Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
Quote:
The Power of Aikido is best expressed when you are completely relaxed.. are breathing with your whole being... and have calmly accepted your opponent as a part of you.... The breath can be understood in one practice but can take along time to completely understand how to apply it depending on the desire of the student to practice it. O'Sensei practiced Misogi diligently everyday for sometimes hours on end The relaxation "part" is the baseline for understanding how to use your entire body and your senses.The simplest way to learn how to practice Aikido is when you are physically exhausted... Then with proper guidance you will discover how useless pure physical effort is in Waza and may begin to experiance the first stages of how to relax under duress and blend with the energy of your opponent using your posture and center properly....Much to your surprise you may find your Atemi starts to be allot more effective and that you move more economically with less effort in blending with an attackers "intention." Our Aikido's footwork and movement is radically different than either the Hombu or Iwama styles...We half step and use small circular blending movements which with good posture and breathing can generate tremendous power...We also give Uke several opportunities inside each "teachnique" to stop the fight and reconsider his actions... There's a start for you my friend and I will gladly go from there when I get the chance....:) William Hazen |
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
Thanks, William Michael (coindentally, also my son's name)... :)
I dunno... it's too vague for me and sounds too much like the off-repeated mantra of keep training hard and one day you'll get it. Perhaps you could be a little more specific? I have a couple of problems jiving with your explanation: 1. "Completely relaxed", to me, is an oxymoron... when I'm completely relaxed (a couple of cones would do that nicely)... I'm pretty much legless and useless. So how do I remain "completely relaxed" without going off into la-la land? 2. How do I "breathe thru my whole being"? What does that mean? What's involved? 3. OK, assuming that I can somehow "completely relax" and can "breathe thru my whole being", and my opponent and I are One with the Universe (have another bong, bro)... where then does this "Power" (of Aikido) come from and how does it manifest itself? 4. I ain't no spring chicken and I'm getting on in years... everything I do is physically exhausting... why, just walking up the stairs is enough to wear me out... so how can I apply Internal Strength™? Is there a way to learn AikiPower™ without being physically exhausted first? 5. What do you mean by "using your posture and center properly"? Can you be more specific? I guess what I'm asking is how do I get good at this Internal Strength™ in Aikido quickly? And how do I get "stronger", faster? Which I presume everyone else contributing and/or lurking would want to know as well. I see Rob L. has beaten me to it with his other thread... basically, I need you to fastrack me.... friend... pal... buddy... so I can practice Aikido™/Aiki..do NOW and not when I'm physically exhausted, gasping for breath (yeah, I know I know... gotta give up those bongs) and at the point of keeling over from being completely relaxed. |
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
Quote:
Quote:
The next time you do randori or aliveness training try if you can to note where the muscle tension is in your movement. Is it in your upper body or arms. Do you find your self pushing through a throw ending up with your hips back and your head forward? Perhaps it may be better to check this and see first Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogi I don't know...It's what O'Sensei did and it seemed to have helped him. :) We don't have it as a regular part of our practice but I notice those who practice some type of Misogi seem to be more relaxed. :) I have been practicing Zen for the last 20+ years or so and that personally helps me too with my breathing. Quote:
You do practice Aikido right??? Are you telling me your never "felt" a physical connection with your Uke? Been too busy being focused on technique and imposing your will have you? Well one thing that is exciting about this whole IMA deal is the idea that what took me years to discover about Aiki Power can simply be practiced with a few basic exercises...and I am looking forward to learning them from these guys... Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Namaste' Williamc Hazen |
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
@William Hazen:
Thanks for taking the time to reply... in case people aren't aware... my questions were phrased as a beginner possibly would and are firmly tongue in cheek... ;) So please take it in the light-hearted, semi-serious, jovial manner in which it was asked. Yes, and in case anyone is wondering... the answer is NO... unlike the other Bill, I never inhaled...:D I'll not address individual aspects of your post which, I feel, superficially glosses over the real meat of the topic... and that is... how has Aiki...do impacted one's Aikido™ (for Ricky... you can also hold down the Alt key and type 0153 on your numeric keypad). Suffice to say, I did not find anything new or ground-breaking in your posts, although I do appreciate the time you have taken to address my inane questions... really. :) I can see the karate influence, but... shiko dachi and zenkutsu dachi tells me very little about how these training postures are used to generate AikiPower.... much less how "using your center correctly" even whilst in shizentai can generate power. I don't know if the superficial treatment of these is reflective of not wanting to do so on an open forum, or because you don't know me from Adam's or something else. Perhaps you could speak to some of these "basic exercises" (in Aikido™) which are used to develop AikiPower™, with a little bit more exposition on the "what" one should be looking for within the practice of these exercises. TIA |
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
No worries IT all in good fun.... But before we proceed let me ask you a few questions....
What do you know of Misogi? How long have you practiced it? How much time each day do you devote to practice? How many of the few things I have mentioned do you or have you practiced? You see I am puzzled by folks who expect Aikido to perform miracles for them when they have not put in the work or only practice at the dojo twice a week. Folks want enlightenment but they do not want to sit Zazen...They want Kokyu but they do not practice Misogi or any breathing exercises for that matter. They want to move effortlessly but they never train tenkan They want knowledge but they do not want to study themselves to get it. They want it handed to them. I have never experianced any shortcuts or simple way to achieve these things Now perhaps Dan or some have some tried and true methods which make the task simpler and easier to achieve Kokyu power and for that I am all ears and eager to take ukemi.... So how about it Mr IT? You say you're frustrated with your practice and your not getting any older Start with Misogi and we'll talk in 6 months :) If you don't notice a distinct differance in your efforts at practice Well then... The stinky Puna Purple Haze be on me Brah! Take Care IT. :) William Hazen I wish the good Reverand Barrish would contribute to this thread on the importance of Misogi to Aikido practice...Hopefully he feels so inclined when he reads this. :) |
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I don't disagree that time, effort and commitment to practice everyday is required. But that's not the point of the question.... I can show someone in 2mins how to throw a bigger/stronger person simply by standing in hanmi, with arms outstretched. Usually takes them about 5mins to actually "get it", depending on how fast they can create and maintain the necessary synaptic and proprioceptive pathways. Sure it might take them a few months or years (depending on how much and how often they practice) before they can do it at will and on-demand, but at least they get the gist of it up front - not after years of hit-and-miss self-discovery. So if you believe that Aikido™ already has this AikiPower™, and that this IMA/Aiki...do is no big deal, why not share what you think "it" is... for everyone's edification? |
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
Shaun Ravens has made a couple of excellent posts these last few days on misogi. I'd like to comment from my own experience, and I think it is related to the thread topic:
Assumption: I've seen and trained the commonly-taught misogi under Abe Seiseki shihan and his deshi, and pretty much the same thing physically under direction of both the of the Italian Aikikai and the British Aikido Federation. So I think I'm talking about the mainstream-taught and commonly-known misogi here. Therefore I merely ask the readers to refer to Aikiweb threads discussing misogi for a general overview. Falsifiability: if there are other misogi I don't know about, or methods to do them that I don't know about, I'm prepared to reconsider my statements below. Statements:
Best regards, Gernot Hassenpflug |
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
Quote:
Gosh IT I have done my best to explain it and I guess I just don't know what I am talking about.... :) As such there is nothing further to explain "it" and it seems like it might be time for you to look elswhere for the answers you seek from me... I leave you with a story which illustrates my feeble attempt to convey the awesome internal power of Aikido to you via the World Wide Web. :) "The nun Wu Jincang asked the Sixth Patriach Huineng, "I have studied the Mahaparinirvana sutra for many years, yet there are many areas I do not quite understand. Please enlighten me." The patriach responded, "I am illiterate. Please read out the characters to me and perhaps I will be able to explain the meaning." Said the nun, "You cannot even recognize the characters. How are you able then to understand the meaning?" "Truth has nothing to do with words. Truth can be likened to the bright moon in the sky. Words, in this case, can be likened to a finger. The finger can point to the moon's location. However, the finger is not the moon. To look at the moon, it is necessary to gaze beyond the finger..." Namaste IT. :) William Hazen |
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
Quote:
Quote:
|
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
Quote:
Let's review... Aikido's internal strength comes from Misogi Tenkan Irimi Ohhh and it's important to learn how to relax...LOL :D Not good enough of an explaination for an accountant I guess... You want the technical details...I looked back to through my archives and other than doing what O'Sensei did and following the encouragement of Shoji Nishio to look outside for ways to better Aikido...I don't know how many times I can repeat myself... Now if you want a technical explaination then perhaps you should wait until I attend a seminar with one of the fine folks here...Then maybe I can gather enough information to "proof my arguement" in writing... Quote:
William Hazen |
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
Quote:
Hmmmm, I guess a good place to start here is by asking a few simple questions to level the playing field.
Quote:
Quote:
My sense is that every person who steps into a dojo starts off with the physical aspect of the art. This is how it should be. From a physical perspective we have techniques (waza) and various sorts of movement (sabaki - te, tai, ashi, koshi... etc.) These are the outer forms, or empty forms of Aikido. Misogi, too, has an outer form - all of the specific practices (gyo) from which it is comprised. The gyo are, in an of themselves empty. They are often seen as spiritual, or even worse, religious in nature. Religion is also an outer form, in and of itself empty, but that is another thread in another forum so I will not address that here. I do not believe that practicing misogi as a spiritual or religious form is either needed, desired or will assist someone to understand the art of the founder. I say this because the founder said it, and also because in the manner in which it was taught it was entirely devoid of those elements. However, I think we can safely say that a person can practice techniques for decades and be as far off from discovering even the deeper physical aspects of Kokyu, moving with Kokyu, and throwing with Kokyu, but again these things are all (mostly) physical in nature. They are not what lies at the heart of Aikido because, just as the sign says, "There are no techniques at the heart of Aikido." This is where misogi-no-gyo comes in. However, I believe it important to say that I don't think misogi is, or should be used as a substitute for training, rather it is a supplement to the training, and in this manner should be approached at the very beginning of one's path in order to both augment and deepen it in a way that would not be otherwise possible. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
. |
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
Quote:
Quote:
|
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
Quote:
|
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
;)
Hi Shaun, Oh yes you are! And you are right... Best, Ron |
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
Quote:
On another note, I actually stumbled across Popkin Sensei's seminar this past Friday evening. (Hi Howard) I was only able to observe, so I really could not comment with any certainty as to the relevance to these discussions. However, what I will say is that it reminded me of the first class on the first day when I met Abe Sensei. My journal entry that night read, "Ah Ha! Magic does exist." I would imagine that these were merely basic DR-Aiki concepts filtered trough an aikido paradigm (so as to be easily absorbed by the uninitiated Aikidoka) rather than the mid or higher level DR techniques I would like to see and experience. Alas, I was a bit misty-eyed for those guys knowing what it was like to have my eyes snapped wide open for the first time. While it may certainly be humbling, especially given the number of years some of the participants have been on the mat, there is no time like the present to open oneself to enlightenment. . |
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
Mr. Ravens,
I'm very sorry you didn't jump right in with us. In my opinion, the more the merrier. You are correct, many people on the mat that night had more then 35 years of aikido experience.....and yes.. those were intoductory training tools. Thanks for the nice words. I will send you a PM. Howard |
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
Quote:
Think back to the interview of Tohei in Aikido Journal (I think it's the first of a 3-part interview) where he describes O-Sensei's idea of why the hungover Tohei shouldn't be able to do the "unliftable" demonstration. Regardless of O-Sensei's religious mysticism, Tohei could still do the "unliftable" demonstration by "dropping his center".... because the core principle is the same. Now someone may want to keep some exotic or esoteric explanation because it's colorful, but if they can really do these things, the baseline discussions by a number of people should be easily understood, even if those descriptions are a little bit different from what one is used to.... because "dropping your center" or "using the groundpath" are pretty obvious contextually, if you really know the subject. The people who argue "their way" seem to be the people for whom the common conversation doesn't ring obvious bells, in my experience. "Misogi" is fine... but why not also show that you physically know how to do these things, if you really know how? It would create so much harmony. :p FWIW Mike Sigman |
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
Quote:
What's not to understand???? Again Misogi Tenkan Irimi Are any of the "descriptions" of Aikido's Internal connections beyond your intellectual grasp??? According to most including you nope. So then where am I lacking??? A simple anatomical explaination of Misogi??? Tenkan???Irimi???? Does anyone here not know how to practice these correctly??? The problem with your line of questioning I would humbly submit is the assumption of a pre-determined outcome. Namely that because I cannot describe it I cannot have grasped it...because heck everyone else "in the know" can describe it and in simple terms too!!! So why can't you? LOL I don't know how many times I can say I have difficulty describing "it" but because I do I yawn through cheap shots via innuendo. I offer myself up to learn the concepts Honor folks for what they know and yet the boorishness continues...I will continue acting in the spirit of Aikido by humbly accepting some posters points of view that I am ignorant and silly... Again Misogi Tenkan Irimi The man I learned this from and most of his senior students did not speak a lick of English... After almost 20 years of practice I barely know the Japanese names for Aikido Techniques and still can't fold the perfect Hakama...However it's been shared with me that I am not that bad when it comes to Aikido...:) and all I can say is words had very little to do with that...Hence my gift of the parable IT...When I first heard it It was to make this exact point... Though I did not know it at the time. I had to discover and experiance it for myself. After years and years of Misogi & Zazen...I still don't understand what the hell I am chanting...I just follow direction and chant....That my friends can still open up the universe... I may be in Kindergarten when it comes to this stuff but at least I still love to go to school Anyone with any ability to teach "it" is more than welcome to show "it" to an eager audiance at our Dojo and we will humbly share what little we know. In answer to Dan's set of questions... He and I are exactly alike in spirit and our spirits were embodied in Shoji Nishio Shihan. I am always seeking to discover more about "it" and to embrace "it" enough that I may share "it" with others. That is what Sensei wanted and he had O'Sensei's blessing to do so... I want help in anyway I can to contribute to the growth of Aikido... To nuture it's roots in Aiki to share it's spirit of love and harmony with others and there are dozens of Dans out there along with Abes.. Gleasons... Nadeaus... Tanakas...Yoshidas...Fowlers... ect ect ect All looking to grow Aikido and pass it on From the deepest root of Aiki to the highest branch of Harmony So where are "we" at??? Standing right here rooted solidly to the ground... ready to learn and humbly share our oh so brief experiance with those who come after us. :) The Bodhisattva Way William Hazen |
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
Quote:
But what bothers me most is the idea (which you've floated before) that the topic cannot be engaged except in some sort of personal trial at your dojo. This is similar to a current poster who wants to see videotapes of everyone in combat, talk about his income and college degrees, etc. I.e., "what has this got to do with the topic at hand?". This is not the "Tao that can be named is not the Tao"... this is the baby steps to the Tao (it really is, BTW) and it can certainly be discussed functionally. If you want to see some drawings from Chinese and Japanese showing diagrams very similar to the ones I've used on this forum, let me know. The idea that a person who knows can't articulate the basics does not stand up except within a group who simply doesn't know the basics. I gotta say that I'm a little disappointed with some of the levels of debate that I've encountered by too many "spiritual" people, in my life. And trust me, I don't have that attitude simply because I've never broken heads. Regards. Mike Sigman |
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
Quote:
SO... what I AM saying is that repeating the same old tired mantra seems to be falling on deaf ears... find another way to get thru to the other person... |
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
Caution - HELL is freezing over... I am about to publicly agree with Mike Sigman - over and over and over! Well, mostly agree, anyway.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
As for creating harmony - GET REAL, dude! While you may have great internal skills, your external skill set is still in its infancy. In any case, FWIW the spell checker thingy is right next to the submit button. Be well. . |
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
Quote:
Quote:
Please with all due respect Sifu Sigman Drop the Rock... Quote:
Anyone else who shows up to teach us will get the very same respect and friendly atmosphere in the spirit of love and harmony. We only ask that you leave your ego at the door in the same bag we leave ours in before we bow and enter. :) Sincerely, William Hazen |
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
Quote:
1. Yes, the same. Since you're spent upward of 10 years with Abe shihan and I only three, you can judge for yourself if and how the teaching changed over time. All I know is that on the one hand Abe sensei's closer deshi say that he teaches far more, and more explicitly, than say 10 years ago; and on the other hand, the misogi training for students has effectively been stopped even at gasshuku owing to various political correctness and social problems (first the ladies', and finally even the men's). Maybe I could say that the dojo-cho's instructions on o-takebi/o-korobi and torifune's three variants was more detailed than at some of the other places, but it was not any more so than the training in general: emphasis on the center, stopped breath, sounds, etc. 2. Stated goals: well, this has been unclear to me from whichever source. Not only to me, but to others in the dojo too, except in extremely general terms which again do not provide concrete and specific useful tools to work with. Concentration on and lowering of center, relaxation of shoulders and so on. This is partly what I mean about not being stage one. 3. Oops, this is where I think you misread my post. I wrote that I think misogi *is* not stage one, rather than what its goals might be. I have now a particular view of what the goals of misogi are and how the practice achieves them, but I do not think that they qualify as stage one or entry-level methods of training. 4. I am not qualified on this point since I do not have detailed instruction over a long period of time, and I believe I am currently training stage one with other more direct methods which are akin to the direct method which I believe Abe shihan was implicitly teaching by having us always stand in the straight arms and straight legs posture for the entire class. I will therefore only say as pure speculation on the *physical* aspect (leaving aside owing to inexperience that I think physical and spiritual cannot be divided) that misogi-no-gyo will have in the long term extremely strong effects on the connective tissues of the body, including the skin, making the body extremely strong and pliable with very good connection and inter-control of all parts. I think your body shows very good evidence of that, as does Abe shihan's, although I am afraid I cannot say the same for the vast majority of his students except insofar as they are still young. Quote:
The above is my opinion, I am not claiming that it is correct, nor the only way forward. /../ Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I hope this long-winded post does not elicit an equally long response :D Best regards, Gernot |
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
Quote:
Well, I planned this one to be very short. Only because a full reply would take me half a day to compose. In any case, while the value in my opinion would at some point be good for many who have not been exposed to the depth of Abe Sensei's instruction, I will only reply to the general tone of your last post. I just want to say that I truly appreciate both the humility and honesty with which you replied. I mean, I just about fell out of my chair when you said: Quote:
. |
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
Hi guys
We seem to have once again successfully gone beyond debating the reality of "it," So, instead of debating each other can we stick to the thread and talk about how folks are training it and how they are trying to incorporate it into their aikido. Shaun You raise some interesting points. I think the straight arm / straight leg method is so rudimentary that I wouldn't even consider it. a) How long would he train people to do that before he moved them forward? b) How did he move them forward?. c) What do you do internally when you do your misogi? d) Is it in line with Abe sensei or different? Just how does Abe's misogi or other methods affect his technical expression of aikido? In what manner? To another point. I'd probably be careful of sensei comparisons. They remain a hot button of who got what and whether or not the tescher changed and when, and each students own perception of the quality of that expression. Example: There are those that are abso-freaking-lutely convinced that Kannai was the bomb and had it all. You don't want to know my opinion. And one of his students told me it was because I never saw the "real deal" from him.' I said "er....oookay." and never talked about it again. I had a bagua teacher try to toss me and instead he bounced himself off of me in front of his student. The student defended himself and his teacher. I have seen that same student singing the praises of that teacher all over the net about how awesome he is. How do you have a successful and meaningful discussion with the student on the internet? You can't. Students are convinced their teacher has it or they wouldn't be there would they? So if we want to talk about teachers, why not just skip to technical discussion instead of teacher / student relationships; who got what and when and so forth, and instead lets focus the discussion on: What 'it" was, and if it was worth the having. Otherwise I'd just as soon skip the teacher thing all together and talk about what WE are doing. Thanks |
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:04 AM. |
Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.