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-   -   Tori vs Dori (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4731)

Daniel Mills 12-04-2003 11:02 AM

Tori vs Dori
 
Is there actually a difference? If so, what exactly, please? :)

-D.

akiy 12-04-2003 11:15 AM

No difference. "Tori" comes from the Japanese verb "toru" which basically means "to take." When some consonants are used after certain sounds, they undergo what's called "nigori" in Japanese or "becoming voiced" in linguistic circles. In this case, the "t" sound becomes boiced and becomes "d".

Hope that helps,

-- Jun

Daniel Mills 12-04-2003 05:29 PM

I didn't think there was any difference. I use Tori whereas a friend used Dori and proclaimed I was incorrect, so.. I set out to set him straight.

Many thanks :)

-D.

kironin 12-04-2003 05:41 PM

:freaky:

I am more worried about

doumo

vs.

dou mo

Craig

BKimpel 12-04-2003 09:17 PM

Speaking of romaji (writing Japanese using Roman letters), who finds the switch from the Hepburn system to the (Sin-) Kunreisiki ((new) Cabinet ordinance system) completely annoying? (Not to mention the earlier Nipponsiki (Japanese style), which is even more confusing)

For instance, doomo (Hepburn), written as doumo does not help English-speaking people pronounce the o longer (or emphasized o sound). It actually serves to confuse things more, naturally thinking of the sound as an oooo sound (like shoe in English).

Does anyone else have troubles with the Kunreisiki way, or is it just me? By the by, which way is used currently (assumingly outside of Japan)?

Also Jun, maybe you can answer this one for me:

Is tsuki (punch) and suki (opening) supposed to sound the same (both ‘ski' because of the almost silent u)? Or is there supposed to be a different sound for the t in tsuki?

The reason I ask is because I have great difficulty discerning the two words spoken by Japanese (maybe that's just me too).

Nick Simpson 12-05-2003 07:47 AM

Im most probably wrong but I was disscussing the similarity between tsuki and suki the other day. I was under the impression that you pronounced suki with more of a z sound, like "zuki", becuase otherwise the similarity is confusing, or it is to me at least...

Kent Enfield 12-05-2003 01:47 PM

Quote:

Bruce Kimpel (BKimpel) wrote:
Is tsuki (punch) and suki (opening) supposed to sound the same (both ‘ski' because of the almost silent u)? Or is there supposed to be a different sound for the t in tsuki?

I'm not Jun, but I can answer this. The two words do not sound the same. Both of have "almost silent" u's, but the intial consonant is different. Tsuki is pronounced with the ts. Though this combination starts no English words, it ends all sorts of them. Say "cats" without the "ca" part.

When the intial syllable becomes voiced (like when tori becomes dori), both become zuki. With a voiced initial consonant, the u is also pronounced.

Just like morote + tori = morote dori, morote + tsuki = morote zuki.

BKimpel 12-05-2003 08:21 PM

Thanks Kent.

Now is the z in zuki actually pronounced as a z sound (like in English), or is that just the new Kunreisiki way of spelling it (which completely confuses me!)?

By the way, what is the "nigori" rule anyway? I mean are all consonants "voiced" when another word precedes it, or only some?

From my Karate days I remember Keri (kick) becoming Geri when combined (such as in Mae-Geri (front kick), or Mae Keage-Geri (front snap kick)), and I have always known the tori switch to dori (as in morote-dori, of jo-dori).

Kent Enfield 12-05-2003 11:22 PM

Quote:

Bruce Kimpel (BKimpel) wrote:
Now is the z in zuki actually pronounced as a z sound (like in English), or is that just the new Kunreisiki way of spelling it (which completely confuses me!)?

Yes, it's pronounced liked an English z. The Kunreisiki spelling would be tuki and suki, pronounced differently, going to duki and zuki, pronounced the same.
Quote:

Bruce Kimpel (BKimpel) wrote:
By the way, what is the "nigori" rule anyway? I mean are all consonants "voiced" when another word precedes it, or only some?

Rule? I don't know a hard and fast rule. You just get a feel for it after a while. And there's not always a "correct" version. Some people say fukuro shinai, some say fukuro jinai.

Rupert Atkinson 06-08-2004 11:16 PM

Re: Tori vs Dori
 
In Aikido, 'Tori' is a noun meaning the 'attacker.'

-dori is from the same verb (Toru) but the T changes to a D sound when it is not in the initial position, i.e. ai-hanmi katate-dori.

Rupert Atkinson

Edward 06-09-2004 01:33 AM

Re: Tori vs Dori
 
I have the impression that the Z in zuki sounds more like "dz", but it might depend on the person speaking style...

Don_Modesto 06-09-2004 08:12 AM

Re: Tori vs Dori
 
NIGORI--Thanks, Jun. I didn't know the word for it.

kaeshi --> kote Gaeshi
tsuki --> oi Zuki
sen --> san Zen (1000, 3000)
tori --> kata Dori

Also,
hyaku --> san Byaku (100, 300)
hon --> iPPon (cylindrical thing, one cylindrical thing)
hon --> sanBon (cylindrical thing, three cylindrical things)

saltlakeaiki 06-28-2004 02:30 PM

Re: Tori vs Dori
 
Uh oh, you've hit a nerve :)

I can't help giving the full story, for those who may be interested. This voicing phenomenon (-tori -> -dori) actually has a name in Japanese: "rendaku" (the word Jun gave, "nigori", actually just means to voice an otherwise voiceless consonant). The rule that governs it is sometimes called Lyman's Law, because it was first written about in English by an American of that name, about 100 years ago.

The way it works is actually fairly simple, although most Japanese don't know it (consciously) and would have a hard time figuring it out if you asked them. In a compound word, an initial consonant in the second element of the compound will often be voiced as long as there is no other voiced obstruent in that second element. For those who read Japanese, the way you recognize a voiced obstruent is that it's got a nigori mark (two dots or small circle) when written in kana. Other voiced sounds such as m, n, r, w do not trigger the rule.

It is also more a "negative" type constraint than a rule that tells you exactly when to add voicing. In other words, if there is a voiced obstruent later in the word, rendaku is blocked, however if there is no such sound present, sometimes the initial consonant will be voiced and sometimes not. Thus the fact that both -tori and -dori are permissible pronunciations for attacks involving a hold. I believe that in these cases where rendaku is not blocked by the rule, whether to voice or not maybe sometimes be indicated lexically (i.e. it comes built-in to how the word is stored in native speakers' heads), or sometimes may be controlled by dialect variation.

Hope this has been interesting for the non-linguistics geeks among you :)

akiy 06-28-2004 02:52 PM

Re: Tori vs Dori
 
Hi David,

Thanks for the clarifications! Very interesting stuff.

-- Jun

Charles Hill 07-03-2004 03:48 AM

Re: Tori vs Dori
 
David,

Did you used to work for Asahi in Tokyo?

Charles Hill

saltlakeaiki 07-04-2004 01:49 AM

old acquaintances...
 
As a matter of fact I did... hey, I know you from Endo Sensei's seminars at Saku, right? I'll private-message you my email address so we don't take this thread too far off topic :D


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