Yokomenuchi: exterior entry?
In my dojo as in a lot of styles the basic entry is an irimi or irmi tenkan with an atemi to the head of uke while the other hand deflect uke's attacking arm.
This is all well and good, except that, just like other interior entry you always risk running into uke's free hand. Anyone with a good martial foundation will keep the other hand in their front arc ready to protect the face or to counter attack. And the free back leg... Then I saw this one:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_-EV00Ih70 I really like this exterior entry. Keep you away from both the free arm and leg of uke while positioning you behind and into uke's guard. However I've never seen this before and the vid was too fast for me. The circular downward cut of yokomen is too wide to irimi outside and it's hard to deflect uke's right arm with your left arm like in this vid. Anyone familiar with an exterior entry for yokomen? Vids appreciated! :) |
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Yes, I'm familiar with a few variations of this entry. I don't have any videos right now.
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Re: Yokomenuchi: exterior entry?
Could you please describe? Or any video on youtube that shows something similar :)
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I'm familiar with this entry for it is part of our kihon waza.
This may not be, what you are looking for exactly. But It shows part of the way how we start learning this entry. It can be done with lesser or even no contact before going "through" the atacking arm. |
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That is a great execution of the entry, but this is also how we do it in our dojo. Isn't it still a frontal interior entry? When he enters he is still in the front arc of uke, and then he ducks out back. I'm looking for the entry that position you outside of the attacking arm and to the side and back of uke, not in the front arc of uke's body.
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Why not simply do an irimi motion , taking you behind your partner, after the initial movement which if done correctly neutralises your partners attack?Cheers, Joe. |
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In our teaching what is shown in the video you posted, is develloped over time from what you see in the video I posted. |
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We teach to practice slowly, make contact with the arm and then swing in / fold in the elbow joint and lower arm while stepping through. Hard to describe instead to show. But in the end the steps, the feet are much more important than the deflecting movement of the arms. With some experience it is sometimes able to do this without contact. |
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In Iwama Takemusu Aikido we do exterior entries fagainst yokomen uchi for certain techniques, both in kihon and ki no nagare form.
This is Saito Sensei explaining and showing the points regarding these movements. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ouo6auP9Fc In aiki, Ethan Weisgard |
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The thing with this is that when you do your atemi, it is just perfect distance where you can reach uke, but uke can't reach you (by a few cms). If uke (1) can atemi you or (2) you have an overreaching atemi, then you've entered too deep. If you have stepped to the side too much then you cannot reach uke for an atemi. These are the tests IMHO for the proper distance. Stepping to the side also provides the necessary extension to properly offbalance uke. If you've entered deep, then uke will just pivot around his sphere. You need to extend him outside his sphere. I've attached Chiba-sensei's vid. Although it's too fast, he steps to the side. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HErZfPCybfU movement with katadori is the same http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dPmuXtqE_E |
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Neither of the two vids you show of Chiba Sensei are irimi movements.Of course the movements are correct [as one would expect from Chiba Sensei] however neither have direct entry INTO the yokomen attack.Chiba Sensei neutralises both by absorption of Ukes forces. Back to the drawing board methinks???Cheers, Joe. |
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As I understand it (I mean that phrase very loosely), if both sides are alive and you don't suppress aite's center, that's when you get hit. Also, my gut says trying to enter through an arcing cut from the outside is like trying to squeeze an egg (which is of course much easier to break from the inside), which to my mind would seem to support the idea that he's actually connecting to the strike from the inside to draw it further away from aite's center (off-balancing slightly?) before attacking from the outside. ...Looking again at :27, it looks like both arms/hands connecting almost simultaneously...which still looks like a bit of inside first to draw off center before cutting down from the outside...although, again, my eyes aren't that great, let alone my level of skill. Any further analysis would be greatly appreciated! Take care! |
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This is how we practice yokomenuchi in France. As you see there's a lot of circular movement. The idea is great pedagogically, to teach proper taisabaki and ma ai, but IMHO not the most effective martially speaking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZef071snTM |
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Well, here in France Christian is considered the "Aikido Prince", and his dojo's waitlist is always full. I've not had a chance to attend one of his seminar as yet. But the way he does it is basically how most of the France's aikido organization does. It is very centralized and not as fragmented as in US. My dojo has no affiliation with Christian's whatsoever but from our Yudanshan who have trained with Christian they say the techniques are the same.
On the subject of effectiveness my Sensei said this technique works very well in an Aikido curriculum, where the attack has a fixed form and people don't really use the free hand. Outside of that I don't know, but I spar regularly with some friends in karate and jujitsu. It's impossible to irimi into their tight inside guard unless you want a hook to the face. Could you elaborate on how to do that without blocking AND circular movement? Appreciated :) |
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Well, I suppose it's hard to make aikido works if your partner knows what you are doing and is allowed to counter it. |
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In the first clip Christian absorbs the yokomen , keeping Ukes attacking movement at chudan /Gedan level, then he enters and proceeds with Irimi Nage.The second clip he enters with a forward motion , restrains the attackers arm then , slipping the arm , he then proceeds to again do Irimi nage.Both methods are of course aceptable.Hope you are well, Cheers, Joe. Ps I always thought Sekiya Senseis contact was much more subtle. |
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I have a feeling I'm messing up terms and concepts again. Is this along he lines of what you're looking for re: video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3se1IDWbyE
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AAA dojo do yokomenuchi entries very much as shown in the Tissier Sensei video. With the second entry it is important to start to take Uke's balance at the moment of contact with his arm. Then, depending on which is more effective, we will cut Uke's arm up or down to lead into the technique. We use the back of the wrist, right at the joint of the hand and wrist to make the initial contact with Uke's arm. From what I've been told, if one were using that entry against a person with a knife, a cut to the back of the wrist would be less disabling than a cut to the inside of the wrist.
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.......and that's why soldiers have been shaving their head since the beginning of time. He's also smart to teach them the one technique they can never use on him, or me for that matter. LOL! (i.e. hair grabbing). Baldies rule!
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