When you bow do you worship or just...
 

When you bow at the close of an aikido lesson do you worship or just show honour to a person or philosophy which improves self esteem?

I feel it meant to much when I bowed and had to pray later because of it concerning it.

There are Biblical examples of this such as when Namaan the Syrian who asked a prophet for permission to bow with the others to a false God. And there were many examples with Jesus. Early christians chose death instead of calling the Emperor lord...

What's it to you fellows? How do you deal with it according to your conscience and faith?

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

An often-asked question. Do a search for more answers; mine follows.

Someone in the last few months posted to the effect that it was disrespectful to wash your belt. A more experienced practitioner responded that that must be an American tradition because the Jpn sure wash theirs.

Possibly some Americans worship when bowing. One of my epiphanies regarding Jpn tradition occured once while waiting in my dentist's office (in Tokyo). This old woman came in and...bowed toward the office. Maybe she was worshipping the cruel HA-GA-ITAI DA YO! NO KAMI. I tend to think she was just showing courtesy which is what I take bwoing in the dojo to be.

Let us know what you conclude.

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

It like nodding your head when you make eye contact with someone: a sign of politeness and courtesy/respect (as Don mentioned).

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

Thinking of my intent when taking part in reigi (both in and outside the dojo), I find: courtesy/respect/gratitude/humility. On any given day, the part that fluctuates the most is the humility, I'm sure. I do not detect any reverence or worshipful attitudes about reigi in any of the people I train with in the Jiyushinkan.

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

It depends where you are, I suppose. If you cross yourself when you enter a Catholic Church are you worshipping? Strictly speaking, I suppose that it depends upon what your inner mindset, but at the very least you are performing a ritual of worship. Some dojo have everyone bow to a shrine and/or perform some kind of basic Shinto ritual, some don't.

Now depending upon your religious beliefs, this may or may not be a problem. Despite what many Aikido people say about a gesture of respect, many people have problems with performing a religious ritual outside of their own religious beliefs - regardless of the mindset used when performing it. Some people's religious beliefs even include very specific limitations on what or who can be bowed to (again, regardless of the mindset when the bow occurs).

Japanese people tend to be fairly flexible about religion and religious practices. I've spoken to more than one Japanese shihan (all students of M. Ueshiba) about this, and the response was invariably along the lines of "If you don't want to bow than don't bow". I practiced at numerous dojo in Japan, and I can't imagine that kind of thing becoming a major problem - most Japanese would probably just look at it as another odd foreign quirk. Interestingly, the only people that I've run into that try to hold a really hard line about the bowing stuff were non-Japanese.

Best,

Chris

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

When bowing to the front of the dojo, you are showing respect to all the people that have practiced and taught Aikido before you. When you bow to your instructor, you are showing respect to the instructor who will be teaching you now.

Our style has tried to limit the amount of ritualistic practices that reflect may have at one point reflected O'Sensei's religious and spiritual beliefs, but now are done as dogma by people practicing Aikido. Our Sensei believes that so many Aikido schools have just adopted the practice of going through certain motions without questioning them and understanding their original purpose.

-- Jim

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

Hi Chris,

Don`t you think that the "odd foreign quirk" becomes a major problem when the other members continue to keep that person on the outside (soto) instead of bringing him/her in (uchi)? I have seen numerous times where a non-Japanese insists on doing things her/his own way in the dojo. The Japanese seem to accept it but then they seem to not take any personal responsibility/interest in that person`s progress.

Charles Hill

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

Hi Charles,

If the "out of step" foreigner doesn't seem motivated to get in step, just about all of the Japanese that I've known since the fifties just smile at them enough to not make any waves but don't get involved with them any further. On the contrary, many of them will go out of their way to share with and help those that have an interest in learning and have earned their respect.

Come to think of it, it's pretty much that way in the good dojo that I'm around these days. Whether in Japan or here in the US.

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

Chuck's answer pretty much covers it, but I doubt if the behavior in question would be enough to actually get you ostracized unless you were fairly obnoxious in how you went about it. Basically speaking, foreigners usually get a lot more leeway in Japan than native Japanese do.

Best,

Chris

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

Hey guys, thanks for your replies.

In my experience, teachers and even sempai in Japan are constantly throwing out tests. They might show a little something or make a small comment and then sit back and see what the student will do with it. Most, foreigners (again, just in my experience) seem to miss this(along with a number of Japanese, as well.) I`m not talking about ostracization, but the loss of a chance to move in, as opposed to up.

At a pub recently, my teacher talked about a foreigner who used to train at the dojo. The shihan really liked him but felt that his lack of Japanese language ability caused him to amaeru too much, and this prevented him from really getting to the place where he could receive the shihan`s teaching. I feel that if something so innocent as a lack of language ability could cause this, refusing to bow would be an even bigger block.

Thanks,
Charles Hill

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

Americans often think that not speaking Japanese is not so important, even if they live in Japan - after all, they speak English, which everyone ought to understand! Try taking on a couple of non-English speaking students who speak only, say, Swahili, and see how easy it is to teach them subtle and complex points.

I'd say that Japanese ability is the number one block at the dojo if you're training in Japan - anything else can pretty much be worked out as long as you're able to communicate.

Best,

Chris

Respect vs. Worship
 

IMHO....

OSensei is not a false God. He was, literally, a great teacher, not a deity.

I'm Christian, and my feeling on the whole bowing to the shomen thing is a sign of Respect, not Worship. It has nothing to do with self esteem or showing honor. It's simply an act of thanks.

The Emperor of Rome insisted upon being treated like a God. It was one of the bases of the power of the empire. OSensei may have felt he was the reincarnation of a Shinto deity, but I don't think he demanded absolute submission from anyone. He simply taught.

The bow is just a show of respect and thanks, not worship. It's not a kowtow.

A lot of it is a matter of how you see it.

Does that help?

Yours in ukemi,

Thomas

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

After Ellis' comments about Kuroiwa, I wanted to watch him again on the 85 Expo tape. Fast-forwarding through, I saw several instructors bowing to the banner above the stage which basically said, "Friendship Demo."

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

IMHO, bowing is a cultural means of showing respect.

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

Personally, Brendan, I wouldn't get too worked up about bowing. Then again, I don't get worked up about the lawn either, and the better half, well...

Seriously though, I've known devout Muslims who will not bow, for religious reasons, and never seen anyone give them static about it.

It's also been mentioned that if you don't bow at the person/picture/whatever, that it's not worshipping, and therefore OK. I'll leave it to you to decide whether that is enough for your conscience. 'Course that's also mentioned in a book that the Yoshinkan guys tend to question the veracity of, so...

Ultimately, IMO, you have to be true to your faith. If you can sleep with the decision you choose, then you made the right one.

My cent-and-a-half,
-Noel

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

~~Actually, I use the beginning and ending bows to clear myself as much as possible before class and to be thankful generally for the lessons I received during class. I don't see bowing in any religious sense and therefore have no conflict with it. It is, to me, a form of humble gratitude, not necessarily to any beliefe, person or philosophy~~

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

Dear friends,

In Iceland, you greet each other by rubbing nose...
In Most Western European countries, you greet by shaking hands...
In Arabic countries, you greet by hugging or kissing cheek to cheek...
In Indochinese countries, you greet by clapping your hands in prayer...
In Japan, you greet by bowing and since in Aikido you start the class by seiza (sitting posture) you do a rei i.e., a bowing from a sitting position.
I guess if you do want to you can shake hand with your sensei, if he doesn't mind...

Just my thought...
:D
Boon

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

It can be, or it can (in Japan or in other cultures) be a means of showing worship. It depends on where you are and how you interpret things.

In my experience the usual response to a religious concern about bowing in the dojo is to dismiss the problem by stating that the bow is just a means of showing respect. Respectfully ( :) ), because you believe it to be so doesn't meant that other people also believe the same way, or that they ought to believe the same way. In many dojo the bow and the bowing ritual are clearly connected to religious symbols and ritual. If that doesn't cause a problem for you then that's great, but for some people it's a serious religious question.

In any case, I think that in most instances a simple talk to with whoever's in charge ought to resolve things without making a mountain out of a molehill.

Best,

Chris

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

so then i think i will now prepare by bowing to yahweh tsidkenu and by praying. yahweh is my god the almighty actively present with his people. tsidkenu is righteousness which involves only true worship and respecting and honouring people as due. then at the dojo i will explain this to the aikidoka i think it is and will enact a bow to yahweh tsidkenu with respect and honour to the right persons. a rightly divided heart. a clearer conscience.
thanks.

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

Bowing is what you make it. However, that is a cerebral choice that you make.

The physical position of a bow is nothing. On point, look at the stretches that are in the same position - even seated stretches where you bend forward to the ground. In those cases, there is no question of if there is worship going on, because the mind has clearly made up that this is only a stretch and nothing more.

So?

When bowing to shomen and to sensei (and in greeting/leaving a training partner), it is up to the mind to determine what is going on. If you feel like you are worshiping the high wall, or OSensei or your instructor, it is because you have chosen to inject this into the physical act of bowing. If, on the other hand, you feel like you are only showing respect to those that have gone before, then you are likewise injecting *that* into the bow. Personally, I find that the latter is much more in tune with the need and call for the bow in the first place, and that is where my mind is as I approach the ritual.

Of course, belief is not a conscious, active thing. You can't choose what you believe - not and have it be sincere on a philosophical level. So, if you feel that you are worshiping in your bow, then perhaps you are. I just wanted to point out that that may be something you are bringing into the bow yourself. Maybe that helps you see things differently; maybe that helps you clarify your beliefs. However, do what is right for you.

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

Good day to you Brendan,

If we are responsible for our own actions, then a bow is what we make it.

Or are we God`s automaton ?

I recall at no time in my experience, God requesting that I bow only to God. Only that I seek God.

The one thing we all have in common is that we all make mistakes. Do you think that our Creator would not know this ?

The word "sin," is a Phoenician word that means fall short, and is derived from an archer who falls short with his arrows.

We all do this even when we are unaware of it. Ignorance prevents us from seeing our own sin, and there are many facets of ignorance. Yet God forgives us, so why not accept such a gift of forgiveness, and get on with attempting to be the best possible person that only, you can be.

When the race is run, you may then be confronted by God, as someone who invested God`s talents, and were able to give return more, than they had been origionally given. Not one, who placed their own limitations on themselves, or allowed others insecurity or ignorance, to restrict their own effort, and will to do so. You alone will be responsible, at such a time, not others.

Please accept my thoughts on your thread, and please forgive me should I have given you the impression of being sactimonius, it was certainly not intended.

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

To me it isn't a big deal either way, I bow not because I'm supposed to or have to, but because I choose to respect the tradition and the others involved. I avoid doing things that I think are wrong; people have the right to govern themselves. Hopefully, when anyone bows, they know why they are doing it. Two people could be doing it right next to each other and be doing it for different reasons. Two people could be refusing to bow right next to each other for completely different reasons.
If you can't bring yourself to bow for any reason within your conscience, please don't abandon aikido over it (typical aikido practice spends little time doing it and little hinges on it). Perhaps, some will interpret not bowing as disrespectful or closed minded, but that should only matter if it is being done to impress someone with how virtuous one is instead of placating whatever Power(s) one consigns.
Yet, I would throw out the following (which I hope would bring this eternal debate some resolution). What would you do if I told you that *insert other faith than your own here* did *insert common activity here* as a way of worship? If someone worships the Green Mother by sitting down in a chair and eating food, communes with the 8th plane by sleeping on their side or shows their respect to the inner beast by defecation (a strange sort of deification), are you ready to stop doing all these things? These are all things you can't avoid you say. These are all hypothetical you say (although I made them up, I wouldn't be surprised if people somewhere did all of these). I have to sleep, but I don't have to bow. OK, well, some Baptists have been known to do submersion in water as a form of worship (I think they call it by the same name that we Catholics do, baptism). Anyway, I'd like to see the hands of everyone that is now ready to give up bathing and swimming so that no one will think that they've gone Baptist (or Catholic, or whatever).
I guess it has always seemed to be just another of our very human hypocrisies to me. Then again if your religion/personal belief has very specific verbiage on this subject, I suggest you continue to do whatever will protect your soul/karma and not bother with permission from any other authority than the one it belongs. We humans may even achieve great things if we can just figure out to whom that authority really belongs.
Although I am trying to sound sanctimonious, I'm sure God will continue to keep me in my place (most likely by ignoring me as the insignificant nuisance I am). Though I am not worthy of wiping the dust from anyone's feet, I would still try to lift everyone upon my shoulders.

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

Just on a cultural matter, before addressing the main issue of this thread.... I read that, and mentioned it to an Icelandic friend of mine (having lived in Iceland all her life, yes)... who says that she's never heard or seen that, and that Icelandic people just greet by shaking hands / saying hello / etc. What weird and outlandish customs these far-out little cultures have, hey? :p

On the main issue of this thread, I'll just copy'n'paste what I wrote in the "Aikido and being a Christian" thread:

What I have mainly to offer new to this discussion: on the subject of bowing to a portrait of O Sensei (as is traditional in my own dojo, and throughout at least the three biggest associations in this country). Jesus was questioned about whether or not they, the Jews, should pay taxes to Caesar. Jesus asks them to bring him the coin they use to pay, and they bring him a denarius, and he asks whose portrait is on it, whose inscription. They answer "Caesar's". Thus he says to them "So give to God what is God's, and Caesar what is Caesar's"

Thus I say, give to God the respect that is due to him, and give to O Sensei the respect that is due to him. We know perfectly well that bowing in this context is a sign of respect, not worship. And if we do... All-knowing God certainly does, and understands perfectly.

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

Good post, David E

My two sen on this thread is this:

I have across some sensei who would start the class in ceremonious way, clasped their hands in silent prayer (or with incomprehensive mumblings), clapped their hands twice, then bowed to kamiza (or towards the picture of O Sensei) and then repeat the process twice more before turning around to bow to the class. The bows towards the kamiza were done by the whole class in unison. Those who would not follow the process were always frowned upon and sometimes regarded as arrogant.

I think the knife always cut both ways. Sensei who insist (that students should follow such ceremonies) are just as arrogant in the sense that they ignorant and insensitive to individuals' religious beliefs & sentiments.

As for me, bowing once is traditional (respect), more than once is worshiping. Our collective aim at the dojo primarily is just to train.

David Y

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

Hmm... I just checked some online etymology dictionaries and encyclopaediae and things, because I recalled reading a little while ago that "sin" literally meant "disobediance". The most informative reference I found, that seems to encompass most of what I read in various other areas (including a brief mention to the Greek word for falling short often being translated as "sin" in the Bible), you might find informative: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin. Don't mean to be teaching grandmothers to suck eggs here, I do realise from the "Aikido and being Christian" thread that you are a priest, and taking into account your age you're somewhat older and probably wiser than I ... just thought you might find it informative anyway :)

Seeing sin in the light you mention it does also elevate to greater importance also the humility that tends to come with regular Aikido practice (amongst other endeavours; but this trait, as a general rule, is especially notable in Aikidoka). Seeing that we all make mistakes by necessity, somewhere along the Path, and that that's ok and natural, and good as long as we acknowledge those mistakes and try to rectify them as we go along.

And in the case of religion, praying for forgiveness for our past mistakes, and guidance and help to assist us in ma1king fewer mistakes in future, is usually a strong feature too.

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

Having taught 'orthodox' Jews and Muslims as well as followers of a wide variety of Christian denominations (I hesitate to use the term sect which some may consider pejorative) I have come across all sorts of responses to what some of them perceive as a pagan ritual and an affront to their perception of their Deity.

In Judo, it is a requirement that you bow to your opponent before starting to practice with them and for a contest this is pretty much obligatory. A very high grade Japanese sensei refused to allow a (Muslim) prospective contestant to take part in a competition when they would not bow as he considered that this was an essential part of Judo. However, this same sensei objects to us referring to the 'high seat' as the kamiza because of the religious connotations but prefers the term joza which is an alternative reading and apparently does not have the same ritualistic implications.

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

I heard that you bow to the front, like you are bowing to God, this can be easily changed to the one you believe in, or not.

Anyway, i heard O Sensei wasn't of a particular religion, but was open open to all religions, why would he create a martial art with a procedure that would discriminate against people.


(sorry to repeat anything above, i didn't read the other posts)

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

I feel that it is showing respect to O-Sensei, the art and the traditions of Japan.

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

I bow out of respect.

And I don't mean only in the dojo. If I walk down the street and meet someone I know and have respect for I bow slightly (more of a nod with the head, maybe a slight forward motion of the upper part of my torso). That accompanied with a kind word is my personal way of greeting people (I should perhaps mention that bowing, even as slightly as I do it, is no longer a part of greeting patterns in my country - as it is not in most of Europe). For me it says: "Respect." Nothing more.

A proverb comes to mind, I think it's chinese, says: "If you bow at all, bow lowly."

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

I think it is helpful to keep this discussion from drifting into any particular one direction of religion or dogma. That is, I don't think it helps to answer this question in terms of christianity specifically, or judaism, or luciferianism, or paganism, or buddhism, etc. If we are looking for wisdom in the answer, we should look at the system for finding the answer itself. That is why I very heartily agree with James Chye's post above.

Regardless of the faith, the physical action is separate from whatever embodiment of meaning and ritual is brought to the movement. I think it just important to realize that this baggage was brought by the student, and not necessarily intended or present there in the ritual from the beginning.

YMMV

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

I'm glad that you believe so - just realize that not everybody does.

Best,

Chris

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

Worship
Is the activity of worshiping
.. of ancestors (very common in Japan, Korea and so on)
.. of yourself
.. of planets or stars
and so on
bowing - bending
the head
the body
the knee
as a sign of reverence or submission or shame
in Aikido it is the respect to O´Sensei
personally i´m a strong believer but i does not have any problem to bow down and show my respect to O´Sensei and my Sensei at the beginning and on the end of each Aikido class.

regards
Horst

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

Miha Sinkovec said:
Living in a fairly conservative part of rural Bavaria, I have seen gentlemen who are being very polite, or are in formal situations, or who are simply being courtly, bow, often accompanying a handshake, but not necessarily.

When first introduced to my current landlord, he all but clicked his heels, bowed, then stepped forward to shake my hand. This despite the fact that he was covered in paint and dirt, wearing coveralls and workshoes, as he prepared the house for us to move in.

Walter's my age, mid-40s, but was raised by very traditional parents. It was entirely instinctive. I think it reflected well upon me, during that initial meeting, that I automatically returned the bow ...

I've seen similar behavior more than once, often in military and govt circles, but on the street, too.

A fine older gentleman I've seen out and about will often bow to an attractive woman passing by and say "Habe d'ire" (Bayerish for "I have the honor!" or "Honored!"). Very suave. Very classy. The women seem universally tickled by the act, too.

I cannot think that there's any argument that, to these folks, the bow is anything more than a courtly, polite gesture.

And yes, I still occasionally find myself suppressing a deep desire to bow whilst entering any given room; and did bow upon entering the local chapel for a memorial ceremony not long ago. Nobody thought much of it, though I was a bit amused at myself.

As for me, having no religious beliefs whatsoever, bowing in the dojo holds the simple meaning of polite interaction within the cultural framework of the art I practice.

I've had a couple of folks over the years seek to study with me, but who professed some angst about reiho. My answer is simple: "This is what we do. If it bothers you in any way, you don't have to do it. However, if you train with us, you should comply with the cultural imperative of the dojo, which in this case, means we bow to open and close class and bow to each other."

I do emphasize that to ME, there is no religious connotation.

One of those applicants thought it over, came to class anyway and bowed happily. Another left and sought another dojo wherein he could train under his own terms.

And again, to ME, that's what the question of bowing or not comes down to: Shall I train in XYZ dojo that requires me to adhere to the internal culture, or go to ABC dojo where they'll let me tailor my training experience as I see fit.

I believe that if we seperate the cultural experience from the training, we are decreasing the value of the art. Others disagree, but that's their perogative.

Chuck

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

I think it's pretty clear the bow is a mark of respect and shouldn't be omitted. If one doesn't like the traditions or rules-start your own club dude!

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

Principles, beliefs, are what most people base their lives upon. Such principles that we may have before entering Aikido are enhanced, providing we give those with them a chance to do so. Those without them, will surely develop their knowledge and ability around Aikido concepts and technical knowledge.

Aikido is based on philosophic considerations and technical ability, it is not simply physical exercise, surely !
Or possibly I have been around Aikido too long.


The mortar between the bricks of conceptual Aikido belief and technical ability is -

" Tolerance and Understanding "

If you are unable to show this strength of character, first it may have to be pointed out to you, before you can gain that strength or impowerment. Normally, through the opportunity to build that ability, you may be dependant on others to do so . We need to gain strength in all manner of ways. Similar to Ueshiba Morihei Osensei. In this you may wish to show your respect. How you do so, does it matter ? A bow in the Far east, a traditional response in showing respectfulness, and is also a martial technical self defensive responce . A bow is also utilised in the Middle east and all over the World. As far as I can tell.

A " dude " ( the term used by another writer on this thread ) who has a restricted ability in any way, needs to be taught by the strong, and patient, with the wisdom of Aikido, not pushed out, by the inconsiderate student or Instructor. Who has in that action shown their inept and lack of Aikido ability. One day you may need even the weakest person in your life to enable you. This is a very old concept and one that is still true.

Thank you for reading my reply.

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

Tim Rohr:
Regardless of the faith, the physical action is separate from whatever embodiment of meaning and ritual is brought to the movement.

Christopher Li:
I'm glad that you believe so - just realize that not everybody does.


My statement was not directed at those of a particular mind and simultaneously against any critical thought or information that might change their belief. Those sorts of people aren't interested in discussion, anyway; they're far more likely to make speeches or sermons - one sided conversations. I more address those people who are searching for an answer to this who might be ready to consider that, for example, there is a muscle-stretch position very similar to the seated bow. Should that stretch also not be performed because of the physical position the student gets into? Hardly. The difference is the mindset of the student. Does the physical position make the worship, or does the intention of the student make the worship?

Of course, there are other opinions, as you point out. I am guessing you did not understand the 'YMMV' at the end of my post, else I don't think you would have posted with such pithiness.

YMMV = 'your mileage may vary' ...a nod to the fact that others may hold other ideas.

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

Oh, I understood it. Does that mean that I can't comment on the other parts?

My point was that your statement is typical of a commonly held view in these cases - that because I believe a certain point of view to be reasonable that other people also ought to hold that view to be reasonable. In real life, however, what happens is that other people have their own reasonably held beliefs.

Best,

Chris

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

Hi Chuck,

I agree with you on this but am wondering why you think this is?

Charles Hill

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

Charles Hill said:
To me, the study of budo is more than the study of physical combatives. In fact, if you read much of the stuff that falls out of my head and fingers online here, you'll note that I espouse the idea that budo, per se, is not about fighting, not about the physical combatives, at all. The physical activity is a tool through which we learn certain principles, rather than specific actions to respond to physical violence. The principles are learnt throught he actions, and the principles are what is important ... the activities are the method of transmission. They cannot be separated and one cannot be fully learnt without the integration of the other.

If you study budo, then I believe you should be examining the root and trunk as well as the branches and leaves.

There are usually fairly specific philosophical, historical, practical and esoteric underpinnings to all the budo (in some of the syncretic or synthesized gendai arts, such as kendo, judo and iaido for example, this might muddy a bit, but not so much as it cannot be identified with some exploration -- they are still Japanese-based arts, built upon the foundations of earlier sword or jujutsu systems, in those examples) ...

If we take budo as a set of nominally combative systems derived from historic Japanese sources, then to know the budo, you must, I think, know the origins, the history, the secular and spiritual attachments (not that you have to BELIEVE them, but should aspire to understand and know how they affected development of the art and how they affect its structure and theory).

If you're practicing a budo, any budo, and not examining those things, you might be happy as a clam never knowing those things, and that is, I guess, OK for some folks.

However, I beleive that by exploring all those facets of the art you choose, that you will only enrich your expeience, and further, I beleive that only by delving into those aspect of your chosen art can you truly integrate the art and understand it at the deepest levels.

If Joe Snuffy is perfectly happy dressing up in dogi and playing adult romper room a couple hours a week, and is happy about it, without rooting around in the cellar to find out WHY he does ABC when uke does XYZ, or why you stand THIS way and not THAT way in THIS situation, or why you EI! when you thrust and HO! when you cut, fine.

I just think he's missing a lot.

And truly, at the lower levels, it's not essential to know these things ... but as we advance, if we don't explore more deeply, then we're cheating ourselves of the richness of experience that the budo offers.

In terms of what constitutes a budo, I think if you teach the physical aspects without the underpinnings and esoterica, that is becomes not-budo.

Call it wrestling, call it personal combatives, call it adult romper room. But 'budo' to me, infers a connection with and exploration of the whole of the thing and not just the external.

And therein lies the path taken when we discard bowing, trade dogi for sweats and t-shirts, ignore Japanese terminology, start mixing in things from other traditions without fully having a grasp of the original art or the add-ins.

Chuck

Re: When you bow do you worship or just...
 

Chris Li -

"Oh, I understood [YMMV]. Does that mean that I can't comment on the other parts?"

I quoted your entire post, save for the closing, wherein you only quoted one line of mine. What more did you wish to comment on?

Which part of my original post did you think was not covered by the YMMV comment I tagged on to the end? Which of it would you consider blatant opinion that I had not acknowledged with the YMMV? If you intended to comment on another part of my post, perhaps you should have, though I assure you it was all covered under the YMMV tag.

The point of posting here is to share these reasonable held opinions and to read other reasonably held opinions... to share knowledge and discover knowledge. To that end, I post, hoping to cause someone of a different perspective to raise questions in why they do what they do. Why, for instance, must a bow before the shomen wall be any different than respect? Be any different to bowing before working with a partner? Be any different than bowing before working with a weapon? Or, at the very least, be any different than a stretch (if the participant wished it to be so empty)?

If they still have a different opinion after I raise these questions with them, that's their prerogative.

However, not all stances are equal in all things. There is an objective truth to the question of if a person does worship by kneeling and bending over. The trick is that this is determined in the person's mind before the question is even formed. If they believe that they do, then they do. If they can get past that and believe that they do not, then they do not.

Or should we say to someone that they are indeed worshipping when they do not believe they are? Should we say to someone that they are worshipping when they type on a keyboard? When they sing? When they dance? When they close their eyes and rest? Absurd. The person answers for themselves if they are worshipping.

After all, that's their opinion.