80"s Merritt Stevens taught Aikido to law enforcement officers and correctional officers. He developed "The Merritt Stevens System".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=RYN7jGv27xg
http://www.mokurendojo.com/2014/02/m...ns-aikido.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKfK...ature=youtu.be

His son Moe Stevens still practices in Orient, Ohio;

"Just this Aikido"

Moe Stevens, 7th Dan
The Mojo
1470 Hiner Rd
Orient, OH
(614) 871-3268
mastevens@columbus.rr.com

Hope this can be of help.

dps

Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...
 

This is similar to how my Sensei Chuck Cycyk would test his Aikido. He started practising Aikido in the 60's. When he went to New York to attend Sensei Yamada's seminars he would go to Spanish Harlem to test his Aikido by purposely getting into fights. It worked for him.

It worked for me when I needed to defend myself.

dps

Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...
 

The interesting thing for me is that the real world is so full of variety.

I work with small children who are consistently violent and while most of the aggression is easy to absorb, a sharp pencil in a group of students I must protect means I have to be exceedingly careful, both for the initial attacker and those around me who might then react violently as a response...especially when we use pencils daily. If I severely strain the wrist of a student while protecting (for example) my eyes, that will be seriously and strictly evaluated.

My application of Aikido in these situations is nothing like what most of you are talking about, but it does still apply and works.

A key feature which I believe Aikido shares with any martial art, is the essential element of proactivity. The working is directly related this, as far as my meager point of view can tell.

That all said, I can tell "my" aikido (somewhat) works because I train with people who will do kaeshi on me if they can...often enough. They will point out a weakness or ask me if they can try something at a point where they sense an opening. In short, they test me at regular intervals. I will never go into the seedy parts of town to see if it works. I've known too many people who were sufficiently dangerous to know that is tempting fate, and I have a strict policy against that. :)

Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...
 

THIS.

A friend and fellow gardener once said to me, "A weed is a plant that's growing where I don't want it to." Similarly, aikido "works in the real world" if it does what you want to, in the world in which you find yourself.

Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...
 

If you don't at least practice jiyu-waza with sloppy hobo punches, kicks and tackles at the end of every class, your Aikido won't work IRL. At least not to a degree that is considered somewhat reliable. You need to develop basic reflexes to weird random attack vectors, which teaches recovery from "bad" techniques, as well as forcing "bad" techniques to finish, and finishing with half-baked self-invented techniques, which are all crucial to real-world application.

Testing Aikido by "being held strong" doesn't actually test anything. I can do shiho nage when someone's holding with their whole might, frozen like a statue. Then I can go to a Judo dojo, and have people grab with aliveness, which makes shiho nage downright impossible. Jiyu-waza is as close as a cooperative system like Aikido can come to generating a degree of aliveness. Get ukes to be slightly mischievous, pulling themselves out thru obvious big holes in techniques. It still won't work against Judoka, but it will work against untrained attackers, who are the majority of population. Which, considering inherent limitations of Aikido, is a solid goal to strive for.

Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...
 

Aikido always works, it's not necessary to get into fights to find that out. Aikido works because it's fun every time I go to training. Aikido works because it helps my heart condition and my rheumatoid arthritis. Aikido works because it makes me happy. Etc.

Maybe aikido, in a real fight, should be judged based on if aggression and fights can be avoided, defused, hate turned into love.

Peace

Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...
 

I've actually had the opportunity to use Aikido in real world situations (physical confrontations) 11 times. 4 of those where against multiple attackers. Every time Aikido worked for me. But please keep in mind that I've been doing martial arts since I was 5 years old. Each time I've used Aikido has been a very enlightening experience that one day I will talk about on one of my vlogs. Here's my channel if you'd like to see what I've put up so far: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuoZuBAkY3cve-YHuedOtXw

Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...
 

11 times? Raising eyebrows.

Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...
 

Your use of a technique that was practiced in the last class when the confrontation occurred seems common among Aikidoka. Anecdotally, this is often what you hear, "And it was what I just learned!", or, "It was what we had practiced last night!". I suspect it is because that technique was on the top of the mental pile, so to speak, so when the energy flowed in the right direction that was what came out.

Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...
 

This started out as something humorous and has become a debate of sorts. Ellis has mentioned how the police and corrections folks have successfully used aikido professionally. Most of them don't even know that they are practicing a form of aikido - but simply doing "defensive tactics".

The late Bob Koga was a sergeant with the Los Angeles Police Department in the fifties and wasn't at all happy with the training officers were getting. He developed a form of aikido, which he named "Practical Aiki-do" and introduced it to LAPD training. Koga Sensei knew that traditional aikido took a lot of focus and training, probably more than the average police officer would follow, so he took all the "pretty" away. LAPD adopted his training and within a few years agencies from all over the US began teaching Koga Sensei's program. After he retired, and up until his death, Koga Sensei continued to teach Practical Aiki-do all across the country.

The bottom line to all this is that most police officers practice a form of aikido that works very well for them. Most don't even know the relationship between what they train in and our traditional art. For the police it is rarely humorous, but it does work. I began training in traditional aikido after learning the Koga development in my academy class. I am grateful to Bob Koga, a friend, a neighbor, and a teacher.

Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...
 

So much talking!